Please save us. Anyone help!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[91_GSTBaby]

I don't want to take up all your guys' time but I am OUT of ideas.

Please if ANYONE can help me with this I would be in DEBT to you!

Heres the story:

I purchased a 1991 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS-T with 86k on the clock. Red in color, she is definatly pretty. A/T Transmission, and a clean engine bay.

I took the car over to my parents house to show them after I purchased it, and the battery died. I put the jumper cables on to jump start it and like a total idiot I put the jumper cables on BACKWARDS.
After I saw the huge sparking at the battery terminals I quickly switched them to proper polarity and began to attempt starting it. The car just wouldnt start. Turning over and turning over it chugged and wouldnt fire. Eventually after a few attempts it FINALLY started. Running as if it were on 2 cylinders, it wasn't revving and had 0 power whatsoever. Ashamed of my stupidity I pushed the car in the drive way where it has sat for over 2 weeks of my trouble shooting.


Talked to a couple dsm guys online and did some thread re-search and found that I most likley fried my ECU, TCU, and possibly the wiring harness.
After I pulled my ECU, I took a look at the board and saw a white smokey patch about 2" on the board. NO fish smell though, just the smokey patch.

Talking to Lenin (Bigred16G), he told me that I might as well go DSM LINK and upgrade to my faults. So I bought his EPROM ECU, DSM Link V2.5, his 450 CC Injectors ETC all for a great deal. (He's cool.)

So I got the package, installed the ECU, downloaded V3 of the software (which is confirmed that it works with V2.5), fully connected beautifully, and set all of the DSM link settings to stock (since its a bone stock DSM.)

After everything was good to go, I jumpered the dead battery, and couldn't get it to start up. Turning over as if its out of gas, I could NOT get it to fire. Just over and over.

Talked to some more buddies, they said to check fuses, so I did. Went out and bought 14$ worth of fuses and replaced ones that didnt need to be. Checked spark plugs for spark, DSM Link can click the fuel pump on no problem, and i am getting fuel to the plugs. THere slightly damp, and smell like gas after short attempts to start.

So with spark, fuel, and fuses all good, I figured DSM link was incorrect with the MAF compensation tab.

Posted a log of my attempt to start the car, and Tom Dorris @ ECM Link said there is no reason what so ever for the car not to start. The settings are all good to go.

Still no joy, I start hearing people reccomend the CAS being the problem. So I volt meter the plug wire harness side of the CAS and get back 13V, and 4.9V from the plug. (Manual States this is perfect.)

Check the CAS PINS themselves with the meter for resistance and I only get readings for about an 1/8th of a second. They will not stay on the meter screen so I don't know if that means my CAS is bad or not. I was really trying to avoid pulling the CAS loose so I can test to see if the fuel injectors are clicking because I do not have a readily available timing gun. If the CAS is what you guys all say, then I'll buy one, and get a timing gun.

After checking the CAS, I checked the CTS Coolant Temp Switch wires (green wires) coming off the thermostat housing to be torn (this too would stop the starting). Those wires are good as well.

My next Idea from a buddy was to put the stock 450CC ECU Chip in the EPROM slot instead of DSM Link, and try that. So I swapped chips, and now I have a constant check engine light with the old chip in place, but the engine now wants to start more then ever. Chugging, and ALMOST firing up it seems with the old EPROM chip in place it wants to start a LITTLE more then with dsm link. Just a TINY bit more.

So thats where I am. I hope I didnt post anything that has already been discussed, but I highly doubt my situation is on these forums.

- Fuel is getting to the plugs
- The spark plugs are sparking perfectly
- The CTS Wires are good
- The CAS Plug is delivering perfect readings
- Clean air filter, oil, oil filter, injectors, ETC
- Fuel Pump is activating
- ALL Headlights, taillights, dash lights, fuse box lights, fuses EVERYTHING works.


All I can think of is two things:

-CAS itself is bad and is throwing the ignition timing off causing it to not start/run terrible

-390CC Injectors @ 43.5 PSI with an ECU that is compensating for 450CC @ 37 PSI is causing it to be too rich, bog and fail to start. (Even though DSM Link people say that it should still start with the MAF Comp tabs at 0%, or +6% to compensate for the fuel.)

Intake temps, coolant temps, 02, MAF readings are all right on with Link.


Please anyone, from the DSM gods above PLEASE someone help us. She's in need guys, badly.


Also, the BOV was vented from the ricer guy before he sold it to me. So I bought some hose and vented it properly.


Again thank you ALL for ALL your help. This is no longer a DSM LINK Related topic so I'm bringing my problem to you.


Thanks SO MUCH!

Josh

 

[1995gsx20g]

Call me crazy fellas, but I think i'm obsessed. In the mist of all these problems...


(copy and pasted from my other thread)

So my g/f really is better then yours. Next friday that 1991 Eagle Talon TSI is mine Shes gonna buy it for me! I went over there today and took a further look at it. 120K on the clock, A/T transmission, BONE STOCK. Like so bone stock it still had the spark plug wire plastic holders in place! BOV return hose, the whole she-bang.

This guy bought the car brand new in 1991, and has done straight mistubishi/dealer oil changes/maintence on it since. He has all this paper work on the tire changes, oil changes, everything. I turned the key on, check engine light came on then went off and boost gauge is @ 0. = ECU is operating.

Interior is fully intact but needs some cleaning. The guy is very straightfoward, very laid back. He has the title, and the car's registration is upkept and paid for but its currently registered as a non-op. It has been sitting for 6 years, and the tires sort of have dry rot. Other then that, it turns over when jumped and he says would start but the gas is 6 years old. He is the original owner though.

He said the transmission kicks into neutral when driving sometimes. Theres also a slight knock sound from the motor when turning over and he said he just parked it when the knock sound started.

He said hes not a mechanic so he doesnt know whats wrong with it. Just the knock and the tranny kicking into neutral. It idles fine, revs good, etc. (I couldnt actually get it to fire up.) I ran a dry compression test on it, which came up with some interesting results. Each cylinder was over 120, but each attempt would change sometimes it was 120, other times 150. Nothing ridiculous low.. but it may be in need of a rebuild soon.


$500.00

1991 Eagle Talon TSI A/T with 120K & clean paint.

Shes mine boys. I figure worst case scenario it costs me like 2K to fix it. Its still a TSI oreo!

hardcore dsmer in the making

 

[blackrosenova40]

Thats a good idea except he says he sees good temp with Dsmlink

check out your coolant temp sensor mine wouldnt start and i spent day trying to figure out and relized it was just the coolant temp sensor, easy fix if it is the problem!

 

[91_GSTBaby]

Ok, lovely information people.

Compression Test:

DRY:

90-90-0-0

Wet:

210-60-0-0


Doesn't that just make things feel warm and fuzzy? I need to be locked up in a insane asylum.

Also, I bolted in my ECU and my MPI relay. My MPI relay is clicking after each attempt to start the engine. As it did before, so I am grounded there and still no fire.

So I unplugged my MPI relay fuse, pulled my plugs/wires, and turned the engine over quite a bit. Didn't feel any air coming from cyl #4 with my hand, but the other 3 were pumping air.

I didnt see any fuel spray out. After that, I put my plugs back in, (confirmed spark once more), plug wires connected, MPI relay fuse in, disconnected fuel pump. And Turned the engine over. This time it felt like it wanted to fire more then ever on the first turn. Kept turning it over after a while, I pulled the plugs back out and they were dry! My injectors/fuel line were no longer supplying fuel.

Plugged my fuel pump back in, put the dry plugs back in, and started cranking. Again nothing. After a few cranks, pulled the plugs out and they were sort of damp, smelled kinda like gas. Fuel pump must have sent fuel.

After this I began the compression test. After each turn over, the next plug was getting wetter and wetter with gas. Seems the fuel pump/injectors are spraying the gas but my sparking spark plugs wont fire it.

So thats what Im at.

90-90-0-0, 1,900$ into this DSM and it looks like I might need a new head.

Thanks again guys.

 

[motomattxxx]

I dont see how the head would have went bad just because you connected the jumper cables backwards unless somehow you turned the engine over backwards.

 

[91_GSTBaby]

I just went to re-attempt the compression test, except this time I had my gf turn the car over while I held the gauge, and each revolution the gauge would bounce from 10-80, back and forth 10-80 and then when I told her to stop it would just go to 0. That was on the same cylinder that I got 90 on originally.

Do you think my compression gauge is no good? I think the oil that got up inside the compression tester line is messing something up.

I will buy another gauge and try it tomorrow but either A the gauge is shot, or my engine is shot. Can't wait to start diagnosing the Talon. Maybe I can get her running. I can easily swap transmissions, I know my GS-T's tranny works. I wonder what the knock on the talon is from... hmmm


Well If anyone has any other ideas about my GS-T let me know please. I'll try another gauge tomorrow.

 

[Gasolinebaptism]

Well it's a ####ed gauge.
A compression gauge is supposed to hold at the highest pressure that is supplied. If it goes back to zero then it obviously doesn't hold the pressure, let alone giving you the correct spike pressure.

 

[okm12346]

you had the gas pedal down to the floor , right?
while doing the compression test, I mean.

 

[JetGSR]

Would you believe I am here in Australia tring to fix exactly the same fault!
not my car but a friends VR4
Slightly different story but same problem, running motor out of a car going into a body that had a motor that broke.

using ecmlink - we have not been able to get the car to start on 4 cyls yet!

have been able to get it to run on 1 cyl! (you can tell by feeling the exhaust!)

the battery was reversed the other day! (not by me)
mind you it didn't start before that and apparently the mechanic had running on number 1 cyl - where after the reverse polarity blunder, I seem to get it to run only on number 4,

but same details as you! wet injectors, spark at all four plugs, cas OK!
different ECU, leads, plug etc etc etc!

My educated guess is that the injectors are firing but not for the correct cylinder.

otherwise in theory it should start! base timing is set for 5 deg!

To the thread starter! you can set base by removing plugs and timing it to the timing marks while you crank it over! yes it is a little harder at 200 - 300 rpm
but it will at lease get you close to where it should be!

I am having another play today, if we have any success I will posty our findings.

One small worry I have is .. If the reverse battery damaged a part and now that part is an ECU killer, it is going to be very hard to find!

As every new ECU you plug in will die! <-- this i think would be rare but will a reverse pol batt anything is possible!

Will keep you posted! GOOD LUCK TO US BOTH!

Troy aka JetGSR <-- in sunny Australia

 

[RedVengeAPX]

I'm having the same problem you are, except on a 2g, tomorrow I'm doing a compression check, holding the pedal to the floor, clearing out the cylinders, checking the timing***again***

I'm right with you to the point where I just want to get another DSM. A lot of good suggestions in here I hope one of them works for me to.

Josh good luck getting your car running, I read somewhere a working DSM and a girlfriend that won't last long, guess it holds true

 

[91_GSTBaby]

Well, yes good luck to ANYONE who has to go through this. I just bought my new DSM. 1991 Eagle Talon TSI, beautiful oreo. I will take pictures of it tomorrow, and get it up on here.

As for the GS-T I have no idea what so ever. I have lost all ideas towards it. I will buy another compression gauge tomorrow. I will do a new test, and get back to you. As for the new talon I am going to swap the battery out of the GS-T and check all the vitals.


-Thanks again,


Josh

 

[JetGSR]

we are at a stage where we think the 2nd ecu isn't anygood neither!

we did however get it to run on 2 cylinders, and it would start and run on 2

I'm down to replacing injectors and rail for known good ones (only as a precaution as the ones fitted to the car are quite a bit larger and different in impedance to the stock ones!

I still believe the loom may be a ECU killer as we did fix a few sus conections that were grounded when they shouldn't!

 

[91_GSTBaby]

Well fellas, I went through my new talon today.

-New plugs
-New Oil/Filter
-New Fuel filter
-Drained 6 year old gas w/new 91 octane gas (flushed)
-New Battery

I can get it to fire up with starting fluid, but it wont stay running. I'm assuming its not getting fuel after I drained it all. I will try to check the plugs tomorrow for fuel on the tips, and get back to you guys. It does have a knock though. I wonder what it is.

AS for the Eclipse, I have almost given up. I appreciate you guys with the same problems reporting back. However, I am so impressed with the starter fluid I tried on the Talon, i am going to take some over to my eclipse and attempt to start it with the starter fluid. I figure... since I am getting fuel to the plugs, and I have spark, if I can get it to start up with the starter fluid, the fuel should keep it running. If that doesn't work I give up. I am so upset at myself for being obsessed with these cars. How in the world did I manage to buy 2 of these, both not running, and willing to spend 5+K on them? It doesn't seem right.

When this thread is all said and done it should be a sticky. And re-titled, "TROUBLESHOOT A NO START"

 

[JetGSR]

it will start with "start fluid" we here in AUS have something called "Start Ya Bastard"
and it does exactly that!

It will kick, run then die!

Have you changed the ECU?

will the ECU from the new(old) car fit the Old non starting car?

 

[91_GSTBaby]

Yeah I can use my Talons ECU to try to start the car but Its not that. I have tried my EPROM 450 CHIP, my DSM Link Chip, etc.

 

[Dark_Horse]

Did you re-do the compression test?
Did you try starting the Eclipse with starting fluid?

Since it seems the Talon needs an engine rebuild, why not swap parts over to the Eclipse? You have all the parts there needed to start the Eclipse since you can take them off the Talon.

Swap the plug wires, coil pack, MAF, wiring harnass & ECU and see if it fixes the no start problem.

 

[Achelea]

Okay, I wonder if anyone really explained what might happen if you hook a battery up backwards.

As I've read through the thread I see this. (This is so everything is in one post)

Bought the car and drove home (This establishes that it does run when everything is fine.)

The battery died over night. (My car did this as well, turned out my alternator and battery need replaced. Autozone said they were both good, but I swapped them out myself and it seemed to fix the problem)

You hooked the charging cables backwards, and it shot sparks. That pretty much means anything that gets initiated during starting was getting power the wrong way. After this, it pretty much died and you've been fighting it ever since.

You have replaced the ECU, TCU, the chip etc etc, fuses etc etc

What is catching my eye is the Fuses being burnt. It sounds like to me you need to start chasing wires, because for the fuses to get hot enough to carmelize, they are getting WAY too much power. Which means some where in the wiring they likely shorted out. When you test the ends they let power through because they are not severed, just touching. Have you tried disconnecting both ends of the wiring harnesses and performing a continuity check between the pins? With it disconnected on both ends, they should have NO continuity. If you got continuity you have burned wires.

Just because something works fine doesn't mean it cannot have a short.

There was a story about a guy that his glove box would pop open at random. He got pissed and opened it to leave it open. With it open the car started to act crappy. He reached over and closed the glove box and the car straightened right up. Turns out there was a short with the glove box light, when it was open, it was shorting out his ignition system. Weird, huh?

 

[motomattxxx]

I have a feeling that your socketed ecu may be no good, which means swapping in link, or a different eprom chip wont do you a bit of good, get an ecu from a RUNNING dsm and install it, or install your ecu into a running dsm to see if it still runs.

 

[91_GSTBaby]

Ok guys.

I did try to start the eclipse with the starting fluid. (Nothing.)

VERY surprising too because that stuff is awesome.

I pulled my car apart this afternoon and wanted to check the timing alignment marks. After rotating the crank shaft about 15 times, I have yet to see the marks align properly.

Proper Alignment:
Intake Cam/Exhaust Cam Eyes or "pins" = 12' Clock
Intake Cam/Exhaust Cam Timing Marks = 3'clock & 9 'clock


My alignment:

Intake Cam Pin/eye @ 12 'clock
Exhaust Cam pin/eye @ 10'clock (ALL DAY LONG)

As for the timing marks on the cam gears, I rotated it 15 or MORE times accuratley and slowly, desperatly searching for that 3'clock/9'clock combo, and they never once showed signs of that. In fact, when one gear is @ the correct position the other gears timing mark is like 3"+ away. I could rotate it another 20 times, but its never going to line up. Plus, when my belt is completely loose in the revolution, I can push the timing belt itself down like almost 2" in slack. It is extremely loose. I am assuming my belt jumped time by like 6+ teeth, and after my 700 attempts to turn this motor over and the lack of a good compression gauge my engines internals are questionable. Because of this I am not jumping on the "tear my talon apart ordeal."

In fact, my talon actually starts and runs correctly. I just have a problem getting fuel to the injectors (i just drained my tank, and I dont think my system is pressurized yet.)

I was told there is a fuse to remove and try to crank to re-pressurize the system, but I havent figured that stuff out yet.

So, I am assuming this is all coincidence. I bought the car, and because it started, idled, revved, and pulled hard I figured the timing belt was ok. When I pulled the upper cover off when I brought it home, the belt was in great condition so I didnt question anything. The tension of the belt was firm when I first pulled the cover off, so I guess I didnt catch it in the "revolution" that makes it 2" of slack. So at some point, when it slipped into the "slack" revolution, it probably skipped teeth numerous times, providing my VERY bad timing results. The backwards battery probably damaged a few things that I have tried to replace, but I don't think this engine has much chance firing up with the timing this bad.

So heres the real question guys.

What do I do?

Should I put it all back together, go out and buy a brand new compresison gauge, turn it over and report back with the results?

Should I do a timing job, and tighten up/align everything while I'm already halfway through the job? Is it worth the time/money for a new belt if my internals might be damaged?

I don't see the point in testing the wiring harness/grounds or anything like that right now because my timing is in severe need. As for the talon, I haven't messed around with that yet, but I know it has a knock, and the tranny needs replaced. (I can swap my 80K Eclipse Tranny into the talon no problem).

But the knock could be a valve, or cam cap, or all kinds of things.

So as I stand, both dsms may be in need of a head rebuild.

The eclipses motor, MAY still be in tact, I guess the only real way to confirm the internals is to run a new compression test on the motor. Like I said, with the timing belt the way it was, the car ran excellent for being that far off.

OR MAYBE:

The last physical time I drove the eclipse, I gave my mom a ride in it. MAYBE on that drive itself, it skipped more teeth then ever, and the timing became that far off RIGHT before the battery cable incident.

Again, thanks and please give me your ideas.\

PS. None of the fuses were actually getting burnt. I only blew my dome light fuse out of them all. As for the alternators fuse getting hot/brown goo inside it, I checked my talons alternator fuse, and it has the same seal/goo stuff so thats totally normal. Yeah, it got hot, but that may be the blown alternator from the reverse polarity.

I havent tested my alternator yet, I still dont see how that would affect the starting. Maybe if its shorted out its causing a short in the harness or something. But like I said, this timing is bigger issue.

 

[Dark_Horse]

I'd re-time it and then redo the compression test. That will tell you whether anything was damaged. No reason to buy a new timing kit when you may have to take it all apart to rebuild the head.

Also, you can borrow the compression gauge from Checker/Advance auto.

 

[motomattxxx]

If your turning the engine the wrong direction to check the marks you will cause timing belt slack and you can make it jump time!!!

 

[Achelea]

Sounds like the auto tensioner gave away. Under normal driving it seems to be just fine, but if you romped on it, the belt went wide slightly, (Since the tensioner was not keeping tension) and it skipped teeth.

If anyone reading isn't sure what I mean, take a string and drag it over your forarm really fast. See how the end whips out as it slings itself off your wrist? Belts will do that as well when it goes to WOT, and then off.

Time for new valves, guides and belts. Though while you have the head off you can probably check the bearings too. fresh upper rebuild. Then you would have a stout motor.

Not too bad. At the very least, you've replaced parts that most don't deal with til later.

 

[91_GSTBaby]

The site wont let me access page 4. Any ideas mods? Ive tried a couple different people they are saying the same thing!

 

[Achelea]

it is now.

 

[Calan]

The site wont let me access page 4. Any ideas mods? Ive tried a couple different people they are saying the same thing!

Sometimes a thread will show another page, but there won't be any posts on it. Once another post is added, it will show up on the new page.

**************

As for your problem...

If your timing is that far off and the marks never line up, there is no reason to keep cranking on it. The only question now is whether or not you have bent valves.

You could try a cold leak down test. It won't be very accurate without the engine warmed up, but you'll know pretty quickly if you have serious leakage from valves that aren't sealing. Since you'll be manually rotating the engine to put each piston at TDC, you can also listen/feel for the piston hitting the valves as it comes up. And if you haven't done it already, pull the VC and look for loose rockers or other problems, and watch the valve train as you rotate the crank (manually, with a socket).

If you can get each cylinder to hold air while at TDC, you may have gotten lucky (ehhh... extremely lucky). If that's the case, you may be able to put new timing components on it and get down the road, at least from a mechanical standpoint. But unfortunately I really don't think that is likely.

Regardless, it can't hurt to put some air to it and see what happens.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/338152-compression-test-vs-leak-down-test.html

BTW - Something definitely wasn't right with your compression test results. Sounds like you had a bad tester and may not have been doing the test correctly.

EDIT:

If your belt did jump, you'll be past true TDC when the valves are closed, so you'll be injecting air with the piston starting it's downward stroke if you want to check for the valves sealing. This makes the test a bit difficult since your motor will want to turn with the air forcing the piston down. You may need to use a breaker bar or something to help keep the motor from spinning.

 

[91_GSTBaby]

Wow. I am just exhausted .


Ok, Wet/Dry Leakdown test was performed today on the Eclipse.

DRY Leaking %

1 - 60%
2 - 65%
3 - 62%
4 - 61%

WET Leaking %

1 - 61%
2 - 63%
3 - 59%
4 - 60%

I used a Harbor Freight Cylinder Leak Down Gauge.
I also did the test twice. I know that its wise to check where exactly the leak is coming from, but when I checked the first two CYL, I COULD NOT find the leak. I checked oil cap, oil dip stick, PCV, Breather, BOV, TB ETC. The only place I could hear it coming from was the CYL right next to it! I assume this may be a bad headgasket between the two cyl, or the valves are SO shot its leaking into another set or something. I could only hear the pressure coming out of the other cyl on 2 of them. The other 2 didnt leak from the cylinders but I couldnt locate where it was leaking. You can hear it clear as day down in the spark plug hole, but the seal was solid. I tested it like 3 times.

So what do you guys think?

Call for this yet? YouTube - Military Taps


Thanks again for all your help.

The hardest part is trying to figure out how backwards battery cables caused this. I guess it didn't. Well, LONG HARD lesson proves 2 things.

1. Never, ever assume.
2. Just because the symptoms of the sickness point to some vitals, check all of them.