Permatorque Headgasket holes in block covered...?

[phunny]

So I had the standard ARP's and a permatorque HG and at 30+psi the head was lifting. So I ordered L19's and another permatorque HG and as I was prepping the block I noticed that some of the holes were of different sizes and some hold were just covered up by the permatorque HG...

Here are some pictures and you can see were the HG does not even have a hole in a couple spots and on the left side you'll notice a small round hole where there should be a large teardrop shape... Is this okay or what's the deal?

 

[LiquidX]

Just curious, how is the head and block surface since you are using a MLS gasket?

 

[kchaazz]

Some of those holes are always missing on the 4G63 headgaskets. Flip your head over and examine the ports on the head side and youll see why

 

[phunny]

Just curious, how is the head and block surface since you are using a MLS gasket?

The head is at the shop right now being resurfaced and I'm going to have one of the machine shop guys come check the block. I checked it with a metal straight-edge and from left to right it looks fine but in between the cylinders from front to rear the level will wobble like there is a high spot on the thin piece of metal between the cylinders.

Some of those holes are always missing on the 4G63 headgaskets. Flip your head over and examine the ports on the head side and youll see why

I wanted to do that but it's at the shop.

 

[Kapok6]

Just throwing this out there, when I talked to Fel Pro about their MLS gasket (I have one) they recommended an RA finish of at least 30 if not finer and als recommended hi tack sealent. They said in their tests it held up better than copper spray.

 

[donniekak]

There are many different views on the subject of head gasket sealing. This is a good read. As for the holes, you will see when you get the head back.
The Truth About Racing Head Gaskets

 

[Boostinsideways]

Are your running a fel-pro MLS? Those things are like prohibitively expensive, the cometic and even oem are a better price.

 

[kchaazz]

Personally, Id try the copper headgasket that FFWD sells if you need that kind of sealability. This gasket is comparatively priced with the Felpro permatorque, with the bennies of soft copper, self sealing oil and water ports, AND, most importantly, its got its own gas wire, whichll give you the benefit of an oringed setup without the expensive oringinghttp://www.ffwdconnection.com/headgaskets.shtml

 

[Calan]

Personally, Id try the copper headgasket that FFWD sells if you need that kind of sealability. This gasket is comparatively priced with the Felpro permatorque, with the bennies of soft copper, self sealing oil and water ports, AND, most importantly, its got its own gas wire, whichll give you the benefit of an oringed setup without the expensive oringingFFWD Connection - Race Injuns That Will Freeze Your Brain

Personally, I would stay away from a copper HG on anything but a dedicated race car. They'll seal great, for about 3 heat cycles. And then you'll be re-torquing the head on a regular basis to keep them sealed. At least that's what I've noticed on most other platforms.

Short of a full o-ring job and composite gasket, the Permatorque MLS + L19s (A1) is probably about the best HG combo there is right now.

 

[LiquidX]

I'd agree with Craig on this. I talked with MAPerformance about copper gaskets since they used one on one of their vehicles and while it did seal well, you do have to keep up with the torque on the head since it's such a soft material.

You would still want to have a proper surface finish even with the copper gasket just like a MLS for proper sealing. If you do not have the requirements then run a composite gasket. They have been proven to hold more than enough pressure than most people run. O ring the head for even more sealing.

Paul runs 40+ psi on his compound setup using an o ringed head and composite gasket.

 

[Boostinsideways]

From my understanding, the Fel-Pro is only slightly less forgiving with sealing due to the coating it uses.

A good machine shop will be able to get a cometic to seal just as easily.

Jus sayin.

 

[LiquidX]

.

A good machine shop will be able to get a cometic to seal just as easily.
.

Again, since it's a MLS you need to have a specific RA# for the sealing surfaces. Pretty much a mirror smooth surface to properly seal.

 

[phunny]

I already have the gasket and L19's the big question is am I going to have to pull the block out now...

 

[Calan]

From my understanding, the Fel-Pro is only slightly less forgiving with sealing due to the coating it uses.

A good machine shop will be able to get a cometic to seal just as easily.

Jus sayin.

In addition to the coating, the Permatorque MLS uses a different fire ring design and different specs on the sealing surfaces. They are quite different.

 

[BogusSVO]

How did you clean the HG surface before you checked the block?

The 4g piston to deck clearance is close from the factory, so decking the block can only be done once maybe twice before the pistons start popping out the block at TDC

 

[phunny]

How did you clean the HG surface before you checked the block?

The 4g piston to deck clearance is close from the factory, so decking the block can only be done once maybe twice before the pistons start popping out the block at TDC

I haven't yet, I'm still trying to find the best way. My machine shop guy gave me a large piece of 50grit sand paper and said I can get something large and flat and clean it using that but I'd like your opinions before I do. I was thinking about getting a metal stud (for hanging drywall) and using that + sandpaper to clean the block. And if needed I'll order a copper HG (which he recommended) and run that till the next rebuild.

 

[donniekak]

If i were you, i would pull the block, get it oringed, and use a composite gasket.

 

[bryanwheat]

I personally wouldn't touch the block with 50 grit sand paper. A good scraper at the right angle will take that right off.

 

[phunny]

If i were you, i would pull the block, get it oringed, and use a composite gasket.

That was the plan for the winter or next summer because I wanna switch to some HD's.

I personally wouldn't touch the block with 50 grit sand paper. A good scraper at the right angle will take that right off.

Agreed.



UPDATE:

The block is perfect, the metal ruler I was using was bent.... WOOHOO. This is why it's alway a good idea to have the professionals come take a look for you.

 

[BogusSVO]

50 grit may would be a bit too corse, I would use 80-100 grit

Sounds like your machinist like the same method

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cylinder-head-short-block/413772-how-clean-head-gasket-surface.html

With what you have on your block, 15-20 med/light strokes should clean iy up about perfect, you are not trying to shine the surface again, you may see some light "dye" light marks from the old HG once you are done.

You will have some light scratching, but it will not be deep.
If you like grab a old head or block and "dull" the sand paper

 

[bryanwheat]

There really isn't the need for any sand paper. A good scraper will clean it and not scratch the surface like the sand paper will.

 

[phunny]

50 grit may would be a bit too corse, I would use 80-100 grit

Sounds like your machinist like the same method

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cylinder-head-short-block/413772-how-clean-head-gasket-surface.html

With what you have on your block, 15-20 med/light strokes should clean iy up about perfect, you are not trying to shine the surface again, you may see some light "dye" light marks from the old HG once you are done.

You will have some light scratching, but it will not be deep.
If you like grab a old head or block and "dull" the sand paper

I knew I read that article on here somewhere, thanks for the link. Now I just need to get those darn guides out.

 

[BogusSVO]

get the guides out? you mean like this?
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341218-how-change-valve-guides-4g63t-head.html

Are you going to bronze guides? or just back OE style cast guides? Cast guides come in .001 and .002 if the guide bores are a touch loose for std ones

 

[phunny]

get the guides out? you mean like this?
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341218-how-change-valve-guides-4g63t-head.html

Are you going to bronze guides? or just back OE style cast guides? Cast guides come in .001 and .002 if the guide bores are a touch loose for std ones

The 2 guides on the block for lining up the head. Those nasty little boogers.

 

[BogusSVO]

oh head alignment dowels

find a 1/4 drive socket that barley slips inside it, then lock vice grips on it and twist, they will spin right out, and if your good, you will not mar them up and be able to tap them back in and reuse them