Not running properly NEED HELP!

[LiquidX]

I'm having some major issues right now with the idle tune that is on here. First off I'd like to say that I have been trying to learn how to do this stuff but it gets over my head at times.

This was all logged on ECMLink v3

I had Eric (Turbosax2) help me out last night at his house and we both became stumped on this issue.

I have FIC Bluemax 1250 Injectors and the car is only happy when they are listed as anywhere from 900 - 1100 with a very high deadtime. He told me that it should be closer to the injector size with a lower dead time. We managed to get it idling but during WOT the car spits and sputters as my LC-1 gauge is reading 9:1 AF. Any other place it's adjusted to the car runs like poo.

I am also having idle surge going on; new ISC, FIAV bypassed via bottoming out the spring, boost leak tested up to 30psi and passed. I had a major leak out of my brake booster since the old line was scrapped by the mechanic and replaced with regular fuel line. Put a new check valve in line and it blocks boost. However I could feel air rushing out of the booster in cabin and perhaps it has a vacuum leak now too? What should I do now?

I have noticed that my ISC and learnedidleadj are both reading high (80-100ish/190ish). My base timing is set 5*. So I don't know how this happened either as they were working before fine and the ISC is NEW.

I have 2 logs, the first one is a cold start after sitting over night (hard to start and idle) and the second one is a continue of the first with some shutting off to show start ups. Please help me out as I'd like this figured out soon since I need my car for DD and work.

So what exactly is going on with my logs and why is my car not idling happy and what is up with the injectors and everything else you can see?

 

[Calan]

Need the logs Scott.

I'm running FIC Bluemax 1250's at a deadtime of 540us and calculated to flow 1250cc. (I think the actual flow as tested at FIC is more like 1254, but close enough).

From my experience, FIC injectors are pretty damn accurate compared to their reported flow numbers; I think you have something weird happening, and should probably assume the injectors really flow 1250 with a deadtime somewhere between 450 and 550.

Are you running on a MAF or SD?

 

[LiquidX]

Sorry, I thought I uploaded the logs

Eric was stumped on this issue and he knows a lot more about this stuff than I do. At 1250 settings the car would barely run and he tried it up there and the thing was just not working out. Hope this stuff helps out.

Stock MAF

 

[Calan]

Well at first glance (and I'm a bit groggy)...

1. You're MAFComp is perfectly flat except at the very bottom, so I'm guessing you haven't worked on it yet. You are adding fuel at the lowest points, but it looks like you might need to pull some air here. (A vac leak or GM MAF in blow-through will play havoc with the bottom 2 or 3 sliders).

2. Global fuel is way off...it should be somewhere around -64% for gas on stock 2G pressure

3. You have NB simulation selected and the front O2 selected for WB, but no inputs configured for logging the wideband in the pin inputs. Not sure how that is working.

4. It doesn't look like your idle switch is working. I assume that it should still be active even though it's simulated from the TPS on a 2G (one of you 2G guys jump in on this one)

 

[LiquidX]

Well at first glance (and I'm a bit groggy)...

1. You're MAFComp is perfectly flat except at the very bottom, so I'm guessing you haven't worked on it yet. You are adding fuel at the lowest points, but it looks like you might need to pull some air here. (A vac leak or GM MAF in blow-through will play havoc with the bottom 2 or 3 sliders).

2. Global fuel is way off...it should be somewhere around -64% for gas on stock 2G pressure

3. You have NB simulation selected and the front O2 selected for WB, but no inputs configured for logging the wideband in the pin inputs. Not sure how that is working.

4. It doesn't look like your idle switch is working. I assume that it should still be active even though it's simulated from the TPS on a 2G (one of you 2G guys jump in on this one)

1. I'm only trying to get the idle set and injectors dialed in, I haven't even though about movement adjustments yet. I just know that after what Eric did my WB was reading 9A/F on a WOT run which caused jerking and sputtering. I'm still wondering about a vac. leak as the system was pressurized to 30psi fine but my brake booster was leaking (no check valve) could that be damaged now after a check valve has been put in and the brakes work fine? I'm running the stock MAF too.

2. Running 43psi fuel pressure and when we put in what was calculated for injector size and fuel pressure the car ran like complete crap with lower and higher dead times. It started running better when it was set for a lower injector size.

3. The first log I didn't realize that the stuff wasn't inputted properly. The second log has everything fixed with the LC-1 in the front o2 input location.

4. The TPS switch was working on it's own before idle switch simulation was selected as well.

I don't understand why learnedidleadj doesn't move at all and that the IAC is sitting at 96 with the car off. It should be 144/30ish

I looked in both logs and you are correct, the idle switch isn't turning on and I'll have to fix that. That shouldn't cause the fuel issues though?

 

[Calan]

Well, I would personally assume the FIC numbers are correct unless you have a reason to believe otherwise (got another set you can toss in and get yours flow tested?).

Given that ^, set everything in Link so that you are correctly modeling your fuel delivery (inj flow rate = 1250, DT = 525 ish, base FP = 43psi, global fuel around -64%)...and then start figuring out what is up with the airflow. If you are sure you don't have any vac/boost leaks, the most likely culprits left are an inaccurate airflow measurement getting to the ECU (bad MAF?), or incorrect numbers being used to model that airflow (MAFComp sliders).

The injector deadtime will make a difference in how well it idles and whether it runs rich or lean, but it won't be all that much with those injectors. I can adjust my DT with the 1250's from around 450 to 585 at 850 RPM idle and the car still idles fine...a few misfires and the AFR will change a bit, but it still idles.

As you know, you don't want to "tune" with injector or airflow values...they should be set to accurately represent your setup...then you can use target AFR and timing for tuning. So assuming you don't have a freak set of Bluemax's, I think you have an airflow issue somewhere and tweaking the injector parameters is just masking it.

BTW - What type of plugs/gap and how's your ignition system?

 

[LiquidX]

Well looking over the forum a bad idle switch will do some funky things at idle. I'll get that changed and see how it looks.

Also is it possible that the brake booster is bad after all the PSI that has been through it? It was leaking out into the cabin pretty bad and I read that it's a closed canister. Car off still takes 2 pumps to get it rock hard so I don't think it's an issue but could it be possible there is still a vac. leak there?

BPR7ES at .028 gap with NGK wires

 

[Calan]

Well looking over the forum a bad idle switch will do some funky things at idle. I'll get that changed and see how it looks.

Also is it possible that the brake booster is bad after all the PSI that has been through it? It was leaking out into the cabin pretty bad and I read that it's a closed canister. Car off still takes 2 pumps to get it rock hard so I don't think it's an issue but could it be possible there is still a vac. leak there?

BPR7ES at .028 gap with NGK wires

It's possible...could have ruptured the diaphragm. Since you are just working on the idle at this point, just disconnect the booster and plug the connection at the IM. That will eliminate it as a possible problem. And if the idle gets much better when you do, well there ya go...

 

[LiquidX]

I guess that will be a solid starting point then.

So if the line gets blocked to the booster and the idle switch turns on and I'm still having issues where should I go from there with fuel issues? I should assume the IAC and Learnedidleadj should start moving since they only work for idle purposes.

 

[Calan]

I assume you have checked base timing, BISS adjustment, etc...

I have a feeling that you will see some major improvement with a working idle switch input and bypassing a (possible) leaking booster.

Do you have a boost/vac gauge? If so, how much vac does it read at idle right now? See if it changes when you disconnect and plug the booster line. You could also put some vac on the booster with one of those hand vac pumps (MniVac) and see if it holds.

 

[LiquidX]

I adjusted my base timing to 5* over at Erics house and it was previously set at 10* from when the garage did it after putting in my 6 bolt.

The BISS is screwed in just about the whole way because of this issue that I was having so I'm sure I'll need to change that again.

Yes I have a vac/boost gauge -30inHg 0 45psi. At idle it reads right around 19 or 20 and I would have though it was to be around 15 with 272 cams (non Kelford )

I won't be able to check this stuff until tomorrow because my car is a bit loud for the neighbors. I'm a nice guy

One other thing I noticed, should the timing be jumping around all over like it was in the logs. It was at 10*+ and at a few points at 20*. Is that normal for it to be like that?

Craig, thanks again for the help. I went and started to adjust the idle today and sure enough turning on the idle switch helped greatly. I can't get idle lower than a grand since my BISS is bottomed out. How do these logs look now? A few shut off on me pre maturely so they are a bit shorter than the others.

 

[Calan]

Scott...

That looks much, much better. The ICS still looks a little odd, and I'm guessing it's maxed out due to the BISS adjustment issue. Are you grounding the diagnostic pin when adjusting the BISS?

Timing looks perfectly normal...if you ground the timing connector ("Misc" tab), you should see it drop to 5* and remain stable. AirFlowPerRev seems a bit low, but I think now it's just a matter of tweaking MAFComp and injector DT to get it dialed in a little more, once the ICS/BISS is adjusted.

 

[LiquidX]

I always wondered what the diagnostic pin check box was for...But no, it wasn't grounded out. My Lrndidleadj is still sky high and not really coming down and cannot figure out how to get the ISC and idleadj down. I found out that my brake booster is fine as well so there is no vac. leak there.

I uploaded the stock Evo 8 fuel and timing maps as well.

 

[Calan]

Any updates Scott?

 

[LiquidX]

No, my ISC and lrndidleadj are still high and I don't have any vac. leaks either. I was told in another thread that if my idle is fine, don't worry about the numbers but I'm not sure if I should just forget about them or continue investigating.

 

[Calan]

I would continue investigating...it may be idling now, but have issues if the weather changes very much.

Sounds like your ISC is still out of it's adjustment range. If you ground the diagnostic pin in Link, can you adjust the BISS and drop the idle?

You can log ISCPosition in link and see where it is at while adjusting the BISS; it should be somewhere around 30-35 once your idle is set to around 800rpm IIRC. If you don't ground the diagnostic pin, the ECU will keep "correcting" the ISC as you adjust the BISS, until it finally runs out of adjustment range.

EDIT:

Damn terminology...I'm so used to ICS (Idle Control Solenoid), instead of ISC (Idle Speed Control).


Have you seen the VFAQ on the 2G BISS adjustment? http://www.vfaq.com/index-main.html. I assume that Link is performing the same function as the Data Tool they mention for 2G's when grounding the diagnostic port.

 

[LiquidX]

I did ground the pin via Link and the idle intially dropped to about 800 then went back to 1000 and cycled around 900-1000 where it's set at in link. The ISC didn't really move much while I did that.

 

[EagleTSIawd]

Hey, I know this thread is a few months old but I am having a similar problem. I have the BM 1250's and I couldnt get my car to run right (I took them out and put back my good running pte 780's). It would slightly sputter at any rpm eventhough I had my combinedft near zero, airflowperrev at .25, global fual at -64, and deadtime at 525.

So im wondering if you got yours to run right and what was that you did to fix it? Im thinking I got a faulty set

 

[LiquidX]

You might want to go and post up a log. Mine is running fine now, I don't recall what was changed. Are you running speed density or on the MAF still? Also you have your wideband and other sensors logged?
I'll be glad to help you out though as will others.

 

[EagleTSIawd]

Yeah, I'm using a GM MAF. Il give them another try this weekend and grab a log with wideband included.

Thanks

 

[EagleTSIawd]

Alright, here is a small idle log. For me, everything looks on the settings but the car was not idling smooth. It would make random pop noises and my idle would not stay steady at 950.

Cruising seemed fine (I didn't grab a log on that), its just the idle that has me stumped. From what I understand, these injectors are supposed to idle like stock, or are they?