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ECMlink New SD setup Hoping to have some "wiseman" check my logs

Tony J

Proven Member
32
6
Oct 2, 2020
Belleville, ON_Canada
Just recently converted to speed density, I have the car dialed in pretty good cruising and what not but at WOT it seems to get knock 2/4 pulls

FIC 1250cc injectors
255 walbro
-6 lines everywhere
fuel lab filter
aeromotive fpr set to 40 psi
fp red turbo
greddy bov
2.5 inch piping
mishimoto intercooler
3 inch exhaust
external wastegate tial 38mm

balance shaft delete
fresh timing job less than 100 km ago
fresh plugs br8es i believe, gapped to .20 if im not mistaken.

car idles great.

Any suggestions would be muchly appreciated!
 

Attachments

  • Couple bigger pulls unmodified map.ecm
    4.9 KB · Views: 26

danl

20+ Year Contributor
721
117
Apr 8, 2002
Severn, Maryland
You attached an ECMLink ECU Settings File. I can only view your settings, not a datalog. With that said your SD settings look like hell. I can not view your fuel and timing tables in the configuration data because it is the ECMLink ECU Settings File.

Go to:
C:\Users\YourComputerNameHere\ecmlink\datalogs\logs.2022.11

Pick the file with a timestamp that correlates to when you did your pulls. It should end in '.elg' and say ECM datalog in the description.

Also, what is your engine compression?
 

Tony J

Proven Member
32
6
Oct 2, 2020
Belleville, ON_Canada
sorry about that...

Im well aware the table needs work. ive driven the car 8 times since having speed density.... each drive got better and better and now to the point where i felt comfortable getting into boost and wot. ive put a tank of gas through it driving around town, i have no hesitations what so ever just at wot im letting off when in full boost too long due to knock.

I havent done a compression test lately.

the car is a one owner unmolested fresh timing literally last week. new plugs and battery, new everything LOL. deck was planed and head gasket was purchased for the proper amount taken off head. hks steel, car has headstuds.

just going off top of my head any info that might help.

ive spent a couple days couch tuning and i will give new settings a try here this week ill upload them aswell you can have a look.

heres the data with that log. the first one i sent is one i had some bad data suggestions from ecmlink and didnt smooth please check this one!

thanks again!
 

Attachments

  • couple bigger pulls (1).elg
    55.3 KB · Views: 25

danl

20+ Year Contributor
721
117
Apr 8, 2002
Severn, Maryland
I meant, what compression pistons. Not does the engine have compression.

Your GM IAT's climb pretty quickly when you transition into boost, that is likely why you are experiencing random knock. My car gains 5 deg F from 0 to 110mph. Yours car gains 20 deg F from 52-72 mph. If you didn't list a FMIC above I would have guessed you were on a stock side mount. The IAT's are horrible.

The TPS never goes 100%, so that needs sorted.

The SD table is a bit of a mess which is causing the fueling to the engine to change dramatically during a pull. Smoothing out the SD table and working on an earlier transition to rich for the fuel table will help. I can explain later what a nice SD table and smooth transitions should look like. In the meantime use the SD VE adjust function to have ECMLink build a table for you. With stock cams you won't see over 100% anywhere in the map and you should not see any drastic transitions.

You will be well served to bring in timing at 5 deg at 4000rpm and max out at 15 deg by 7000 while you are figuring stuff out.

Do not do any big pulls until you turn down the timing and add fuel as I suggested above.
 
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Tony J

Proven Member
32
6
Oct 2, 2020
Belleville, ON_Canada
I have a front mount intercooler.. it's tiny mishimoto upfront, I've seen iats as low as 100 at full boost and 120 at full boost which I understand is high.

Any changes you see in the table near 100 or more were suggestions from ecmlink. So that makes me nervous to trust it again, or should I consider the weird one off high cells bad data??
 

Stapl3

15+ Year Contributor
1,598
167
Oct 27, 2004
MI, Michigan
You're lean, and it's causing f***ery in your pulls which is why we see the SD table looking god awful with huge jumps in numbers in an effort to add fuel. You're using the SD table wrong and should put it back to "stock".

Your fuel calibration is wrong, end of story. It's targeting low 9's but getting 11.5+. You've 2 options. Add fuel globally in 'link or give your AFPR a fat crank clockwise. I firmly recommend messing with only the AFPR until afratioest and actual wb line up.

That aside I can't help but to laugh that you're running a Red at 20psi on 91 octane at 18* timing. 8* would be an accomplishment. Thank god for the knock sensor or that engine would be in the scrap yard.
 
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Tony J

Proven Member
32
6
Oct 2, 2020
Belleville, ON_Canada
I went for a drive to the gas station using the sd ve ft suggestions when you right click the log.. i dont find it funny that the car works fine even at wot i only get knock 2/4 times if my cars so out of wack why isnt it knocking everywhere.

I understand that the fuel is out as im using the exact fuel settings from the buddy i bought this turbo and injectors from. we have identical setups and i couldnt get the car to idle with a stock ve table and deadtime set to .61 0r .64

but after my friend Ron came over uploaded his "tip in" his deadtime and global the car would run and drive....

I understand im running out of ve due to the "band aid" fix im using right now to compensate for global... i am asking the "wise guys" what their thoughts are before completely starting from scratch..

raising my FP like you said would that instantly change global and AFRS??

In this log please feel free to analyze. but at 799 seconds in the log i go wot 100% and only 2 degrees knock..... so yes each comment has me puzzled as theyre all telling me to go in different directions.
2 degrees is a hell of alot better than 9 however i only made 19 psi instead of 20 and afr est was 9.3 and actual was 11.3

2 different scenarios, two different logs, the couple pulls log is a straight 3rd gear pull the drive log just posted is me ripping through 123 and going to 4700 rpm... obviously going up little by little each time as the car likes...

the car made 18 psi on the stock engine and turbo setup before i upgraded to density and fp and 1250cc etc this is why im using 20 as a baseline just fyi. wg pressure is set to 20

feel free to continue to criticise this log was right before the couple pulls log.
 

Attachments

  • DRIve.elg
    552.5 KB · Views: 13

llxkevinxll

10+ Year Contributor
489
231
Jan 29, 2012
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
I went for a drive to the gas station using the sd ve ft suggestions when you right click the log.. i dont find it funny that the car works fine even at wot i only get knock 2/4 times if my cars so out of wack why isnt it knocking everywhere.

In this log please feel free to analyze. but at 799 seconds in the log i go wot 100% and only 2 degrees knock..... so yes each comment has me puzzled as theyre all telling me to go in different directions.
2 degrees is a hell of alot better than 9 however i only made 19 psi instead of 20 and afr est was 9.3 and actual was 11.3

The previous log with 9 degrees pulled and this one with 2 degrees is not a random happening. First off, your knock sensor is disabled below 4500 RPM and 80%. As soon as you hit this threshold, it shows knock. Secondly, your 9 degrees pulled log you went to 5500, this 2 degree pull log you went to 4500. Look at your timing table ramping up extremely aggressively in the 5-6k region. That would explain the 7 degree delta alone. Your timidness with the throttle (which is 100% justified) and the knock sensor disable settings mean you are missing a lot knock events and making it seem unpredictable. For now, I would drop those settings to 3000 and 30 or 40%. It will still filter out nuisance knock during cruise and light load but will show you a more complete picture during load.

Your engine is like every other 4G63 fundamentally, regardless of how exotic the internals or engine work is. As others have stated, starting with a 2G or Evo 8 timing map from ECMLink's site should be number one on the list. That timing map you have is insanely aggressive and will lead to a lot of aggravation and combined with the knock sensor settings, a hurt engine eventually.

The fact that you have a WBFactor in the low to mid 20s during WOT and VE values that are pretty low (mid 70s under load) mean the base fuel settings are incorrect, the VE is way off, or both. Your Global Fuel is -70% on 1250s. I run -68ish on 1650s with a peak VE value of 98. So that immediately seems off to me. They may make the car work but that is likely a band aid as you say due to another setting being off. I would set them to the base settings ECMLink provides to start with and in combination with a factory VE table start over. Repeating above, your VE table is way out of whack for what would be considered normal and your 4G will be similar enough to all the others. It may make sense to "do a reset" and go back to a stock VE table, again from ECMLink's site.
 
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Stapl3

15+ Year Contributor
1,598
167
Oct 27, 2004
MI, Michigan
At this point, the only data in a log worth looking at is long idle, long cruise on a flat road, or WOT pull to redline.

Do not get hung up on your buddy's settings for the injectors. Deadtime is arbitrary. The numbers inscribed on the injectors and the number displayed on the 10 dollar analog fuel pressure gauge are ONLY numbers. Instead I'm looking at arguably the most accurate sensor in the car paired with a computer.

If I were you, I would first fix the TPS. Put the SD table back to "stock". Load 2g timing table [for now]. Give the AFPR one full turn clockwise.
 

Tony J

Proven Member
32
6
Oct 2, 2020
Belleville, ON_Canada
Ive been told to install a 2g timing map
crank fuel pressure up 3 psi raising it to 43
scale my entire table by 12% for the time being (which i did and plan on running on the setup as is)
Ive also been told (DSM NATION FB) that i can rescale my global down 5% and scale my entire ve back by 5% once change is made
I have used the trick to take a given afr say 12.4 and i want 10.8 so 12.4/10.8 is 1.1481481481 so i multiplied said lean cell that was at 88 by this number giving me 101

can i get some extra opinions on these tactics... obviously im messing with fuel first
The previous log with 9 degrees pulled and this one with 2 degrees is not a random happening. First off, your knock sensor is disabled below 4500 RPM and 80%. As soon as you hit this threshold, it shows knock. Secondly, your 9 degrees pulled log you went to 5500, this 2 degree pull log you went to 4500. Look at your timing table ramping up extremely aggressively in the 5-6k region. That would explain the 7 degree delta alone. Your timidness with the throttle (which is 100% justified) and the knock sensor disable settings mean you are missing a lot knock events and making it seem unpredictable.

Your engine is like every other 4G63 fundamentally, regardless of how exotic the internals or engine work is. As others have stated, starting with a 2G or Evo 8 timing map from ECMLink's site should be number one on the list. That timing map you have is insanely aggressive and will lead to a lot of aggravation and combined with the knock sensor settings, a hurt engine eventually.

The fact that you have a WBFactor in the low to mid 20s during WOT and VE values that are pretty low (mid 70s under load) mean the base fuel settings are incorrect, the VE is way off, or both. Your Global Fuel is -70% on 1250s. I run -68ish on 1650s with a peak VE value of 98. So that immediately seems off to me. They may make the car work but that is likely a band aid as you say due to another setting being off. I would set them to the base settings ECMLink provides to start with and in combination with a factory VE table start over. Repeating above, your VE table is way out of whack for what would be considered normal and your 4G will be similar enough to all the others. It may make sense to "do a reset" and go back to a stock VE table, again from ECMLink's site.
to give you guys an idea i did use deadtimes and global closer to whats recommended however i couldnt get the car to stay idle, using my buddys exact map from this exact setup (turbo injectors etc) it started right up and ran. all these settings are using his map as a base essentially and that is likely why ve is so high!!


This timing map is a stock 1g, i will put in a stock 2g timing table.
i was told that if i was to scale the entire table by 1.12% that would give me desired afrs, (DSM NATION FB) if i were to dial this in at the said global is there a general rule i can use to simply scale my entire table with a new global?

say i go from -71 to -61 thats a 10% change of increase in fuel. could i remove 10% of fuel from the ve table aswell as global or do these not co relate how im anticipating??

I appreciate all input... Im making notes aswell as what to try first. Im not out doing pulls in the car. my drive log there was no boost involved until i did my pull. that drive log yielded 1.8 degrees instead of 9 like the 3rd gear pull

- the only reason i did the log for 3rd gear was cause i was told to.... so not to some like a simple guy its tough to gauge what advice to try first or at all. 2g timing table is a commong suggestion so i will start there..... i did a 3rd gear pull to get data and was given knock and pulled 9 degrees.

-1.8 seems like nothing even at wot i understand the concern but i just dont feel threatened by 1.8 as much as 9 degrees LOL. i dont want to blow the engine obviously. i just spent all summer getting this back together after being f***ed around by a shop.
 

Tony J

Proven Member
32
6
Oct 2, 2020
Belleville, ON_Canada
At this point, the only data in a log worth looking at is long idle, long cruise on a flat road, or WOT pull to redline.

Do not get hung up on your buddy's settings for the injectors. Deadtime is arbitrary. The numbers inscribed on the injectors and the number displayed on the 10 dollar analog fuel pressure gauge are ONLY numbers. Instead I'm looking at arguably the most accurate sensor in the car paired with a computer.

If I were you, I would first fix the TPS. Put the SD table back to "stock". Load 2g timing table [for now]. Give the AFPR one full turn clockwise.
thank you, i will do this.. my tps should be fine. what are you noticing?? i have the voltages set for .63 key off .65 key on and im getting 100% and 5V at wot
 

llxkevinxll

10+ Year Contributor
489
231
Jan 29, 2012
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
say i go from -71 to -61 thats a 10% change of increase in fuel. could i remove 10% of fuel from the ve table aswell as global or do these not co relate how im anticipating??

I appreciate all input... Im making notes aswell as what to try first. Im not out doing pulls in the car. my drive log there was no boost involved until i did my pull. that drive log yielded 1.8 degrees instead of 9 like the 3rd gear pull

- the only reason i did the log for 3rd gear was cause i was told to.... so not to some like a simple guy its tough to gauge what advice to try first or at all. 2g timing table is a commong suggestion so i will start there..... i did a 3rd gear pull to get data and was given knock and pulled 9 degrees.

-1.8 seems like nothing even at wot i understand the concern but i just dont feel threatened by 1.8 as much as 9 degrees LOL. i dont want to blow the engine obviously. i just spent all summer getting this back together after being f***ed around by a shop.

Line #1, just to clarify language so we don't add confusion you wouldn't be removing. You would be "adding" global fuel (making the Global LESS negative) and thereby you would add a corresponding amount of VE back into the table as a result. I won't say it is 1:1 percent to percent but it could be. One point of caution here is the AFRs will climb as a result. In combination with the fuel pressure adjustment also being recommended you may end up with a net 0 change in fuel but I would add fuel back to the VE (or grab a factory VE table) when making a global change.

Take it all in. Tuning is as much art as it is science, many ways to get to the same point and all the opinions that go along with it. Keep plugging away at it safely and keep asking questions. The timing table swap is a good start, get the car to not knock so you can do pulls with confidence and dial in the fuel. The actual wideband reading isn't dangerous, it just isn't calibrated well (thus the WBFactor values being quite high). This will be easier to fix when engine destroying knock is off the table. Be sure to broaden the knock sensor settings to ensure you see all the knock that is happening during load so you can get out of it when needed.
 

Stapl3

15+ Year Contributor
1,598
167
Oct 27, 2004
MI, Michigan
thank you, i will do this.. my tps should be fine. what are you noticing?? i have the voltages set for .63 key off .65 key on and im getting 100% and 5V at wot
It doesn't settle at 0% and doesn't hit 100%.

I'm not a 'wiseman' as youre seeking and I'm not into facebook. But I will say I've gone through hundreds of logs for over 10 years now and have probably read every thread on the Ecmlink forums more than once. Just keep it simple and do the few things I suggested and you'll be moving a giant step in the right direction.
 

1990TSIAWDTALON

Moderator
9,876
5,752
Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
You must stop knock BEFORE IT STARTS or you will fight and fight it.
 

Tony J

Proven Member
32
6
Oct 2, 2020
Belleville, ON_Canada
You must stop knock BEFORE IT STARTS or you will fight and fight it.
I'm going to try the new global fuel settings I just worry as I couldn't even get the car to idle this way previously.

Maybe my idle cells were too low. Just a thought.

I took the cells upto 54.5 55 and 55 56.5 and my idle loved it....

From what I'm seeing on forums any cc from 1250 to 1650 can be pita.

Thanks for your input I will try and get out today tomorrow for updated logs.
 

habitatguy187

10+ Year Contributor
3,510
183
Aug 20, 2008
Indianapolis, Indiana
Do not get hung up on your buddy's settings for the injectors. Deadtime is arbitrary. The numbers inscribed on the injectors and the number displayed on the 10 dollar analog fuel pressure gauge are ONLY numbers. Instead I'm looking at arguably the most accurate sensor in the car paired with a computer.
To clarify, you’re saying that you trust the wideband and the ecm AND injector size more than the fuel pressure gauge?
 

Tony J

Proven Member
32
6
Oct 2, 2020
Belleville, ON_Canada
I stopped by to visit the car today... tried some things.... heres a log

I like to think i got it closer FT wise.... and my rpm is closer to target at idle, i was playing with the throttle stop (1g) probs and resweeping tps in this log if i remember correctly.. long day..

i havent updated the timing table to a 2g but i did get my global fuel and deadtime closer to my injector sizes (within 50ccs) according to ecmlink calculations
 

Attachments

  • LONG IDLE NEW INJECTOR SIZES.elg
    166.9 KB · Views: 17

llxkevinxll

10+ Year Contributor
489
231
Jan 29, 2012
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
I stopped by to visit the car today... tried some things.... heres a log

I like to think i got it closer FT wise.... and my rpm is closer to target at idle, i was playing with the throttle stop (1g) probs and resweeping tps in this log if i remember correctly.. long day..

i havent updated the timing table to a 2g but i did get my global fuel and deadtime closer to my injector sizes (within 50ccs) according to ecmlink calculations

ISC position stuck at 0 except for when you hit the throttle. So it is functioning but the throttle stop(idle switch on your 1G)/BISS/TPS are probably out of adjustment. You will need to run through the throttle plate/TPS sensor/BISS adjustment procedure to get that sorted out and that will bring your idle rpm to your target.

Outside of that:
Fuel trims are excellent. Anything under +/-10% is great as far as I am concerned. You are essentially under +/-5% across the log.
Airflowperrev is super close. Good enough in my eyes but others may push for perfection of 0.25.
TPSVolts is super close too. 0.63V is ideal, you are at 0.65V. Probably not enough of an error to affect anything but when you do the idle speed adjustments that will be part of the process.

This is looking awesome.
 
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llxkevinxll

10+ Year Contributor
489
231
Jan 29, 2012
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
I've always been told tps was .63 key on car off and car on .65

I just grabbed the value from HERE. But you may be correct. I really don't think it's going to be an issue 0.65V vs 0.63V. Especially if you run the TPS Adjust function in Ecmlink.
 
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