New Head - Car won't start.

[mach4g63t]

Here's the background (mods in profile) . . .

I just put a new head on my car when my other one crapped out. Got new ARP's and a Cometic gasket sealing it all together. Compression tested the engine and it's running 130's across the board (not really happy about that). Everything is torqued right and triple checked. My buddy, who is very experienced with DSM's help me do my timing, and everything is back on as it should be.

Now, when I start my car it turns and I get a few sputters like the cylinders are trying to fire but then it's as if the starter encounters some hesitation and something is keeping it form turning the motor over.

Sort of like this (excuse my improvisions on sound)

Dun-dun-dun-skip-dun-dun-skip-dun-dun-dun-skip.

It has plenty of juice, as I've drained almost two batteries of life now. The weirdest thing also is if I take out the plugs then try to crank the motor is just turns over fine without the skipping in the start.

I just don't understand what it's doing. Is my timing off? I don't know what's wrong and I can't figure out why the car won't start.

 

[Highbooost]

Start a check list, plug gap, physical timing, electrical timing, are the plug wires on in the right order.

 

[mach4g63t]

Done all the basics. Got fuel, got spark, redid plug order, gaps are good, etc. Just wanted to see if anyone else had any input before I ripped the timing belt back off and re-attempted it to see if that made any difference.

 

[DarthBulk]

It really sounds like the timing is off to me.

 

[Irrational]

triple check the firing order

 

[mach4g63t]

If the Mechanical Timing was off one tooth would that be the cause for my seeming "miss" in the starter cycle with the plugs in? But when I take the plugs out the starter just goes 'cause there is nothing to hold the comperssion in and it just goes past the spark plug hole? Does that make sense? Like my exhaust valves are off a tooth and not opening to release the compression and thus fighting the starter on it's rotation and creating the "miss" I'm describing?

I'm thinking it's narrowed down to timing, but I won't know for sure until tonight when I rip it off.

 

[DarthBulk]

I don't think being off one tooth would do that. I would check all the electrical timing devices first.

 

[mach4g63t]

It's a 6-bolt with a '93 CAS, and I've tried putting it on one way and then spinning it 180 and re-attempting with only the same results.

Someone mentioned that I might have to reset the electrical timing by grounding something out on the engine for a few minutes? Anyone have any input on that?

 

[DarthBulk]

You definitely have to set the base timing on the car. Here is a link to how to do it:

Engine Timing

You will need to ground the timing plug in the engine bay, to prevent the ECU from adjusting the timing while you are setting the base timing.

 

[mach4g63t]

Hmm. Thanks, for the info. But I had the car running before I did this and when I installed this 6bolt in the car and never adjusted the base timing. I simply changed the belts and lined everything up and the car started.

And from what I read, the car has to be running for it to be adjusted in the first place?

I guess I'll just have to wait until tonight and re-do my timing job and ensure that it's correct and then try the base timing issue (if I can get the basta*d to start).

Thanks for the help.

 

[DarthBulk]

Yes, I guess I got ahead of myself there You first have to get the car running before you set the base timing, but you definitely have to do that after removing and re-installing the head. But first you have to get it running.
As was mentioned in this thread, I would check all of the electrical timing components and make sure they are connected correctly. Are the plug wires going to the correct posts on the coils? Is the CAS installed the right way around? Are all of the connectors connected? Do you have spark to all of your spark plugs? Is the spark on the correct stroke (compression) for each cylinder? Note that two plugs will always fire simultaneously, but only one of them should be on a cylinder that is on the compression stroke. I would also verify the mechanical timing, of course, but if that was too far off you would get valve contact with your pistons. I don't think being off slightly on that would cause the problems you described, even though it would not be optimum.

 

[Highbooost]

Just a thought but I doubt being off one tooth would keep the car from running.

Just pull the timing cover off, you don't have to take the belt off to check it.

I am deffinetly leaning toward a timing issue, just make sure your CAS and it's button are lined up, and just put the CAS in the middle to start the car, after getting it running you can make adjustments.

 

[mach4g63t]

Well, everything is lined up . . . Perfectly. Coils are all firing, plugs are all gapped, wires are in order, everything is connected. But still I end up with the same problem. I just don't understand why it's doing this. It's getting really aggravating because I ordered a FMIC and a new FP manifold and now I can't put them on because of some seemingly simple, yet unknown malfunction with my car.

And again, the starter turns free and happy when there is no plugs/compression on the cylinders. Seal up the cylinders with plugs and crank it and it's as if the starter is straining/going out. Car has plenty of juice (or it did when I started) but still nothing. None of this makes sense.

Any more suggestions? I'm thinking about ripping everything back off the engine and starting from scratch on hooking things up.

 

[gob4sho89]

Maybe you could try to push start it... you know, put it in neutral, push car, once rolling get in. Turn key and put the car in first at the same time. I had to do this when my friend somehow striped his starter's gear.

 

[1stgendon]

I got a suggestion, but i have a question; did u disconnect the big wire connectors on the fire wall, the three up by the passenger windshield?

 

[tqmx1]

Do you still have the ballance belt and did you change it? And if yes did you pull the crank sprocket and the tin plate with the index mark. If yes the odds are you reversed the plate when you put it back togther.

If thats it it's a simple fix and being that far out the valves servived.

 

[iluvmy4g63]

man my car did the same thing after head job. for some odd reason it was cold start sensor. it was putting the ecu on an open injector cycle and car would not start.

 

[iluvmy4g63]

Do you still have the ballance belt and did you change it? And if yes did you pull the crank sprocket and the tin plate with the index mark. If yes the odds are you reversed the plate when you put it back togther.

If thats it it's a simple fix and being that far out the valves servived.

thats a good point.

 

[mach4g63t]

Do you still have the balance belt and did you change it? And if yes did you pull the crank sprocket and the tin plate with the index mark. If yes the odds are you reversed the plate when you put it back togther.

If thats it it's a simple fix and being that far out the valves servived.

Nope. The actual crank sprocket remained on with the balance shaft belt already in time and aligned. I removed the accessory belt pulley and redid my oil pump timing. I redid everything and made sure it was TDC with the mark aligned. Everything is perfect.

man my car did the same thing after head job. for some odd reason it was cold start sensor. it was putting the ecu on an open injector cycle and car would not start.

Now that you mention this, I did have a problem with this a few weeks ago too. My wiring harness is very old and a lot of the wires/plastic are hard and brittle. I'll go through and re-check my connections for the thermostat's sensors and make sure the one I repaired didn't come apart again while dis/reconnecting my wiring harness.

Again, appreciate all the info. My fingers are crossed, 'cause I'm afraid if I leave my new FP manifold on the pool table any longer one of the 3 other DSM guys that live near me are going to steal it while I'm at work.

 

[iluvmy4g63]

hope you had some luck. let me know if u get it going. i had the problem a with some old wires too. i found some good heat rezistant tape for all of them.

 

[mach4g63t]

hope you had some luck. let me know if u get it going. i had the problem a with some old wires too. i found some good heat rezistant tape for all of them.

No luck yet. I checked over all my wires, connections, my thermostat sensors (like last time), and everything. It simply won't start. When I crank with compression on the engine it just seems like doesn't have any power. But with no compression (no plugs in) it cranks fine, so I'm sure that rules out my starter?

I know the main problem here is my car cranking slowly, with no power to get it turning. Anyone else have any ideas as to why my cranking is so weak with cylinder compression?

 

[DarthBulk]

Does it crank slowly when all of your spark plugs are installed, but the spark plug wires are disconnected? That would rule out a timing issue.

 

[mach4g63t]

Does it crank slowly when all of your spark plugs are installed, but the spark plug wires are disconnected? That would rule out a timing issue.

Haven't tried that. We tested for spark and mechanical timing, but without it running I have no way to adjust my ignition timing. Or is there? With no plugs, she cranks free and true, like it's supposed to. I'll try again tonight with just the plugs and no wires and see what it does.

 

[DarthBulk]

Also, if your engine cranks fast with the spark plugs removed, that doesn't necessarily mean your starter is good. Did you check the main positive wire to your starter? Is it bolted down securely? If that wire is loose, your starter may not be able to draw all the amps it needs to crank the car under compression.

 

[DarthBulk]

Haven't tried that. We tested for spark and mechanical timing, but without it running I have no way to adjust my ignition timing. Or is there? With no plugs, she cranks free and true, like it's supposed to. I'll try again tonight with just the plugs and no wires and see what it does.

Yes, try cranking it with the wires removed but the plugs installed. If it is still difficult to crank over, then I would look into a weak starter. But, if it cranks easier than when the plug wires are installed, then I would still look into the timing. If your plugs are firing too early, your starter will have a heck of a time trying to overcome a detonated mixture which will make it crank terribly hard.