New Head...won't start

[RoasT BeeF]

I just got done doing a head swap on my car. Brand new rebuilt head from the machine shop. I got everything back together today and thought I was good to go. This is the 4th time I have done a head swap/timing job on this car and this is the first time it hasnt started. Anyway here is what happend.

Tried to start the car but all it did was crank and not fire. I checked spark and fuel and I am getting both. I flipped the CAS 180 with no results. After I messed with it for about an hour I got pissed and went inside for awhile. Came back out and tried to start it. It fired the first time but didnt run. Second time it fired again but didnt run. This happend like 4-5 times before I decided to press the gas to the floor when I started it. It fired and ran for probably 1.5 seconds and died. Now it just cranks and wont do anything again. I pulled the spark plugs and they are drenched with gas so I am gonna let it sit overnight and dry out and then try it again in the morning.

What am I missing here?

 

[Sk8er07999]

I think you should have called me on saturday because there where like 10 dsm's at the races! I tried calling you! Hope you get your car fgured out. I wish I could be of more help. Good luck Brent Can't wait until you can come down and we can go check out some races or somethin.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
Ok I have made some progress...
...
What do you guys think?

I've seen that drawing before, if that's exactly what you have then move on to something else.

I may have asked before but I'll ask again, how old are the plugs, what heat range, and what gap?

BTW SK8, is your car running?

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Sk8er07999]

Yeah it's running just fine, does idle funny in the morning and pretty much all the time. Seems to be getting better but I think the crappy idle is mostly just due to my Blow off valve not being recirculated. Thats all, So I am just going to live with it. Thanks, GTM you have got to be the most helpful person on this entire web site. I have been watching RB's thread since day one. I thank you GTM, and BUCK too for being so helpful not to just me but RB as well. Maybe with your help he will finally be able to come down to my neck of the woods! Thanks guys!

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Sk8er07999
Yeah it's running just fine, does idle funny in the morning and pretty much all the time. Seems to be getting better
...

Thanks, GTM you have got to be the most helpful person on this entire web site. I have been watching RB's thread since day one. I thank you GTM, and BUCK too for being so helpful not to just me but RB as well. Maybe with your help he will finally be able to come down to my neck of the woods! Thanks guys!

That's good news, we were all getting pretty frustrated while racking our brains for a light-bulb moment. Sometimes you just have to back away for a while, enjoy that the heater and radio work, car starts and stops (most of the time hehehe).

Have you guys been following the other thread where Buck discovered he had omitted his power brake boost check valve.? If you have a leak in that check valve and in the booster piston it could cause a lot of idle / start problems. Just pull the hose off and plug it up to see how the engine behaves.

Thanks for the compliment, it makes a difference that both of you have been willing to try the things that we have tossed out. You run into all kinds of people here, guy runs a dead short through his key start position and yet I tell him 16 ways from sunday to test it and he listens to every amature blowing in his ear. I draw him a road map and he keeps trying everything else and then still doesn't know. I just gave up and bailed out of the thread for it's a waste of my life. Then there was the guy who had a laundry list (professional jargon for someone who had a bunch of complaints) who felt it was better to dump them all into one post rather than single out one problem. When I suggested this he copped an attitude... that's all she wrote. Ok ok enough venting.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[jrivard00]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
Ok I have made some progress...

Last night I replaced all vac lines and PCV valve. Going off the link that Buck left I have the "full race" setup. After I replaced all vac lines and PCV valve I fired it up. It was idling around 3k! I had to turn the BISS waay down...good sign. I messed with the BISS and throttle linkage for about 10 minutes and got it idling around 750RPM. I knew I was making progress but didnt want to call it good until I let it sit overnight and start it in the morning when its really cold. I went out there this morning and tried it and it started first try and idled at about 1000 RPM's for a good 2 mintues and then just died... So I tried to start it again and it took 3 times before it finally did and then it was idling all shitty again around 400RPM's barely staying alive. Once it got warmed up it idled fine tho...and I did notice that my guage is reading about 14 now as compared to the 9 i was getting before. So I made SOME progress but I still dont understand why it took so long to get it started. I am starting to rule the vac leak possibility out now because I would think it should start up and keep running with -14 In Hg. What do you guys think?

Funny thing is I had the same problem with my 96 GSX. It would do the exact same thing but only in cold weather until the car warmed up after holding the gas pedal down. I ended up replacing the throttle body with a 1G (good deal and why not upgrade) and new gaskets and the problem was solved.

 

[BUCK]

Funny - after I pulled that link I pulled & plugged the Vac lines to my FPR Solenoid too - The link does mention it may not start as quickly with a stock Fuel Pump after that mod so POSSIBLY that could be a little of the 3 time start delay you saw RB, You could easily hook that system back up for a while - Mine fired right off after I disconnected it but I left the solenoid there for a while until I can see how it does after sitting a day or 2. Next time you run it I'd still sniff around with something aerosol - sounds like it ran great on the FIAV - then stumbled when it warmed - that could still be a Vacuum leak IMO - you ARE making progress here...

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Originally posted by Sk8er07999
I think you should have called me on saturday because there where like 10 dsm's at the races! I tried calling you! Hope you get your car fgured out. I wish I could be of more help. Good luck Brent Can't wait until you can come down and we can go check out some races or somethin.

Damn!! sorry Kevin I thought about calling you and commin down but my buddy got a new stereo system so I ended up helping him install it all night. Plus my car still isnt running that great and I don't know that I trust it to go that far just yet. Maybe next weekend. But damn 10 dsm's huh? Tell me all about it over AIM or somethin.

Originally posted by GTM
I've seen that drawing before, if that's exactly what you have then move on to something else.

I may have asked before but I'll ask again, how old are the plugs, what heat range, and what gap?

Yeah I already had everything that the "full race" setup shows on that link besides the catch can so thats the only thing I really changed...

Plugs are about 7 months old. They are NGK BPR7ES and I didnt mess with the gap so that I cant tell ya.

Originally posted by GTM
...Have you guys been following the other thread where Buck discovered he had omitted his power brake boost check valve.? If you have a leak in that check valve and in the booster piston it could cause a lot of idle / start problems. Just pull the hose off and plug it up to see how the engine behaves.

...it makes a difference that both of you have been willing to try the things that we have tossed out. You run into all kinds of people here, guy runs a dead short through his key start position and yet I tell him 16 ways from sunday to test it and he listens to every amature blowing in his ear. I draw him a road map and he keeps trying everything else and then still doesn't know. I just gave up and bailed out of the thread for it's a waste of my life. Then there was the guy who had a laundry list (professional jargon for someone who had a bunch of complaints) who felt it was better to dump them all into one post rather than single out one problem. When I suggested this he copped an attitude... that's all she wrote. Ok ok enough venting.

Cheers,
GTM

Matter of fact I read all those threads that you were just talking about last night. And I forgot to mention that I did try blocking the brake booster off with no results.

Originally posted by jrivard00
Funny thing is I had the same problem with my 96 GSX. It would do the exact same thing but only in cold weather until the car warmed up after holding the gas pedal down. I ended up replacing the throttle body with a 1G (good deal and why not upgrade) and new gaskets and the problem was solved.

Interesting.

I know for a fact my throttle body shaft seals leak air when I do a boost leak test but it never made the car run bad before... Maybe I will locate a replacement and try that since I need one anyway.

Originally posted by BUCK
Funny - after I pulled that link I pulled & plugged the Vac lines to my FPR Solenoid too - The link does mention it may not start as quickly with a stock Fuel Pump after that mod so POSSIBLY that could be a little of the 3 time start delay you saw RB, You could easily hook that system back up for a while - Mine fired right off after I disconnected it but I left the solenoid there for a while until I can see how it does after sitting a day or 2. Next time you run it I'd still sniff around with something aerosol - sounds like it ran great on the FIAV - then stumbled when it warmed - that could still be a Vacuum leak IMO - you ARE making progress here...

Yeah but like I said I didnt mess with anything but the PCV and valve cover breather hose where I installed a catch can. Everything else was already setup as "race only."

Thanks again everyone

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF

...
Plugs are about 7 months old. They are NGK BPR7ES and I didnt mess with the gap so that I cant tell ya.

I'm gonna thrash you with a wet noodle if this turns out to be those plugs. Thought I'd suggested putting in new for these have been subjected to fuel immersion and may have developed shorts high up in the insulator. You can keep these for spares but it makes the most sense.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Originally posted by GTM
I'm gonna thrash you with a wet noodle if this turns out to be those plugs. Thought I'd suggested putting in new for these have been subjected to fuel immersion and may have developed shorts high up in the insulator. You can keep these for spares but it makes the most sense.

Cheers,
GTM

No need to get violent. I orderd a new set from ProStreet which should be here soon.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
No need to get violent. I orderd a new set from ProStreet which should be here soon.

By now I'll bet you can do most of this blindfolded... up close and personal. You don't have an Auto Zone or other large chain near you or are you running some trick plug?

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RoasT BeeF]

They are BPR7ES plugs which are one stage colder than stock. BPR6ES is stock. Although I am told you can get both at NAPA, Prostreet sells a set of 4 for $12 shipped which is way cheaper than NAPA. Plus I like shopping online and I'm nearly broke after spending over $550 on this head swap...so I'll save every penny I can.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
They are BPR7ES plugs which are one stage colder than stock. BPR6ES is stock.
...

Did you check the cross reference from the Bosch to the NGK plugs?

Here is a little known fact, if you under torque to the lowest specified value it will raise the heat range almost 1/2 the specified heat range. Conversely if you over torque the BPR6ES it will lower them towards the 7's range. I'm sure you know with NGK the higher the number the colder the plug. Give this a try, use an inch lb torque wrench if you have it for more percision torque. Check them on occasion for you don't want one to unscrew and make a dent in your hood. You are in a cold clime and winter so the 7's might be a bit cold plus you have been having cold start issues and you may need to run the 6's in winter and 7's in summer. You could also try using the widest gap recommended setting... maybe even fudge+ .005" which will cause them to run hotter as well. Plugs can do some crazy things especially these Resistor types, too bad you didn't get a chance to feel them go from good to bad rather than just not starting properly from the get go.

I'm going to be really unhappy with myself if this isn't the _fix_ we have been looking for. D..n, we've tried just about everything else twice. I'm no longer in a position to call anybody and ask for a favor where they could put the car on a dyno and scope where you can see what's going on. I zeroed in on 2 other cars with plug problems in 2 days. One person said he had never seen his boost needle go past 7 now he can peg it at 15 ...made a real believer.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RoasT BeeF]

So you're saying the more I tighten my plugs the colder they will run? How does that work?

I orderd another set of the 7's...should I get some 6's now too? I think you may be right about running 6's in the winter and 7's in the summer. Makes sense.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
So you're saying the more I tighten my plugs the colder they will run? How does that work?

I orderd another set of the 7's...should I get some 6's now too? I think you may be right about running 6's in the winter and 7's in the summer. Makes sense.

Yes, that's correct. Back in the old days you could buy extra copper washers and even split the heat ranges by adding up to 3 washers. The tighter you made the plug the better the contact between the washers and the couple extra threads for transfering the head from the plug into the head. Sports cars that raced and motorcycles used these tricks for the racer's edge. You can still buy thermocouple spark plug washers for airplanes, you then hook this into your Pyrometer (EGT) so you can really dial in your spark plugs for each cylr. for each race course. Technology has changed, better castings for cars and water-cooled for motorcycles so it has become less critical for they know what to expect.

Good business on the decision to lay in another heat range.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Wow thats pretty interesting about the washers and such. Hehe.

I sucked it up and went down to NAPA and bought a set of 4 NGK BPR6ES plugs and installed them today after changing out the oil. Started it up and it ran a hell of alot better! The real test will be when I go out to start it in the morning though. I will let you all know what happens then.

Thanks for the info once again.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF

...
Started it up and it ran a hell of alot better! The real test will be when I go out to start it in the morning though. I will let you all know what happens then.

I dunno whether to hide under the table or flee the country. We will be waiting with bated breath.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Well here I am again with bad news. The plugs didnt do it. The car idles a lot better when its warmed up than before so the plugs did help a little but didnt fix the whole problem. I went out to start the car this morning and here is what happend...

Turned key, fired but died. Let it sit for 30 seconds turn key fires dies. Did this 3 or 4 times before I just put my foot on the throttle like before... Once it warmed up I let off the gas and it died. Started it back up and there it was idling at a rough 600 RPM's and getting around 5-9 on vac!!! WHAT THE HELL!? I am out of ideas and am getting sick of this shit so I guess I am done until I locate a throttle body to swap in. If that doesnt do it I will probably take it somewhere. I just dont get this car sometimes....it has never ran right from the begining....its always something. Thought I was going to have a kick ass car that ran great after I put this brand new head on there but what do I get? That's right a swift kick to the nuts.:thumbdown

I just wanna say thanks to everyone once again for all the help and support. I surely could not have come this far by myself. It's nice to know that there are people like you guys to help a fella out when he's in need. I thank you much.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
Well here I am again with bad news. The plugs didnt do it.
...

Sorry to announce that GTM just jumped out of the plane at 30,000 feet WITHOUT a parachute.

Captain overheard muttering to first officer... good riddance.
.....................

Can you safely drive the car?

What's the going rate on throttle bodies from wrecking yards??

Jan. 1st one of the local Do it Yourself wrecking yards is having a 1/2 off sale, want me to bag one for you IF I find it??

 

[RoasT BeeF]

noooo :laugh:

Well I see them all around here and the trader for around $50. If you get one from a junkyard it HAS to be a 1990, 91's were different. Hell if you could get one for $25 that would be great but I beleive I may have found one already. RallyGSX has one. I offerd him $30 if the shaft seals leak and $40 if they dont. Plus he lives in the state about an hour and a half from me. He will probably get back to me tongiht or tomorrow so I will let ya know. Thanks for offering though.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
noooo :laugh:
...
Plus he lives in the state about an hour and a half from me. He will probably get back to me tongiht or tomorrow so I will let ya know. Thanks for offering though.

You bet, with all the cold weather this bad idle complaint is showing up more and more. You gotta forgive me but it rarely freezes here in Los Angeles so we don't see some of the problems you people do who live in colder climes. Once in a great while we will see someone who has a cabin in the local mountains where it does freeze and snow but when it's back here it doesn't act up. Grrrrr These are by far the worst to duplicate for we can pack things in dry ice but we can't get the altitude conditions duplicated. The more I think about this the more I'm thinking the T/B may play an important role in all your probs. What were the reasons you thought yours was bad???

It might be interesting to try putting a 75watt spot light on the T/B all night to keep it warm and see how it reacts with a cold start. I'm sure you know about the block heaters which keep the water warm or the oil warm. Use to be J.C. Whitney had them for under $15 a long time ago but now probably $50.

Keep us posted.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Ooooo good idea about the heat lamp! I am going to try that one. Damn GTM you never run out of ideas do ya man? Good to have ya around I must say.

I think mine may be bad because it has always leaked boost around the shaft seals. There is a good article on the vfaq about replacing the shaft seals. I went through that procedure once only to make my leak worse. I have decided that the shaft itself must be worn to the point of not being fixable so a replacement TB is the best choice. I suppose it could have gotten worse since I last checked for leaks and could be causing the vac leak and poor idle/start problems. I will try the heat lamp idea though.

 

[RallyGSX]

Shot in the dark... I wish I could actually check this thing out...

Is your exhaust cam retarded 1 tooth? Can you otherwise check to see if your cam timing is OK.

I have a lower radiator hose heater on my car. $20 at any parts store, and my car loves it. It does use 500W, but well worth it, IMO.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
Ooooo good idea about the heat lamp! I am going to try that one. Damn GTM you never run out of ideas do ya man? Good to have ya around I must say.
...
I have decided that the shaft itself must be worn to the point of not being fixable so a replacement TB is the best choice.
...
I will try the heat lamp idea though.

Just as we thought GTM was lost we saw him sliding down a beam of light with 2 bavishing rudies awaiting...
.............
Oooo you should have seen me in my prime and before raising 2 kids with genius IQs.
..................

Ahha, worn shaft / bushings. When if you get another T/B take yours and set in a cardboard box with a hole just big enough for the hole to show through. On the back side you will put a decent light source (that 75w spot) Close the throttle and look for light leaks around the plate, what I've been able to see for the want of a better description leesagang(sp?) rings as the light is bounced between the edge of the throttle plate and the throttle body. If these cannot be duplicated with each closing then chances are it will leak air as well for we are seeing light at smaller than a molecule of air. The dancing you will see is the light exciting the molecules and changing the wavelength. Just another of those inventions I never patented.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Thanks for the tip RallyGSX. That was the first thing I checked when I got the car running and noticed my poor vac readings. Everything lined up perfect.

75Watt heat lamp is sitting right on top of the TB now. I will let you all know the outcome tomorrow morning!

Happy new year.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
75Watt heat lamp is sitting right on top of the TB now. I will let you all know the outcome tomorrow morning!

Happy new year.

And a Happy new year to all from the machine.

Don't over cook that thing. Was going to suggest using an old aluminum throwaway roasting pan bent to keep the heat and then throw a fender cover over that if you don't have a garage.

Cheers,
GTM