Need Help! Cams, ARP's, and Headgasket Install..

[Shane2GSX]

Just as the title says, I really need some help/guidance. First off, I'll be the first to admit I'm very new at this, and I'm scared about screwing something up. Actually, I think I may have already.

A friend and I began the install of my Cams, Headgasket, and ARP Headstuds on otherwise stock 7 bolt. We decided not to use, RRE's method for the Cams, as we needed to take the car out of time to do the HG and ARP's anyway. This was all going okay, until we realized that we took the T-Belt off, taking the car out of time, all without getting the engine at TDC. When we took the belt off, obviously tension was lost and the engine relaxed and went where it wanted. Now, we have no reference point as to where to put things. We went ahead and replaced the cams, with the dowel pins both pointing down. Now we're ready to remove the head from the block to do the ARP's and Headgasket.

Here's my thinking, see if you guys think this would work for getting things back in line. In the vfaq's timing belt replacement instructions (http://www.vfaq.com/mods/timingbelt-2G.html), toward the middle of the page, it gives a few figures with reference points of where the timing marks should be for the cam gears, crank, and oil pump when the engine is at TDC.

I'm thinking that, if I take off the head and set it aside, complete the gasket and headstuds. Then position the crank and oil pump's marks at TDC. Then take the head, and put the cam gears marks at TDC, and put the head back on, it should all be right. Is my thinking correct here?

Also, when we took out the cams, we noted the exact position of the exhaust cam and put it back in the exact same way. Then on the intake cam, we had a bonehead moment, and carelessly did not note the position of it. So we put it on, and just lined up the dowel pin with the exhaust cam, which is at the bottom. They are now both pointing down. Is this right?

We really feel pretty bad about this, and I can't believe we missed some very simple things..


Please help us out.!!

Thanks.

 

[nicknorth11]

Basically, what we need to know is this... How do you make sure your cam lobes are positioned properly in reference to the valves?

 

[Tony90TSI]

Take the head off and put the motor at TDC. When you get that taken care of then line up the markers on the cam gears where they are pointing directly at eachother in the middle of the head. Then put it all back together.

 

[Shane2GSX]

Sorry my post was so long..

Thanks Tony.

 

[Tony90TSI]

Sorry my post was so long..

Thanks Tony.

You do understand what i am saying though? Most people will break out a ruler to make sure that the marks are perfect as possible. 1 degree can make more power or lose a little. You dont have to take the head of to find TDC as the balancer will have a mark on it that should say TDC that you just have to line up with the pointer on the block. But since you have to pull the head you mine aswell double check that.

Tony

 

[nicknorth11]

Tony, thaks for the info., but unfortunately, I think we are looking for slightly different information. I know how to put the car into time, the problem is we don't know how to position the cam on the head in reference to the valves. More specifically, the cam will sit on the head in a few different positions (lobes rotated). How do we make sure the cam is seated properly in the head? Thanks.

 

[Tony90TSI]

Tony, thaks for the info., but unfortunately, I think we are looking for slightly different information. I know how to put the car into time, the problem is we don't know how to position the cam on the head in reference to the valves. More specifically, the cam will sit on the head in a few different positions (lobes rotated). How do we make sure the cam is seated properly in the head? Thanks.

The information i provided is for that as well. You want to make sure that you are putting the cams and crank in time together. To make sure that the cams are insync(not the band) you have to aline the markers on the cam gears. There is a small notch in the face of the gears that needs to be lined up. The marks need to be in the center pointing at eachother kind like this. O- -O

Make sense?

 

[nicknorth11]

I think i'm wording my issue wrong. (not to mention the fact that shane asked the WRONG question. haha, [sorry shane]).

What we need to know has nothing to do with timing. I know all of that. Our issue concerns nothing more than the intake cam and valves. Let me put it like this. If you take the car out of time without knowing where it is in reference to tdc (both cams rotate to find a relaxed state, which I don't know which way they rotated or if they rotated in the same or opposite directions) and then you take the cam caps off of the cam and rotate it, how do you find the point where the cam is seated properly?

So, you can see that there is more to this problem than simply lining up the marks since the cams rotated in unknown directions before the cams were removed and then they were taken off without noting their position. Sure, I can put the cam on and line up the marks, but then I could just take the cam off, rotate it 90, 180, or 270 degrees, put it back on and allign it that way. There are 4 possibilities here. I hope this helps.

 

[Tony90TSI]

I think i'm wording my issue wrong. (not to mention the fact that shane asked the WRONG question. haha, [sorry shane]).

What we need to know has nothing to do with timing. I know all of that. Our issue concerns nothing more than the intake cam and valves. Let me put it like this. If you take the car out of time without knowing where it is in reference to tdc (both cams rotate to find a relaxed state, which I don't know which way they rotated or if they rotated in the same or opposite directions) and then you take the cam caps off of the cam and rotate it, how do you find the point where the cam is seated properly?

So, you can see that there is more to this problem than simply lining up the marks since the cams rotated in unknown directions before the cams were removed and then they were taken off without noting their position. Sure, I can put the cam on and line up the marks, but then I could just take the cam off, rotate it 90, 180, or 270 degrees, put it back on and allign it that way. There are 4 possibilities here. I hope this helps.

Maybe its too early here but your question doesnt make sense. The cams when installed can only be one way. I mean there is a pin that holds the cam gears in place so that you cant move the cam a different degree from the gear itself. There in if you have the cam gears installed and cams in correct(intake and exhaust) then all you really have to do is line up the dots and put it back together. Same thing you would have to do if you bought a used head and wanted to put it on. You dont know if the cams have been moved or not but as long as the pins are there then it really limits the possibilities. Am i missing something else or are the pins not there?

 

[nicknorth11]

Try to get away from your current train of thought and picture this. the timing belt is off. The cam caps are off so you can pick up a cam and rotate it freely. Now, pick up the intake cam and rotate it 90 degrees. <--(this step is where the cam is no longer sitting properly on the valves). Set the cam back down. Put the cam caps back on. Allign the pins. The cam is rotate 90 degrees out of its correct possition and will bend valves.

 

[Tony90TSI]

Try to get away from your current train of thought and picture this. the timing belt is off. The cam caps are off so you can pick up a cam and rotate it freely. Now, pick up the intake cam and rotate it 90 degrees. <--(this step is where the cam is no longer sitting properly on the valves). Set the cam back down. Put the cam caps back on. Allign the pins. The cam is rotate 90 degrees out of its correct possition and will bend valves.

Try to get out of that train of thought. You may have turned the cam 90* out from its original location but by putting the cam gears on and aligning the markers you have put it back forrect. The tabs allow the cam gears to only be installed one way. Look at it this way. If you spin the crank over and then take it out. How do you know where it should be when you put it back in? Put the balancer on and line it up to TDC then do the standard timing stuff.

 

[nicknorth11]

Try to get out of that train of thought. You may have turned the cam 90* out from its original location but by putting the cam gears on and aligning the markers you have put it back forrect. The tabs allow the cam gears to only be installed one way. Look at it this way. If you spin the crank over and then take it out. How do you know where it should be when you put it back in? Put the balancer on and line it up to TDC then do the standard timing stuff.

Tony, I truly mean this in the most respectful and polite way possible, but I don't think you understand one of the following: my question or cams. I think it is best that someone else try to help. Thanks anyway.






Any other thoughts? (Please)

This sums up the problem.

I think i'm wording my issue wrong. (not to mention the fact that shane asked the WRONG question. haha, [sorry shane]).

What we need to know has nothing to do with timing. I know all of that. Our issue concerns nothing more than the intake cam and valves. Let me put it like this. If you take the car out of time without knowing where it is in reference to tdc (both cams rotate to find a relaxed state, which I don't know which way they rotated or if they rotated in the same or opposite directions) and then you take the cam caps off of the cam and rotate it, how do you find the point where the cam is seated properly?

So, you can see that there is more to this problem than simply lining up the marks since the cams rotated in unknown directions before the cams were removed and then they were taken off without noting their position. Sure, I can put the cam on and line up the marks, but then I could just take the cam off, rotate it 90, 180, or 270 degrees, put it back on and allign it that way. There are 4 possibilities here. I hope this helps.

 

[daren_p]

What your saying isn't possible, unless you don't line up the timing marks. A cam install is very simple. You rotate the motor till TDC & all you timing marks will line up. There are dowel pins in the end of the cams that fit into the cam gears. Look at where the hole are in each cam gear an set the cams in the same position (dowels at the top). The cams will basically be in the correct position with the dowles at the top. You can move them slightly back & forth to install the gears back on & you won't have any issues with contacting valves & piston if the motor is still at TDC. You can't really put the cams in 90, 180, etc out as is takes alot of pressure to open the valves that aren't currently open so you'd have to be forcing the cam caps on to try & open those valves up if the cams were in the wrong position. Here's a link to RRE's install method, to give you a better idea.

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/instructions/caminstructions.htm

Tony is correct, and re-reading your quote it isn't physically possible to do what your saying of putting the cams at 90, 180 deg out & realign it. The cams have dowles in the end that go into holes on the cam gears. They only fit on the cam gears one way. The only way you can put them out of phase is if you don't line up the timing marks on the cam gears. If these marks are correct (both dowels are in the 12 oclock position, exhaust cam gear line at 3 & intake cam gear line at 9) the cams will be in the correct position. Your probably thinking the cam gears can be installed on the cams in any position, if this was the case then you could align them in any position but this isn't the case. They only go on the cam gears in one position, so like I said what you are describing isn't possible if your timing marks are correct.

 

[Tony90TSI]

That is what i am saying is that the cam can NOT be any degree out if you have the tabs still mounted and the gears installed. Then the cams can NOT be out of degree with each other if the marks are lined up. They will only install 1 way to the cam gear. So if you install the gear correctly and line up the marks then its done.

 

[nicknorth11]

The very end of your post is the direction I am trying to go with this. However, it IS possible to put the cam on the wrong way, trust me. I can set it on there at least two ways that will allow it to be tightened. Further, the timing was NOT put at TDC before the t.b. was taken off, so that is out. Lastly, I am very aware of the pins on the cam gears, how they work, and everything else about timing. My issue has nothing to do with timing what-so-ever. Is there any way to look at the head or valves from the top or the bottom to see how the cam (not cam gear) sits on the head?

Daren, Thanks for the post! You are a huge help.

 

[nicknorth11]

That is what i am saying is that the cam can NOT be any degree out if you have the tabs still mounted and the gears installed. Then the cams can NOT be out of degree with each other if the marks are lined up. They will only install 1 way to the cam gear. So if you install the gear correctly and line up the marks then its done.

Tony, the cam gears are off. They have absolutely nothing to do with this question. Please, do not post on this thread. I know you are honestly trying to help, but by reitterating your point you are only hindering my progress. I am not trying to be insulting or mean, i'm just asking for you to please do not post here. Thank you.

 

[daren_p]

The very end of your post is the direction I am trying to go with this. However, it IS possible to put the cam on the wrong way, trust me. I can set it on there at least two ways that will allow it to be tightened. Further, the timing was NOT put at TDC before the t.b. was taken off, so that is out. Lastly, I am very aware of the pins on the cam gears, how they work, and everything else about timing. My issue has nothing to do with timing what-so-ever. Is there any way to look at the head or valves from the top or the bottom to see how the cam (not cam gear) sits on the head?

Daren, Thanks for the post! You are a huge help.

Yes it is possible to put the cams in wrong but it isn't possible to put the cams in wrong if all the timing marks are lined up correctly. Sounds like your issue is becasue the motor wasn't at TDC when you took the TB off. With this bit of major info that you left out , the issue your having makes more sense now (well atleast I think its making sense now). What I would do is pull the #1 & #2 spark plugs and put a screw driver etc. in each cylinder then rotate the crank till both pistons are parallel. By doing this all pistons will be mid stroke & you don't have to worry about any valve contact. Next install each cam how they will install the easiest & put on the cam gears. Next rotate each cam till the dowles are in the correct position & the timing marks are correct. Now that the cams are in the correct position you should now be able to rotate the crank to the correct position to align its timing mark.

 

[Tony90TSI]

Yes it is possible to put the cams in wrong but it isn't possible to put the cams in wrong if all the timing marks are lined up correctly. Sounds like your issue is becasue the motor wasn't at TDC when you took the TB off. With this bit of major info that you left out , the issue your having makes more sense now (well atleast I think its making sense now). What I would do is pull the #1 & #2 spark plugs and put a screw driver etc. in each cylinder then rotate the crank till both pistons are parallel. By doing this all pistons will be mid stroke & you don't have to worry about any valve contact. Next install each cam how they will install the easiest & put on the cam gears. Next rotate each cam till the dowles are in the correct position & the timing marks are correct. Now that the cams are in the correct position you should now be able to rotate the crank to the correct position to align its timing mark.

Maybe i am missing something but the Original Poster said they are getting ready to take off the head. So why would you not take the head off put the gears on and line up the marks then find tdc on the block and reinstall everything?

 

[nicknorth11]

Thanks guys. With your help I think i've finally got it. It is VERY appreciated!

 

[daren_p]

Maybe i am missing something but the Original Poster said they are getting ready to take off the head. So why would you not take the head off put the gears on and line up the marks then find tdc on the block and reinstall everything?

Nope, maybe I missed something, I didn't read the whole first post I just read the simplified version If the cams are already in like the OP said with the dowels at the bottom position, this isn't the correct position but if your pulling the head its no biggie. Pull the head, align the oil pump, BS & crank at their proper timing mark & then rotate the cams with the head off till the dowels are at the 12 oclock position and the timing marks are parallel with the head surface. Then when you put the head back on everything will be in proper alignment & ready for the belt to go back on (you will obviously have to tweek the cam positions abit as their relaxed state won't be 100% on for the timing marks but this is normal & is only a few deg back & forth which obviously won't cause any contact issues).

 

[nicknorth11]

yup. thanks.

 

[Shane2GSX]

I appologize, as this is kinda my fault. As Nick said, I posted question a little wrong.

darenp: thanks for the help. read my first post though, I know it's long, but it explains that we're taking the head off which provids an opportunity to put the eng at tdc.

But here's what I'm going to do, and from the info on here, it should work fine.
Take off head.
Put bottom at TDC.
Put head at TDC using cam gear timing marks.
Put head on..

That was the gist of my first post..

 

[wazzelby]

Maybe i am missing something but the Original Poster said they are getting ready to take off the head. So why would you not take the head off put the gears on and line up the marks then find tdc on the block and reinstall everything?

My thoughts exaclty. Since theyare new to this type of install I would recomend the path with the least amount of ways that they could end up bending valves. Pull the head, install the cams and cam gears, rotate them until they are aligned. Then rotate the engine to TDC, Put a clip on the cam gears to keep them from moving, reinstall the head. Set your timing and you are all set with no guess work.
Removing the head first lets them physically see the valves and pistons when they are being rotated. This alone is great information to anyone who has never seen how they move when you rotate the engine (or cams). So next time they have to do this, they will have a better understanding of how it all works.

 

[daren_p]

I appologize, as this is kinda my fault. As Nick said, I posted question a little wrong.

darenp: thanks for the help. read my first post though, I know it's long, but it explains that we're taking the head off which provids an opportunity to put the eng at tdc.

But here's what I'm going to do, and from the info on here, it should work fine.
Take off head.
Put bottom at TDC.
Put head at TDC using cam gear timing marks.
Put head on..

That was the gist of my first post..

Yea, did read your first post before my last post. If you follow what I posted (or your above breakdown) you should be set

 

[Shane2GSX]

Thanks for your help!