Need advice on built motor gone bad

[Bastard1g]

Well, I work for ford and I know that they come with a certain type of break in oil that has a greenish tint to it. I dont know exactly what it is composed of but I know its called break in oil. I am going to borrow my friends compression gauge today to test the compression again. I will try the dry and wet test then post results. Wish me luck.

 

[GTM]

Also, I still need to know how much comet to sprinkle in my motor? I just want to make sure I dont put too much in and destroy my motor.

This is as mentioned before not something I wish to endorse for fear others will think it will solve their problem as well. If you are convinced the valve guides and seals are not causing a problem then it can only be rings/pistons. If your fitting clearances were good including ring groove and ring thickness then about all that's left is an oil glaze. As for how much, less than 1" from the container and then take it out and drive it.

I'm not there and don't know that everything was done correctly, it can solve it or make things worse which will require pulling it down. This won't fix rings with too little pressure, it won't improve too much gap or too much groove width. If you have no change then suspect valve guide seals.

Keep us posted.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Big Woo]

Well the manual does not say that the cylinder pressure "should be 164psi"
According to the Haynes manual for a 2.0L turbo
"standard 164 psi"
"service limit 121 psi"
"difference between cylinders 14 psi maximum"

Standard odes not mean that that is what everyone will see, It is intended as a bench mark, or a point of reference if you will, if all things are equal.

Again as I mentioned in a previous post there are many things that will factor into what the cylinder pressure will measure while cranking. So off the top of my head here are a few things to consider
Engine items
Valve timing: intake valve and exhaust valve opening and closing times
Piston height: distance from wrist pin centerline to piston deck surface
Deck height: distance from crankshaft centerline to deck surface
Stroke half length: exact distance from the centerline of the crank main journal to the centerline of the rod journal.
Connecting rod length: exact length of the connecting rod from the big end centerline to the wrist pin centerline.
Head gasket: head gasket thickness
Combustion chamber volume: volume of combustion chamber.
Valve dish: Exact volume of the dish in the combustion chamber side of the intake and exhaust valves.
Valve height: Measure of how far recessed the valve seats have become from wear or regrinding, this will also increase if the valves themselves have been reground.
Deck volume: measure of cylinder volume with piston at TDC. Piston dish volume, and ring package height will effect this value.

Testing Items
Battery: The battery voltage and amp rating can effect how fast the starter will spin the motor.
All spark plugs in or out: Can effect the cranking RPM of the motor.
Air filter condition:

Bastard1G "I still don't understand how 150 psi is fine when I am supposed to have 164"
The point here is that you do not know for sure that you are supposed to have 164psi. I know you said the block was decked, but did you specify how much material too remove, like .010 or did they just clean the surface by taking .004 to .006? Same goes with the Head cutting. If the pistons were replaced was the dish volume measured and compared to the volume of the old ones? Do you know the difference in the compressed height of the head gaskets? Were any valve replaced, if so were their head volumes checked vs the old valves? If a valve grind was preformed them the valve were recessed to some distance, increasing chamber volume? Were the cams degreed in or did you just line up the timing marks? Just because the timing marks were aligned does not mean that all of the valve events are occurring within 1 degree of the specified times. Did you have the valve guides replaced? If not then this is where I would look first for a possible oil leak/burning. Have you tried a wet compression check to see if it significantly increases the cranking pressure? Also you may want to preform a leak down test to confirm or disprove any findings.

 

[Bastard1g]

Cylinder#4-150 psi dry/160 psi wet
Cylinder#3-145 psi dry/165 psi wet
Cylinder#2-150 psi dry/165 psi wet
Cylinder#1-155 psi dry/163 psi wet

I sprinkled some comet into my motor. I didnt sprinkle much for fear of blowing my engine. I dumped a lil less than 1/2 a cap full (from the cap of a quart of oil I used) I tried to break it in again with accelerating and letting off the gas while in gear so the engine slows the car down. I did this a few times then had to take my friend home. I got on it a few times real good but I slow down to the light and get smoke as usual. I hate the smoke, its the worst part of the whole deal. The oil gets all over my car and I am tired of washing it off. Its intermitent, so sometimes it isnt too bad but I still get annoyed by it. Did I use enough? I will use more if you think it will help. I just hate the smoke and I wouldnt mind having better compression. According to the compression check, I lost 5 psi in cylinder #3 as my last compression check read out 150 psi all around the board. I dont think I will complain to the guy who built my motor. I doubt he can help me at all being that this motor is in my daily driver. Any thoughts or ideas?

 

[Big Woo]

If your results are accurate, then you may have a slight ring sealing problem. Generally you do not want to see more than a 10psi change in cylinder pressure, when comparing wet and dry compression test values. Using your most recent test values the difference in compression values is
#4 10 psi
#3 20 psi
#2 15 psi
#1 8 psi

You may want to do a leak down test if you can gain access to one, as it will help pin point where the leaks are. If you end up tearing the engine down do not limit yourself to just fixing the rings, valve guides, or whatever, instead check ( or have someone else check) all components for possible problems. Then of course fix what is necessary.

Were these latest test numbers taken before or after you preformed the comet test?

 

[Bastard1g]

It was before I did the comet trick. I have been driving around today and it may not smoke as bad as before. I will let you guys know tommorow how much it smokes ,if it still does. A friend of mine suggested to get my a/f ratio in the 14's being that at idle, it runs either 11:1 or lower and he thinks some of it may be a rich smoke. I will try to compression test it tonight after work to see if it changed with the comet treatment.

 

[GTM]

If your results are accurate, then you may have a slight ring sealing problem. Generally you do not want to see more than a 10psi change in cylinder pressure, when comparing wet and dry compression test values. Using your most recent test values the difference in compression values is
#4 10 psi
#3 20 psi
#2 15 psi
#1 8 psi
...
Were these latest test numbers taken before or after you preformed the comet test?

If memory serves I remember 185 would jump to a max of 215 on good engines but then I may have been better at gettin the oil where it was needed.

Has it been established his gauge is accurate?

As for the Comet application I don't think you got near enough to do anything. I remember using about a teaspoon for each cylr so a total of 4 over the course of maybe 30 seconds max. I've seen co-workers use as much as half a can which I thought was excessive but they didn't come back. Now the question would be did using that much shorten the life of the engine so it needed an overhaul at 75k instead of 100k+ was never known.
............................

You must determine if you are running rich (black smoke) and getting fuel wash which will also cause blue smoke from oil burning. All we can do is toss out information some of which may apply.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Bastard1g]

ok, I ran another compression check about an hour ago

Cylinder#4-150
Cylinder#3-150
Cylinder#2-150
Cylinder#1-145


See how it doesnt make sense? Seems like the gauge may be acting up. Also, I need to check some things out with my fuel settings because while at idle, I am getting below 11:1 a/f ratio. I cant lean it out for some reason no matter what I do. I wonder if the pot mod is having an effect on it. I am running very rich at idle. Also, My motor sat for about 1 year before I putit in and started driving it. I kept oil in the cylinders so it wouldnt rust or anything. Would that hurt me too? My motor still smokes.

 

[pneumo]

Do you still have excess crankcase pressure? That would cause oil to get pushed past the seals in the turbo, causing smoke. Check the valvecover breather tube for any kinks or blockages. Try leaving the dipstick up slightly so pressure can get out. Add a PVC valve, it can be vented to atmosphere (if your state smog laws allow) as long as the valvecover can vent pressure outwards through it.

The next time you do a compression test, use a flashlight and look into each cylinder. Is the piston top clean, black or oily? Tell us what you see.

Also when you do a compression test, make sure you have a light coating of oil on the threads of the tester. Put a light coat of oil on the O-ring, too. Make sure you screw in the tester tightly. This should eliminate any false readings.

Did you tell your engine builder that you had plans to make big power on this motor? He might have interpreted that to mean he should use larger ring end gaps, and maybe slightly more piston to wall clearances. Ask him about this. It might explain the compression.

Check your O2 sensor to see if it's fouled with oil. That might explain the 11:1 A/F ratio at idle. Or it could be your pot mod/hack. Or your ECU could be in limp mode from bad airflow sensor readings (which also include the pot-modified signal). You might even want to start a new thread in the tuning section since this problem is a whole 'nother ball of wax.

 

[GTM]

Do you still have excess crankcase pressure? That would cause oil to get pushed past the seals in the turbo, causing smoke. Check the valvecover breather tube for any kinks or blockages. Try leaving the dipstick up slightly so pressure can get out. Add a PVC valve, it can be vented to atmosphere (if your state smog laws allow) as long as the valvecover can vent pressure outwards through it.
...

If you really think about this you would realize this could not happen. If you are supplying 10-35psi oil pressure to the pump there is no way you can get that in the crankcase without blowing every seal out in the engine. On top of that the "J" tube drain is below the oil level most of the time so crankcase gas is not going to vent back through the turbo seal without lifting that column of oil.

Equally as not something to do is leave the dipstick up for they will blow oil out the tube which goes everywhere. I guess you have not read the tales of woe from those who have blown dipsticks out while driving down the road. Tthey have no baffles or condensate gauze/screen and can empty a crancase to dangerously low levels.

This guy has done more than his share of compression checks and little has changed. You make some other valid points which may or may not prove to be helpful but keep away from spreading urban legends especially when they can do harm.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[pneumo]

If you really think about this you would realize this could not happen. If you are supplying 10-35psi oil pressure to the pump there is no way you can get that in the crankcase without blowing every seal out in the engine. On top of that the "J" tube drain is below the oil level most of the time so crankcase gas is not going to vent back through the turbo seal without lifting that column of oil.

GTM, cmon. You know me. Would you like me to post a detailed writeup of crankcase pressure and it's effects on oil flow through a typical turbocharger? This guy is having enough trouble as it is, I'd rather not muddle up his thread with a full blown tech article in an attempt to prove you wrong.

That is, unless someone asks me to.

Equally as not something to do is leave the dipstick up for they will blow oil out the tube which goes everywhere. I guess you have not read the tales of woe...

I'll retract that bit of advice. His car has enough little issues already, who knows what it will do. Putting the dipstick at half-staff has worked on my car, but why take a chance?

...but keep away from spreading urban legends especially when they can do harm.

I'll do my best. And you? Who was it that recomends dumping Comet into an engine as a way to fix low compression? I'm sure you know by now that there are plenty of easily influenced readers on these boards who have old tired engines and think it might be a good idea. So maybe you could let us know a few more details of the procedure; How do you get it out? What if it gets past the poorly sealing rings and into the oil pan? Do you think the oil filter can remove such fine particles? Will the abrasive particles pass through the main, rod, and turbo bearings without wearing them down?

Are you trying to contribute to the dwindling supply of salvage for your own presonal needs? (asked in jest)

 

[GTM]

GTM, cmon. You know me. Would you like me to post a detailed writeup of crankcase pressure and it's effects on oil flow through a typical turbocharger? This guy is having enough trouble as it is, I'd rather not muddle up his thread with a full blown tech article in an attempt to prove you wrong.
...

I'll do my best. And you? Who was it that recomends dumping Comet into an engine as a way to fix low compression? I'm sure you know by now that there are plenty of easily influenced readers on these boards who have old tired engines and think it might be a good idea. So maybe you could let us know a few more details of the procedure; How do you get it out?
...
(asked in jest)

Please do start a new thread in the turbo section or submit a tech article supporting your position but not here because it will be counterproductive.
..............

That so misrepresents the truth of what I posted it's transparent that you have an agenda. Go back and read what I wrote, then if you don't understand the context get someone to explain it in PM. This is not the time or place to be contentious, don't ruin this guy's thread trying to be flip, cute, or screw with me.

GTM

 

[Bastard1g]

All I know is that I had my dipstick pop up once while driving and smoke blew everywhere. Also, I am getting a hold of a logger tonight so I will check everything over and make sure its ok. I guess what I will have to do is find someone with a leakdown gauge, so I can get a leakdown test performed.

 

[Phil92TSI]

I had a similar situation to what you are experiencing. My rebuilt longblock with roughly 10,000 miles began to smoke on startup and progressively began to smoke at idle and especially in coasting situations. It screamed valve seals but they had been replaced when the engine was rebuilt. I did a compression check just to rule out the rings and I got readings of 150psi across the board. Its seemed a little low but it was even across the cylinders so I wasn't too worried. I just pulled the head off the car to change the valve seals and put new lifters in and I believe I found my problem. One of the valve seals had worked its way off of the guide and was just floating on the valve stem. The oil was visible on the back of the valve as soon as I removed the exhaust manifold.

 

[Bastard1g]

damn, let me know how things turn out. My smoking has gotten a lil better over the past few days. Maybe it will go away after a while. I will hope so.

 

[GTM]

damn, let me know how things turn out. My smoking has gotten a lil better over the past few days. Maybe it will go away after a while. I will hope so.

Did you try any more Comet? And do you think this was the solution or did you make some other changes subsequent to that application? Don't let people bully you for some of us old farts still may have a trick or two stashed away.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Bastard1g]

Did you try any more Comet? And do you think this was the solution or did you make some other changes subsequent to that application? Don't let people bully you for some of us old farts still may have a trick or two stashed away.

Cheers,
GTM

Its weird but the comet might have helped. It still smokes very little at idle but it isnt very noticable anymore. Now I just need to tune it better. Your help was deff. apreciated. If i run another compression check on my motor, it will be on a different gauge. I work witht his guy that has a snap on gauge. The one I used before was a craftsman and it is about 3 years old. Some people think my weird readings might be from this guage that I have been using.

 

[GTM]

Its weird but the comet might have helped. It still smokes very little at idle but it isnt very noticable anymore. Now I just need to tune it better. Your help was deff. apreciated. If i run another compression check on my motor, it will be on a different gauge. I work witht his guy that has a snap on gauge. The one I used before was a craftsman and it is about 3 years old. Some people think my weird readings might be from this guage that I have been using.

I really think you didn't do enough with the Comet. Double what you did before, it should make a noticeable difference though there may be a little residual oil in the exhaust so take it out on the road test and give it a couple more of those lugging pulls.
..............

I don't know if Craftsman compression gauges are covered under their exchange warranty policy but if it checks out bad compared to the Snap On then take it back and tell them it's not reading right. If it's not been dropped or other signs of abuse it should have lasted a lot longer than that.

Does you oil smell like gasoline, this can be caused by it running too rich at idle and fuel washing the cylrs.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Bastard1g]

Yea, I may try the comet treatment again in a few days. I wanna wait till I can change my oil again though. I had another oil flush incident the other day. I was driving upa bridge giving it gas then smoke came from under everywhere. I pulled over and saw my oil filter loose. I knew why it got loose so I walked to the nearest store and got oil. I sprayed the bottom off with brake clean, then put oil in and then drove home. I pulled the oil filter off and the bolt came loose with it. So I locktite the bolt and torque it down, then put a new filter on it. My oil turns black pretty fast. I will probably have to change my oil every month. Right now I have castrol 10w30 in there right now. I talked to a master tech at work the other day and he said that they used to use comet and some other shit a lot back in thier day. They said its the best way to deglaze the cylinder walls. Also, I am still tuning the car and sometimes it gets very rich at idle. I will fix that pretty soon. I found that my tb shaft seals leak, I may try to see if I can get a cheap tb and put new shaft seals on it so I wont have any downtime.

 

[GTM]

Yea, I may try the comet treatment again in a few days. I wanna wait till I can change my oil again though. I had another oil flush incident the other day.
...
I talked to a master tech at work the other day and he said that they used to use comet and some other shit a lot back in thier day. They said its the best way to deglaze the cylinder walls. Also, I am still tuning the car and sometimes it gets very rich at idle. I will fix that pretty soon. I found that my tb shaft seals leak, I may try to see if I can get a cheap tb and put new shaft seals on it so I wont have any downtime.

If it weren't for bad luck you would't have any luck at all.

After I posted the Comet as a possible solution and expecting some flack from someone wanting to play hero I did a search of the internet and found exactly 1 hit. It's this sort of stuff that needs to be preserved for it's never taught in any vocational school, not in any repair manual and few have ever heard of it and fewer had the guts to try it. I've only used it for this situation you have, I'd never consider it on a worn engine. I suspect the carb dip cleaner "Tyme" squirted down the spark plug holes would probably cut the glaze but it wouldn't seat the rings, it would take the paint off for it's got some powerful solvents and cresote. It also will do a good job cleaning combustion chambers and pistons but needs to sit for several hours.
................

By all means find a TB and fix the best one, you don't need to be in a rush on that job. Use a piece of recording tape when adjusting the throttle plate.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Bastard1g]

Yea, I am having a local guy I know do it for me. He has an extra tb and I am going to get the seals and have him redo it for me. Also, I have a stripped out bolt hole in my intake manifold where my tb bolts to. I was checking this place out but I dont know where to get this tuff or which one to get.

http://www.timesert.com/mtrcsert.html


I have had some shitty luck with this car but I can only hope that it will get better eventually.

 

[GTM]

...
Also, I have a stripped out bolt hole in my intake manifold where my tb bolts to. I was checking this place out but I dont know where to get this tuff or which one to get.
http://www.timesert.com/mtrcsert.html

I have had some shitty luck with this car but I can only hope that it will get better eventually.

I've used Slimcerts and Keenserts for 40 years, Timeserts are the new kid on the block. All three are now owned by Alcoa (hmmm what an opportunity to control prices)

What you want for an insert is something that does NOT require special tools, standard tap and drill bit. I note these are harder to find anymore, the inserts have gone up and then they stick you with non-conventional tools that can only be used for their products... see what I mean about market control. Buy up the competition, change things to suit the most profitability.

As for source, a good old time auto parts store, probably not the chains, where you can ask questions and they know what you are talking about and can give professional advice. A good automotive machine shop for they will do this job daily so will have the parts.

It's probably an 8x1.25 mm thread, so you might find a 9x1.25 or a 10x1.25 or 10x1.50 insert and then use the original factory type bolt. Check me on those numbers.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Bastard1g]

Yea, I will talk to a few people in the next few days about all that. I was just wondering if a heli-coil would be easier?

 

[Big Woo]

quote:My oil turns black pretty fast. I will probably have to change my oil every month.

If your oil is turning black quickly by your estimation, it may be because you are getting gas in your oil. Of course there are other things that can cause this as well, but you may want to check it out. Can you smell gas in the oil when you change the oil? Does the oil seem unusually thin?

It sounds like you have taken care of your oil filter loosening problem. Generally a little loctite and a torque wrench will cure the problem. If it continues to give your trouble, try changing the gasket between the water to oil, oil cooler, and the oil filter housing.

I have used timeserts and helicoils, both will work well. If the original threads are really messed up, or the hole is quite enlarged, then skip the helicoil, and go right to a timesert style repair.

 

[GTM]

Yea, I will talk to a few people in the next few days about all that. I was just wondering if a heli-coil would be easier?

Helicoils can be finicky and also can require specialty taps and tools. For many years they were the only thread repair which if possible would allow using the original bolt size. Given reasonable care they can work though you should know that while installing the wire reasonable care must be taken to not damage the coil. The problems are they don't always behave either installing or if you have to remove the bolt it can unscrew the wire. Using Locktite may solve this problem, my personal experiences are that they do come out altogether too frequently. You as a mechanic have no way of knowing they have been used so there you are with your air tools pulling bolts out and here comes a Helicoil along with it and falls down into the engine compartment. Costs could be cheaper for the insert if you are able to use a standard tap $5 and the insert $2-5. As I remember an 8x1.25 is about $32 for the Helicoil kit.

I failed to mention yet another option, you can buy a stepped stud. The base will be a standard 9x1.50mm tap size but the usable stud size will be the 8x1.25mm so you can use a standard nut for that application. (again I'm only guessing from what I remember about the size so check what you have) This may not work for all applications, but usually for manifolds there is no problem and in fact you will find some cars which will have a combination of studs and bolts. The problem is finding them, again a good parts store that caters to the independent professional repair shops or a machine shop and not the chain auto parts store. If they are too long you can always grind or hacksaw them to your needed length, you will have to grind a slight starting taper and clean the those threads just as any bolt has.

Cheers,
GTM