My machinist didn't torque plate my block!!!!!!!!

[renogsx]

I have a 2.4 split thrust o-ringed align honed magnafluxed cleaned not torque honed .5mm over boat anchor is how I feel right now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anybody have a fresh split thrust 2.4 7bolt in Reno tahoe sac?

 

[bryanwheat]

There are a lot of people that will tell you that it is necessary to torque plate hone the block, but i've been building them for 15 years without using one. I have yet to have a compression issue. There are literally thousands of these that are built without it. Even from the factory they aren't honed with a torque plate.

 

[huafist]

There are a lot of people that will tell you that it is necessary to torque plate hone the block, but i've been building them for 15 years without using one. I have yet to have a compression issue. There are literally thousands of these that are built without it. Even from the factory they aren't honed with a torque plate.

x2. OP, if you feel you have a boat anchor, you can give it to me. I've built and ran many of them with no ill effects. IMHO, Torque Plating is only absolutely necessary for max effort engines.

 

[knochgoon24]

Here's a post that may interest you.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...ock-cylinder-deformation-2.html#post152786629

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[chaclark83]

The only reason tq plate honing is used is to take into account the flexing and stresses caused by torquing the head down. The 4g engines do not flex enough by design to require this procedure.I have personally made over 600 awhp reliably without tq plate honing. Put that beast together and enjoy.

 

[renogsx]

Im trying to beat the piss out of this motor with close to 40lbs of boost and 700awhp on road courses and a lot of the open road events here in Nv. If it was a 500hp drag car I wouldn't care.

 

[bryanwheat]

First of i'd say 700 horsepower on a road coarse is a little overkill, second you will be fine without a torque plate. The more power that you make the loose the engine will need to be and you will have more cylinder leakdown. The way i look at it is that if you were building a real right daily driver that you wanted to last hundreds of thousands of miles than you would want the cylinders absolutely as straight as possible, but on a race engine that is way looser it will make less difference. I know that some of you will disagree with that, that is fine.

 

[huafist]

First of i'd say 700 horsepower on a road coarse is a little overkill, second you will be fine without a torque plate. The more power that you make the loose the engine will need to be and you will have more cylinder leakdown. The way i look at it is that if you were building a real right daily driver that you wanted to last hundreds of thousands of miles than you would want the cylinders absolutely as straight as possible, but on a race engine that is way looser it will make less difference. I know that some of you will disagree with that, that is fine.

I will disagree, but only to a point - for 99.9% of the applications out there, you'll see no difference. However, If you're trying to squeeze every last bit of power out of the engine, then a torque plated block WILL increase ring seal, resulting in a little bit more power. Same can be said for the cylinder hone (angle + RA + ring package).

 

[chaclark83]

Well if money is no object get a new block and have it cryo treated as well. Every racer will have a different opinion but from personal experience Id leave it alone. If youre worried measure the cylinder and then tq the head down and measure again from the crank case. This is how i did mine and distortion was minimal if at all. Old pontiac engines I used to build however would distort up to .005 and had to have a tq plate. Heres another idea. picture the cyl pressures that this 40 psi 700hp monster is going to experience. It will be distorting the whole time you are beating on it.

 

[BogusSVO]

Get a torque plate, install it and then use a bore gauge and see whare you are.
If you do not like the numbers, have the block re-honed with the torque plate, and add .0005 to the PTW

If you truly want max effort, and as close to perfect cylinder as you can get.

The block should be "Hot Honed"

 

[bryanwheat]

I will disagree, but only to a point - for 99.9% of the applications out there, you'll see no difference. However, If you're trying to squeeze every last bit of power out of the engine, then a torque plated block WILL increase ring seal, resulting in a little bit more power. Same can be said for the cylinder hone (angle + RA + ring package).

As i already said, higher horsepower engines are never going to have as less blowby than a stock built factory engine because of the bigger ring end gaps and bigger piston to cylinder clearance. A little more leakage won't effect power that much for a force inducted engine. I do agree to a degree if you are limited to say a certain size turbo and a certain displacement class than yes you want to be able to squeeze every bit of power out of the engine as possible.

 

[huafist]

As i already said, higher horsepower engines are never going to have as less blowby than a stock built factory engine because of the bigger ring end gaps and bigger piston to cylinder clearance. A little more leakage won't effect power that much for a force inducted engine. I do agree to a degree if you are limited to say a certain size turbo and a certain displacement class than yes you want to be able to squeeze every bit of power out of the engine as possible.

I don't think we're disagreeing You were on the right track by saying being limited ; it's most important in class racing where you can only run certain parts.

 

[bryanwheat]

I don't think we're disagreeing You were on the right track by saying being limited ; it's most important in class racing where you can only run certain parts.

After looking at it i realized that we were basically getting at the same thing, .

 

[95talongirl]

As stated above, it's not really necessary. You'll also find that not a ton of machine shops out there even have the torque plate for the 4g63 engine. After all, most of them are used to dealing with more common blocks like a 350 or 302.

I wouldn't worry all that much.

 

[turbo23]

As i already said, higher horsepower engines are never going to have as less blowby than a stock built factory engine because of the bigger ring end gaps and bigger piston to cylinder clearance. A little more leakage won't effect power that much for a force inducted engine. I do agree to a degree if you are limited to say a certain size turbo and a certain displacement class than yes you want to be able to squeeze every bit of power out of the engine as possible.

fwiw, the reason the ring end-gap, and PTW clearances are set larger (at room temp) on an engine that will make more hp is because the ring and piston will be subject to more heat at peak power. This causes the ring gap to become even tighter, and piston grow more than in a lower hp environment.

I've built alot of engines, with and without torque plates. The torque plate will affect some engine more than others (the 4G being less than most). Its a good idea to use them when you can, but is it required? def not. another thing to keep in mind is that if its o-ringed like you say, that will distort the block more than a head that is not, and most likely your machinist deck plate isnt o-ringed to duplicate the cylinder distortion that will actually occur with your cylinder head. even using a different head gasket with a torque plate will change the distortion of the cylinder.. I've heard some people wont use a gasket at all, and at the point, i wouldn't even use the torque plate. if i were you, i'd use it , and never think twice about it.

 

[My1GLaser]

Well its starting to sound like a broken record, but I wouldn't worry about it either. I have 18k on a built motor running 35 psi and I didn't have a torque plate used when it was bored. I'm only about 525whp, which is a good bit under 700

I do beat the piss out of this car! 100 1/4 mile passes, autoX events, I rev the hell out of it every time I drive it, hundreds and hundreds of 3rd, 4th gear pulls. No issues, great compression and a healthy motor. Took the head off recently and there are no cylinder issues that are apparent.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

As stated above, it's not really necessary. You'll also find that not a ton of machine shops out there even have the torque plate for the 4g63 engine. After all, most of them are used to dealing with more common blocks like a 350 or 302.

I wouldn't worry all that much.

A torque plate is only 200 bucks at extreme psi.... good investment dependong on how many of these you plan to get machined. Then you wont have to care about who has one and wont be so limited to your selections.

Well its starting to sound like a broken record, but I wouldn't worry about it either. I have 18k on a built motor running 35 psi and I didn't have a torque plate used when it was bored. I'm only about 525whp, which is a good bit under 700

I do beat the piss out of this car! 100 1/4 mile passes, autoX events, I rev the hell out of it every time I drive it, hundreds and hundreds of 3rd, 4th gear pulls. No issues, great compression and a healthy motor. Took the head off recently and there are no cylinder issues that are apparent.

ill +1 this, as i do the same, except i have torque plated my block and im at 455awhp actually no machining expense was spared i did almost everthing the shop can do to a block with the parts i had supplied. ended up having to go through 2 blocks before the shop finally did the damn thing the right way though. (way over bored my spec twice) ALWAYS DOUBLE TRIPPLE QUADRUPLE CHECK YOUR MEASUREMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!! I beat my car every time i dive it.. thats what it was built for right? so why not 4g63 blocks are cheap anyway

 

[BogusSVO]

urbansmoker......Close on the price, they have it on sale right now for $281 from $331
EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts

Be worth it if you were doing 3 orr 4 block jobs.

 

[renogsx]

I own a speed shop in town so I might buy a torque plate for myself.

 

[My1GLaser]

If you know enough DSMers locally then you can rent it out for a reasonable price and recoup your money. If I was doing a full rebuild again then I would pay to rent it for around $25-50. Don't know what the going price would be...

I actually saw a thread on Link where a guy was shipping one around to people for a fee to use on their builds. Not sure how that worked out though...

 

[Archer Fabrications]

urbansmoker......Close on the price, they have it on sale right now for $281 from $331
EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts

Be worth it if you were doing 3 orr 4 block jobs.

dang, price must have gone up, about 4 months ago it was 200 flat oh well. were in a recession right?

If you know enough DSMers locally then you can rent it out for a reasonable price and recoup your money. If I was doing a full rebuild again then I would pay to rent it for around $25-50. Don't know what the going price would be...

I actually saw a thread on Link where a guy was shipping one around to people for a fee to use on their builds. Not sure how that worked out though...

the "honor system" is very sketchy nowa days

 

[cantgo2fast]

If you're really trying to build a track monster, what kind of suspension modifications have you done. 700hp irrelevant of torque plate hone or not is serious overkill for almost any NASA or SCCA class, especially for these cars.

Otherwise, that picture is a good representation. The cylinder walls are deformed from top to bottom the same amount, one is just more linear, which is not necessarily better for stress distribution anyway.

If you specifically asked them to do it, thats a different story.

 

[renogsx]

I will not be racing in any sanctioned events I just want a track monster for open track days and open road racing. The suspension will be addressed after I build the transmission and beef up the drive train to handle all this power. I will be using heim joints and spherical rod ends where I can and probably a ohlins or kw coilover setup. I have no rule book to follow so I will play with the suspension mounting points and probably extend the shock towers to get optimal geometry. This build will not happen over night but Im not driving the car until it's perfect. My dad told me when I was 12 years old I couldn't go 10s and rail corners I'm 29 now and I own my own speed shop and I'm going to prove him wrong.

My machinist forgot to torque plate hone my block. I use him almost once a week he is a great guy he has machined several 1000hp highly abused LS motors among many others for us with no issues they are all still running strong.

 

[C_Keagy]

Never used a torque plate my block. Ran since 2008, first year it was around 500whp, a year later I took it to 700whp, then over 800whp forthe last 2 years. No issues power wise.

I recently pulled it apart to build a filled block.

 

[JacksonAuto]

There are some untrue statements in this thread, and a fair bit of speculation. The biggest being the comment that "built" engines have more blowby. This is simply not true. The goal of everything we do when it comes to modifying an engine is to maximize it's efficiency, which by default will yield an increase in horsepower. Ring materials, honing methods and equipment and assembly procedures all continue to evolve to maximize the ability of the rings to seal as close to 100% as possible. A factory engine will have anywhere between 15-40% of cylinder leakage depending on mileage, wear, etc. Our built engines have 6-8%. Properly sealed cylinders will make more power and the engine will be more reliable and will hold up much better over time.

Now onto the OP- plate honing does make a difference. When the studs are torqued, the top of the cylinder distorts by as much as .003-.005". This is amplified with the use of exotic head stud materials (L19, H11). This distortion occurs near the top of the bore, the most critical area as far as ring sealing is concerned because this is where the piston is during peak cylinder pressure. You may not be concerned with the lack of power, but keep in mind that there are other consequences to the poor ring seal. The largest is obviously blowby which not only looses compression but allows oil into the chambers and promotes detonation. You'll also get significant carbon buildup between in the ringlands, further inhibiting the ability of the rings to seal and the combustion byproducts will contaminate your oil hindering its ability to perform. The argument that the factory doesn't use a plate and the engines run makes no sense. We're trying to do things BETTER than the factory did.