My custom holset install - (The H1-3558x), **underway currently**

[Dyesuperman]

Disappointing to hear about the lag, I really hope mine isn't that bad :/ Everything else sounds great though! Hope the head feed works out in the long run

 

[bastarddsm]

this one has the smaller turbine of the two styles hx 35 and 40 respectively), it's a 60mm exducer, i forget the larger size on the major diamteter though but that might be near 70mm, but either way according to the info we have this is supposed to be the same turbine as the hx35, but either way you're correct on it being least as large as a stage 5 wheel (haven't had a gt35 wheel to look at)


i did a few more runs to check oil pressure and never got below 12psi at the head at idle andkept it consistant at alow side of 25psi hot

Yeah HX35/H1C's are 70/60 and HX40's are 76/64 and a bigger one too I think. They are huge.

Becareful with that low of pressure. Keep an eye on it, the thrust bearing will go quick running much boost on it with little oil.

 

[turboglenn]

Disappointing to hear about the lag, I really hope mine isn't that bad :/ Everything else sounds great though! Hope the head feed works out in the long run

well, depends on what you're running for cams, ther timing and turbine housing to start with, but unless you run a bolt on housing i suspect it would be similar, and like I said my cam timing is the opposite of what you want for fast spool and my ignition timing is no where near setup for spooling either, so don't take my results as an benchmark of what yours will do

Yeah HX35/H1C's are 70/60 and HX40's are 76/64 and a bigger one too I think. They are huge.

Becareful with that low of pressure. Keep an eye on it, the thrust bearing will go quick running much boost on it with little oil.

ok, that clears up a lot for me, i thought teh 60 was the hx35 and the 70 was the hx40 (both being exducer diameters)

I am a little dissapointed in the oil pressure but i'll monitor the turbo constantly


I don't know what else to do aside from clipping a coil off the main regulator spring, which that seems to be my best bet since restricting back to an opening of only .087" still brought high pressures with it.

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forgot to hit reply earlier on this post but after just going to the store for smokes i found that i am hitting 20psi by 4k RPM in 3rdgear (just as the info at the beggining of all the hoslet threads suggests i would) and i still have cam timing to play with.. I set boost to 21psi and one thing i can say is this turbo is boost happy, i can still spike 30psi like it's nothing from just a fast gear change or getting on the throttle too quickly anywhere above where the spoolingis normally done by (4500RPM and above)

this turbo isn't as laggy as i originally thought which is good, more time, tuning and testingwill be the real judge of those types of numbers, but one thing i can say for sure is so far this is living up to every bit of "holset hype" i've come across and i'm completely happy and satisfied with my choice to go holset and give up a larger more expensive turbo to do so (again this is turning out to be another "free mod" in the sense that i've really traded and or sold off parts i have to get this thing built and installed )

Traded the PTE6776 for this turbo (sans compressor wheel and compressor housing) a 50 trim needing rebuilt, and a pair of 1600's.. traded my FMIC and BOV for this larger FMIC for a supra/skyline. Sold off some FWD parts to upgrade this compressor and rebuild the 50trim. and sitll coming out ahead with a turbo to sell and or trade off for more parts, the eclipse has gotten some well earned upgrades after 10 years of service with a 57trim and the same FMIC, she finally got an upgrade in both departments and the fuel to match And no one can say i didn't put the 57trim to use and press it and the old FMIC core to their maximum potential which feels good to know

P.S. i can't wait for some DRY streets to play on, all this testing has been on damp roads where the car is constantly lighting up all 4 tires, which this thing is normally still pretty good in wet roads with other turbos, so that speaks to the amount of power that has to be coming on with the spool of this thing.. (or torque if nothing else, and GAAAWWWD i love the fact that i can let off the throttle and sit and listen to this turbo spool down like a huge semi on the interstate )

 

[BoostedBeaver]

Glenn,

This is from the HX35 manual which I downloaded from www.cummins.com/turbos - Service Repair Manuals

14. The minimum oil pressure when the engine is on load must be 210 kPa (30 lbf/in2). Maximum
permissible operating pressure is 500 kPa (72 lbf/in2) although 600 kPa (88 lbf/in2) is permitted during
cold start up. Under idling conditions pressure should not fall below 70 kPa (10 lbf/in2).
15. Recommended oil flows for the turbochargers are 2 litre/min at idle and 3 litre/min above maximum
torque speed.

I just want to see this thing give you years of dependable service without any issues. Close to the minimum and never reaching the minimum pressure under load. Let me know if you want that gasket and I will send it your way if it will help. Still look forward to the logs and I want to keep seeing them for years to come.

Robert

 

[turboglenn]

Yea, i've been aware of those specs since before getting the holset, i just don't know what to do really at this point and the reason is all other turbos have lived happily from the head and i've never fed one from the OFH on my car.. I've done a few others but they were mostly turbos with restrictors in them from PTE (done a lot of PTE installs)

I would really like to know what garrett calls for on a t3/t4 equipped wtih a 360* thrust bearing (known for high oil demands) because if both called for 30 i'd be inclined to leave the feed right where it is

ANyway... i won't abuse it untill i'm confident in my oiling setup, but like i've always kinda thought about this when looking at the high pressures originally on building this engine was "im only wide open for 10-15 seconds or less in the worst case scenario"

but whoo-haaaa i defintely want to make sure she lives a long life as possible, there's not a single moment of the multiple times i've went out this evening that the turbo hasn't impressed me just a tad bit more than the previouse trip out.

tomorrow if i feel good on the oiling still i'll get you some logs, they aren't hard to pull,, but hosting .csv files is something i haven't found a good way to do yet... how do people host their dsmlink logs so easily? i can't seem to get the .csv files to attach here for some reason

 

[habitatguy187]

Love the documentation as always. Keep it coming.

 

[Dyesuperman]

well, depends on what you're running for cams, ther timing and turbine housing to start with, but unless you run a bolt on housing i suspect it would be similar, and like I said my cam timing is the opposite of what you want for fast spool and my ignition timing is no where near setup for spooling either, so don't take my results as an benchmark of what yours will do

Same turbine housing as you, I sent mine out for machining right as you started machining yours. Stock cam timing until I put my cam gears on (which won't be long after the holset is installed) but HKS 272 cams so that will hurt spoolup a bit.

forgot to hit reply earlier on this post but after just going to the store for smokes i found that i am hitting 20psi by 4k RPM in 3rdgear (just as the info at the beggining of all the hoslet threads suggests i would) and i still have cam timing to play with.. I set boost to 21psi and one thing i can say is this turbo is boost happy, i can still spike 30psi like it's nothing from just a fast gear change or getting on the throttle too quickly anywhere above where the spoolingis normally done by (4500RPM and above)

This is what I like though, if you are seeing 20psi by 4k with the much larger compressor wheel and the functional mwe grooves then I may be able to hit 20psi much much sooner, which is great!

 

[turboglenn]

^^ i think any difference in cams will be offset by your smaller compressor wheel most likely, either way i doubt you'll have any reason to be dissapointed in the turbo once you've put it on and driven it.

i'm gonna start by clipping a coil off the OFH regulator spring tomorrow and putting the oil feed back on the OFH. Hopefully by opebing the relief valve earlier with this mod i can keep peak pressures in check. I will post up what happens, at least i can drive the car for now and take care of customer related stuff i need done, and swapping the oil line doesn't take 15 minutes from head to OFH, so as long as i can get to the spring without taking the damper pulley off i should have some results early on in the day. A lot of older V8's and even other imports like the rx-7's commonly use devices that either preload this same spring or take pressure off of it to modify their oil pressures to what they are needing.

since i have one spare OFH complete i figure changin the spring a little will not be too bad since i'll have a back up on hand and it doesn't require a gasket at all (has a crush washer that if nothing else i can replace later with out worry).

I need to get it in check one way or another, running 5psi low of the minimum is a little scary, but then again, so is running 30+psi over the maximum

If i can get the oiling figured out and borrow a VCE from a friend to lock me in FWD mode i'm hoping to go dyno this baby in about 2 weeks or so. I have sold my FWD TRE trans so what's left after paying bills i'm hoping to put towards a couple pulls if i can get a decent rate.

Actually if things go right the dyno should be right around the first of march, I have to pay for my medications and from there my budget will be figured up for the month depending on what i need. Because of my recent hospital visit the price this month was astronomical, but hopefully for march i can drop one of the scripts and get back to my normal costs.

I'm praying for 500+ whp even if it i in FWD mode i'll take it

 

[BoostedBeaver]

Yea, i've been aware of those specs since before getting the holset, i just don't know what to do really at this point and the reason is all other turbos have lived happily from the head and i've never fed one from the OFH on my car.. I've done a few others but they were mostly turbos with restrictors in them from PTE (done a lot of PTE installs)

I would really like to know what garrett calls for on a t3/t4 equipped wtih a 360* thrust bearing (known for high oil demands) because if both called for 30 i'd be inclined to leave the feed right where it is

ANyway... i won't abuse it untill i'm confident in my oiling setup, but like i've always kinda thought about this when looking at the high pressures originally on building this engine was "im only wide open for 10-15 seconds or less in the worst case scenario"

but whoo-haaaa i defintely want to make sure she lives a long life as possible, there's not a single moment of the multiple times i've went out this evening that the turbo hasn't impressed me just a tad bit more than the previouse trip out.

tomorrow if i feel good on the oiling still i'll get you some logs, they aren't hard to pull,, but hosting .csv files is something i haven't found a good way to do yet... how do people host their dsmlink logs so easily? i can't seem to get the .csv files to attach here for some reason

When I post logs from link, I just use the attachment button. I do all the regulars (browse, find the folder, find the log, and add it) and it attaches rather easily. I have also exported a few of these logs to .csv files (when I use a spreadsheet or linktools) and they have all uploaded fine.

Robert

 

[turboglenn]

OK GOT some cash today after selling my FWD trans and got gaskets, anyone help me out with a pic of a ported OFH that made a holset happy? i'd like to only pull this thing once

i've also clipped 1 and a half coils off the spring in the OFH so together i think i should be good to go on the holset's oiling requirements, i'll post pics later of my setup


EDIT: how about this, Is this OFH sufficiently ported to lower pressure enough for the holset? Also here is the spring i clipped 1.5 coils from, is this ok or too short in the opinion of those who've cut them before


I took the porting a little further and added a pic, let me know if this is at least not too much (i swear i've seen them larger, but i'm not sure about how far dwn i've gone)

___________________________________________________________________________________

Well, when my questions on the predicted results of the porting + spring clip and if i need both to get pressures in check (or if they'd be too much together) i would hope the holset oiling issue will be solved and i can get on to boosting and logging


after the short results i observed while oiling from the head i'm way too excited for my own good to see the results once i don't have a fear about killing the turbo in the back of my mind. (when i say too excited for my own good i mean i have barely slept during the days of installing and testint this turbo

 

[talonDSMerr]

I ported my OFH more than that and I still have plenty of oil pressure. I don't have any experience cutting the spring though...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Here's a thread about a guy who cut 1 coil off and never sees above 55psi.
Cut relief spring

 

[turboglenn]

well, a few people in that thread stated that 55psi till 9k RPM was acceptable theni think i'll install the OFH as is and hope for at least 65-70psi by redline.

I know everone's results seem to vary and some cannot get enough pressure down by simply porting the oFH which by the pressures i'm seeing in an unported unit i would believe mine needs a tad more than porting also. (i was seeing the gauge which was autometer hit 85+psi by 4500 RPM and getting above 5k RPM was showing me pressures in the ranges of 90-100psi +

BUt as long as the rule of 10psi for every 1k RPM above the base idle and it's pressure is ok for the lower end and top ends lubrication isn't a "required minimum" (i'll call machinist tomorrow to get his thoughts tooo) then this might work out well. I was just looking for enough to get oil pressures in check enough to regulate via restrictor for the holset and but be safe enough to keep the rest of the engine alive under abuse of 8K+ RPM pulls.

The guy BogusSVO that replied in that thread is an engine machinist himself and i trust and back almost everything i've seen him post so far so that gives me a LOT of faith in putting the system back together tomorrow, I just wonder if a change in oils is due at all with lower pressures

I plan to dyno at the end of the month and I don't want to have anything that i could take care of now giving me issues come dyno day (especially since i have to convert to FWD to dyno around omaha)

can't wait to get back to playing with the holset, so far this turbo is amazing in spool and power both, it was breaking the tires free so easily the other night on damn roads that I almost felt like there was no power since i couldn't actually feel the "pull" of the AWD system

 

[forcefed86]

That's awesome! Glad to hear it's working so well for you! Makes me want to swap out my hx40 for an HX35 bad! I also see that timsturbos.com is selling the same $200 hx35 and hx40 t3 housings with V bands on the exhaust side now. 2nd gear really doesn't put much load on the turbo, but those are great numbers on the 3rd gear pulls! I also saw a small improvements in boost threshold by switching to a 27" tall tire. Although It looks a bit goofy, it should allow me to stay in 4th gear in the ¼ and helps out with MPG. Also dropping timing and adding fuel in that initial spool up range helped me a few psi.

 

[turboglenn]

WEll, things look better, cold OP at high idle of 1400 RPM is 40-45psi and idle when warm with a fresh oil change is right around 25-30psi still, the difference is oil pressure climbs smoothly with revs and peaks out about 75psi where the spring apears to open and let the bypass hole that has also been ported do it's job well.. the spring pressure didn't drop as far as i thought it would which i'm happy about and oiling seems to be in the range of keeping a holset happy for a good long life as long as the drain keeps up under high load

To recap i ported the crap out of the OFH (refference pics on page 2) and clipped 1.5 coils off the spring counting from the very start where the spring is flattened from the factory on the end.

All in all a test drive showed no difference in spool compared to when i was oiling from the head with low pressure and i'm glad i didn't back out of using the shortened spring or i'd probably still have too much oil pressure. In my case both the rather large porting and clipped spring were required but being the best for both the engine and the turbo i no longer see oil pressures in the 100psi plus range.. there is a small "hiccup" where the spring seems to open that the pressure goes past 75psi, but then it settles down to right at the max holset spec of around 72psi (almost as if it were designed for the turbo )

I couldn't be happier, i have some errands to run tonight and i'll pull some logs while i'm out for everyone to look at

thansk for everyone's help
Glenn

 

[BoostedBeaver]

Glad you got everything all figured out. I know that it took a little more than initially thought, but from the sounds of things its worth it.

I would like to view the logs and then when things clear up around here a little, I will compare with some of my BEP logs. Of course our setups differ, but with all things considered (Cams, compression ratio, inter cooler pressure drop etc etc) it would be a fun comparison.

Robert

 

[forcefed86]

Always wondered what a lighter pressure spring would do, made a post about it awhile back. Especially because you can changed the spring without taking the housing off. Not sure I like the idea of cutting it though. Would be ideal to keep the same length with lighter spring pressure. Sounds like it working out though. I should do this as well. I ported my housing but pressures are still high. Thanks for the tips!

 

[turboglenn]

One thing i tried to keep from losing when cutting the spring is the fact that there's pre-load on it when the bolt is holding it in, I just basically made it where there was half as much but when the valve started to open it would still hit at or near the same tension (judging by feel) and it worked out well.

FOr anyone who thinks you can change that spring without removing the OFH i'd love to know how. I thought the same thing but the timing cover, oil pan and crank pulley all stand in the way of getting anything on that bolt to remove it (which is why i ended up removing mine)

either way it worked and i'm stoked, i finally don't have to worry about the turbo

_______________________________________________________________

sadly i still have no logs, got tor unning late for my errands tonight and didn'thave time to grab the laptop

I'll get some tomorrow onmy way to the cycle shop for parts needed on a customers'quad. i found my boost spike to actually be a small hole in the WG line which i will fix in the AM as well as buttoning up some other small odds andends. After about 30 miles round trip i am sitll seeing 25-30psi at idle and a linear climb to 72-75psi max on the oil pressure when hot

 

[turboglenn]

WEll, All things have been sorted out, oil pressure remains fine and there's no smoke from the turbo/exhaust that i've seen and no signs of any in the intake tract that could come from the cols side of the turbo.

The boost response remains the same with roughly 20psi by 4k RPM if starting from ~3k RPM in third and going WOT, recovery between gears is insanely fast for a turbo of this size and the power generated per PSI of boost is incredible compared to almost any turbo i've used or intsalled/witnessed in other friends' cars.

the sound of the holset it truely amazing, sounding just like being next to a large diesel on the itnerestate when in low rpm/load operation transitioning in and out the initial spool has a great tone through a 4" aluminum intake

I still havent gotten a chance to pull logs due to being busy catching up on customer projects. I can only say that the weather has been super cold (averaging mid teens for temps) but the car refuses to hook up in 2nd gear above 25psi, it's pretty much constantly sideways but i'll accept that

Other than waiting to pull some logs there's not much else to update. I hope everyone that's been contemplating a holset but was worried about oil pressures can take a note from this. I was one of the most worried, not only about over oiling the turbo but about losing too much oil to the bottom and top ends of the engine through OFH modifications, but everything turned out perfect after all and the mods were very minimal in the grand state of things. I will say over all a restrictor is something i've decidede is best reserved for BB turbos and that trying to restrict enough flow to knock pressure down on a journal bearing unit will probably kill the volume of oil going to it resulting in just another problem,, and would suggest porting the OFH and maybe even clipping the spring to get things in check. At least that's to a certain extent.. I wouldn't run anything smaller than a .078 -.085" restrictor strictly due to reduction in overall flow.. if anythign larger can get you within your goals i say go for it, other wise do a little work and get things in check first.

I will add logs still as i make progress this week. I'm sure after moday when we do or do not get hit with th snow in the forcast i'll make some head way on logging some boosted pulls

Thanks again for the help and for those who just followed out of curiosity

 

[GRAVEDIGGER]

Thank you Glenn for all your hard work and documentation on the project. I feel a lot more confident with my HX40 project I will eventually do, because of your findings. Thanks for taking the time to do what you did and keep us posted on how things hold up.

 

[Kalub]

Brilliant.

The sheer depth of the documentation you have provided will help a lot of people, including me, while struggling with regulating oil pressure to the turbo.

I think that this one thread, is on par with the 8-ish Holset threads that we have available, but shorter, easier to read, has pictures, and more in depth.

Great job.

 

[Dyesuperman]

Just to update my setup. Same exhaust housing, same manifold, but different compressor wheel and housing (mine is the big h1c...54mm and no functional mwe grooves). Spool seems to be around 4k for me as well, could be due to my cams though. A little tuning could also help spool-up as well because the 4k was with no tuning from my previous turbo that hit boost around 4300-4600. Unfortunately I do not have the customary holset whistle :/ Thinking about getting the mwe grooves machined in, can you take a picture of what they look like when you get a chance Glenn?

Besides that, I love the turbo seems to hold boost between gears fairly well and seems to pull harder than my 50 trim at the same boost. Once it stops snowing I will be tuning some more to hopefully get my spool below 4k. I would say going with this exhaust housing was definitely a good choice

 

[turboglenn]

Sorry with the turbo on the car there's no way to take pics without completely removingthemnifold and turbo both. I looked at them when playing with the turbo and they are at an angle which would make machining them a little fdifficult but not impossible.

I had thought about doing the same thing on some other turbo's like my 57 trimball bearing that spooled fast and caused surging. But it's not as easily done as you'd think. On the holsets the 3 "webs" you see on the intake side are what's holding the inner section around the inducer there pretty much period, then the groove slices through that and ends up pointing to the tips of the secondary fins on the compressor wheel

I'm sure theres pics of it some where if you google turbo diagram, cut-away or the like and put MWE in there with it.

As for my setup, other than blowing the occasional IC pipe off (despite large beads on the pipes and T-bolt clamps) everything seems to be going well, No additional wear on the bearings/wheels (noon at all actually) and still doing great, so i have nothign to complain or report right now except the snow didn't hit us that hard today and so logs shoulsn't be that hard to get done some time this week

I can say due to the diversity of the turbo's airflow dependant upon boost i'm very excited about getting some sort of EBC hooked back up on her to allow me to set things up right where i want them as well as being able to start tuning into some higher boost rtanges.. rightnow i'm still below/at 25psi running pig right at 10.8 - 11.0 - :1 and ignition timing is retarded back due to cam adjusments i haven't compensated for just yet

right now i'm running +4* on the exhaust cam and -4* on the intake and i want to get themback to zero and start playing from there. I did this setup solely for surge compensation on the 57 trim as wlel as forcing the car to eat more gas at idle to help the large 1600 injectors keep a little happier at idle

 

[turboglenn]

well, I pulled a few short logs today just to give an idea of spool in 5th on the interstate and a 1-2 pull with nothing but 4-wheel spin through both 1st and 2nd gears

I'll get them posted up here soon but to give you an idea i saw over 25psi by 4k RPM in 5th using about 65% throttle and rolling on to that from a cruise. the 1-2 log will just show how damn fast and responsve this turbo is even when going from a spinning first and short shifting into a bog in 2nd only to light em right back up again within a second or so's time

HOnestly since going AWD i haven't had this type of wheel spin even whenthe roads are wet (they are just but-ass cold right now ) but i cannot wait to get to make a 1-2 pull with traction, that will be fun i am sure of it

I was aproached by a WRX driver who followed me into a gas station to ask what turbo i had because he said he hadn't heard a turbo that loud during spool up and down on an import ever Said he'd heard alot about the holsets but didn't have much info about putting one on a subaru

 

[bmoha7321]

Glad it's working out for you Glenn. I've been getting a Holset itch after seeing the results people are getting from them!

 

[turboglenn]

Glad it's working out for you Glenn. I've been getting a Holset itch after seeing the results people are getting from them!

I can tell ya this, I was skeptical of my actual results during the time where i spent money on the parts and gathered up the things i'd need for the isntall and was especially questioing it's worth in relation to other turibo's i had and could have just bolted on in a day with no issues at all when it came to thinking of the holsets picky requiements on oiling, but it was worth every single bit of wrench time required to put it on, never had such a nice blend of spool, total power output and sucha sweet sound from a turbo as i have with the holset.. it completely lives up to every bit of "hype" out there. I'm still amazed at the spool i can get out of it with a turbine housing that although is machined to accept it is still probably less than ideal due to the change in the volute opening after machining, but you can't argue with a turbo capable of probably 60whp maxed out and still making 20-25psi by 4k RPM depending on what gear you're in

But once i got behind the wheel with it properly oiled and had a chance to get into it knowing everything was secured and ready to go from the work involved in the install, I was just as happy as could be and every moment since then there's not been a single thing about it i can consider a "down fall" or anything that wasn't worth the time/money involved to make it happen. I've had the hoslet "itch" for a long time and was really excited to get the h1c to start building off of (and am now glad i went with an H1 instead of an HX series turbo for the base of the build due to the V-band comp housing mainly, cause i hate those big snap rings)

i guess my opinion is unless you have crazy high expectations or are one of those who think a b16g is a "laggy turbo" then there's nothing about a holset that will dissapoint you ( i still can't help but to laugh everytime to this day that i hear people mention lad and 16g in the same sentence, those are the gusy that just need to buy a v8 IMO )

update : here's a log in excel format i hope it hosts properly
________________________________________________________________

i some how erased the spool times in 5th gear on the interstate but i'll say it was just two pulls from 3200 RPM to 4k RPM and even at only 68% tps I was opening the wastegate at 25psi easily in 5th

here's a 1-2 gear log where i was spinning and going sideways throughb both gears, sorta bogged on the 1-2 shift but the hoslet recovered fast and got back on it's game

Out of all the colums you'll see Air/Fuel listed twice, the "middle" one is the raw 0-5v reading from the AEM UEGO, the one all the way onthe right endis the calculated value of actual AFR that would read on the gauge. For anyone wanting to know how to do this (in case you're logging the 0-5v and want to know what it is in readable AFR, without looking it up constantly, here's a math equation to automatically convert it for you in excel..

Just click on an empty cell in an empty columnand type the following equation (in my log it's the cell on the far right that says "#value", this is where i enter the following math)

In that cell type the folllowing without the quotation marks "=SUM((f4/1000)*2+10) **the value of "f4" in red can vary, it's just the cell where the 0-5v value starts reading on the spreadsheet. Once you've typed in what i stated above and hit enter the cell will then show "#value". From there just click on the bottom right corner of that cell and drag it down the length of the data you've logged and it will convert the value in every cell of row "F" to the actual AFR reading and fill it in throughout the column accordingly (F is just the column where my 0-5v scale was put by the ecu and "4" is the row that the data starts being displayed on the sheet

in simple terms what you're doing is taking the 0-5v reading, dividing it by 1000, then taking the value of that, multipying it by 2 and adding 10 to it, that gives you the AFR reading that would display on the gauge from the raw voltage