Motor won't turn over by hand with plugs out..

[jc_is_the_man]

I recently purchased a 95 TSI with 6 bolt swap. The wiring was pretty hacked and car was not in runnign condition. Claim was new motor, etc. I pulled the valve cover off the head was extremely clean. All looked good from there and I bought this knowing it would be a project. I finally got it wired to crank but it doesn't sound strong cranking, almost like something was rubbing.
I then pulled the timing belt cover off and saw grooves in it from the tensioner pulley and figured it was from that. I put the belts back on, went to crank it (almost positively knowing it was the pulley at fault and with the cover off this would confirm that I figured) and same deal, it didn't want to turn over and sounded sluggish. So I pulled the belts off and and pulled the spark plugs because I read it should spin very easily and it was far from that. I could get it to spin but I needed a good amount of force on a 1/2" wrench.

Are these signs of internal damage? or any suggestions to what my next step should be?

Thanks John

 

[ilco187]

sounds like something is wrong in the lower end, i would pull the oil pan and then try hand cranking it.

 

[jc_is_the_man]

if u tried to turn it over with a 1/2 in ratchet and it was hard to turn over with the plugs sounds like rust in the cylinders from sitting up so long or the was ran low on oil and has bearing problems in the bottom end. with the plugs out and a 1/2in ratchet on the crank the motor should turn over relatively easy and did u check and make sure all timing marks lined up? the 4g63 is an interference motor

The car/motor has sat for a while.

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Link to other thread
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341201-pulleys-have-rust-pics-6-bolt-swapped-2g.html

Timing lines up perfect. Thanks for the reply.

sounds like something is wrong in the lower end, i would pull the oil pan and then try hand cranking it.

Is this to view any visible signs of damage?

 

[ilco187]

Is this to view any visible signs of damage?

to see what is goin on while you attempt to hand turn it the bearings could be wiped out from lack of oil or from gas getting into the oil, another thing is to take one of the bearing caps of one or the rods and inspect the bearing.

 

[jc_is_the_man]

to see what is goin on while you attempt to hand turn it the bearings could be wiped out from lack of oil or from gas getting into the oil, another thing is to take one of the bearing caps of one or the rods and inspect the bearing.

And then what action would I take to repair it? Is it something that would need to be sent to the machine shop either way?

Sorry for all the newb questions. I've never really worked with the inside of an engine before.

 

[ilco187]

it could be one of these 2, crank bearings or rod bearings but in either case depending on the condition of the damage to the crank from scoring, you might be able to get new rod and main bearings, thats why its time to pull the pan and inspect the inside visually to see what is holding it back.

and the bearings you can do at home, i would recommend a manual of some sort to read as you go, or to study first.

 

[snowborder714]

I would take the oil pan off and look up into the cylinder walls. You might be able to see if it's rusting. This happened to my brother and he sprayed WD-40 up into the cylinder walls and try to crank it a bit to loosen it up. Don't force anything.

 

[ilco187]

I would take the oil pan off and look up into the cylinder walls. You might be able to see if it's rusting. This happened to my brother and he sprayed WD-40 up into the cylinder walls and try to crank it a bit to loosen it up. Don't force anything.

or what about into the plug hole would that work also, ive never had a rusted engine so this would be new to me also.

 

[LTUDSM]

or what about into the plug hole would that work also, ive never had a rusted engine so this would be new to me also.

im in a same boat man,looking up your thread and waiting for more suggestions....

 

[jc_is_the_man]

Would the rust actually come off if that is the problem? Or would the cylinders need to get honed?

I will be pulling the oil pan more then likely tomrrow as long as the weather holds up and will report back.

Thanks for all the help!

 

[BogusSVO]

it depends on how bad the rust is in the cylinders, if that incase is the problem.
squirt oil/wd40 in the spark plug hole too.

if its not too bad you may be ok.... but if it is bad, then it will have to come out and gone all the way through.
once the oil pan is off look at the bore for scuffing or grooves, also bad pitting.

Has the engine ever ran since the rebuild?

 

[92AWDHX40]

Drop the pan, and look for yourself then go from there, i got a engine for free, so i tore it down and had it machined, and assembled. It looked fine but, im tired of taking chances on my dsm. Just for some reassurance.

 

[DSM1G90]

I'd get a motor mount on the end of that motor first-wonder if things are tweaked causing that sieze.

Shoot some oil in those sparkplug holes and let it sit for a day or two-let the oil seep past the rings. Take the belt off since the valves will be closed (hopefully, if none aren't bent when you tried to roll the motor over) after belt removal and walk the crank a bit to get the oil past the rings.

 

[jstgon]

Ok So I just freshened my engine. Added eagle rods and new pistons (stock) had the crank checked at al ocal shop and had them order the bearings for me. I installed it all and cranked it on the stand and at first it was hard to turn over and then it loosened up a bit. A few months later I install it in the car and turn it over by hand and it will barely turn over by hand. I have to try and use all my strength to turn it over. I did not PlastiGauge the crank, I know i should have but i was in a hurry to finish up the motor. I did use white lithium grease on both sides of the bearings. Could that be the reason why it is so hard to turn. The grease is enough to to close the the bearings in on the crank? Any information anyone could send my way would be greatly appreciated.


Oh the car is a 95 Talon tsi awd A/T I think my profile is up to date.
Thanks
Joe

 

[92AWDHX40]

well PlastiGauge is important how is your oil going to flow? Never rush a project, especially the engine, possibly locking up your bottom end. Grease on both sides of the bearing? did you have a manual, or any engine building experience?

 

[BogusSVO]

I'd get a motor mount on the end of that motor first-wonder if things are tweaked causing that sieze.

Shoot some oil in those sparkplug holes and let it sit for a day or two-let the oil seep past the rings. Take the belt off since the valves will be closed (hopefully, if none aren't bent when you tried to roll the motor over) after belt removal and walk the crank a bit to get the oil past the rings.

Not all the valves will be closed, one pair of intakes will be open and so will one pair of exhaust valves.
The only way to be sure that all the valves are closed is to remove the valve cover and un bolt the cam tower caps.
with the cams out, you should be able to see all the spring retainers on the same level, if they are not it means either bent valves or the valves are locked up in the guides.

But I do not see a reason to drop the time belt, and pull the cams.

Also, If a rod cap or a main cap, or cam tower cap is on backwards, or got mixed up and put on the wrong spot, that can make an engine hard to roll through.
Just something else to check when you have the oil pan off and/or the valve cover

I know the cam caps are well marked, I am not sure about rod caps or main caps.

 

[jstgon]

No i have not had any engine building experience. I have done everything myself and its a learning process for me like it is for most everybody starting out. I did prime the oil pump as well and was getting good oil pressure. The spark plugs are also out and its still as hard to turn over as when they were in. I am thinking I am gonna have to pull the crank back out and and redo all the bearings to do it right. Then pull the head to check the pistons. Does that sound correct?

 

[BogusSVO]

you put grease on BOTH sides of the rod and main bearings????? Yes that would lock your engine up.
Drop your pan, and pull your main caps, and rod caps, clean the housing bores on both.
Then just lube the bearing face, that goes on the crank, reinstall, touque to specs.
Making sure that the main caps face the right direction, and in there proper location. Same with the rod caps.

By putting grease on both sides of the bearing you removed the crank oil clearance.
Rod and main bearings no not move inside there housing bores.

 

[GSXSixteenG]

Was it align honed?

 

[jstgon]

No not aligned honed but i just did a very slight hone to help seal the piston rings.

BogusSVO- Thanks for the information, that is very helpful.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Go ahead and drop the pan, dont know what else to tell ya, do more research also, next time around, and never rush it. Its not worth it in the end i know money is an issue at times, but do it right do it once, if you can.

 

[jc_is_the_man]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I hoped I was going to have a chance to pull it today but got caught up at school. So tomorrow definately somewhere between school and work. I did however spray some wd-40 into the spark plug holes and I'll let it sit overnight until tomorrow afternoon when i get the pan off.

The motor mount is off due to removing the timing cover and easy access to the bolts btw

 

[jc_is_the_man]

Figured it out. Much less complicated then I thought but ran into a new problem.

Here is my thread copy and pasted from talk..

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Ok, I'm kind of stumped right now. I was almost positive my problem was the starter.

Background: 6-bolt swapped 2g FWD, <10k on the motor, etc. Bought as a project as it wasn't fully wired up and would not turn over.

Anytime you would try and start it it would make this weird rubbing/grinding noise and it sounded like there was not enough "umph" to turn the motor over... it sounded weak. I got alittle nervous thinking it was something internal because when I went to spin the motor by hand (with plugs out) it would not budge. So after alittle more searching and no progress, I decided I'd replace all the battery cable because they were corroded anyway. While I was doing that I pulled the starter (looked semi new) and noticed some slight grinding on the wheel. I figured I would take it down to autozone and get it checked out and it passed, ok...

Next when I get home with the new cables, I decide I'll try and spin the motor again. This time it turned with ease as it should. I was like . Thinking to myself, "am I that stupid I didn't make sure it was connected properly?", excited and putting it back together figuring it would crank normal and if it still wouldn't start it would be just a matter of time before solving that one. But same deal, the motor would just sound like it grinding again?? It is cranking alittle better this time around but still doesnt sound normal..FAWK

Went back to spin the motor by hand. No dice, will not budge. Pulled the starter again...spins freely. Stick a screw driver in cylinder 1, timing is dead on.

Before I buy a new starter, since it did pass test, should I check anything else out? Does this sound like possibly the wrong flywheel in the car? Or maybe the starter plate isn't correct?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks John

And BTW I used 2 known good batteries just to rule out another possibilty.

 

[Randy08]

same problem I have. what i did was spray penetrating oil into the spark plug holes and let it sit. then I put some motor oil in the cyliners(half cap full) just to lubricate it enough without causing hydrolock. still, no crank over. timing is dead on. so I go to spin the motor by hand, nothing. but turning it backwards half a turn worked. I did that a few times and now my motor turns over with the starter slowly not powerfully. and only with the plugs out or it cant turn over. im thinking about pulling the head........ suggestions?

 

[rbwtrans]

check to make sure its the right starter, sounds like you may have the wrong starter, is it the same starter for both the auto and 5speed cars?