Megasquirt and E85 on the fly

[JrCRXHF]

http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm

I know some people have been using this ECU on their DSM. I am thinking about running this ECU on my DSM so i don't have to reflash my ecu every time i switch fuel like i do on my honda.

Has anyone ran this E85 setup yet? I do know that the controler is somewhat limited on injector size (1300cc i think) I have a EVO 3 16g so i don't think i am going to need much more fuel then that.

 

[wishihadatalon]

That just looks to over complicate things. Just tune for e85 normally. Your wideband will display a "normal" reading running flex fuel. Also that looks to be for megasquirt II which will not work with a DSM yet.

 

[JrCRXHF]

Well that is what i do for my honda is that i have 2 different maps but then i have to switch maps every time i switch fuel which is a pain. Most of the time my girl drives my DSM and i just wanted to make it a pull up to the pump and fill with what ever is there (gas or ethanol) and then let the ECU take care of the rest

Do you know when Megasquirt II will work with the DSM?

 

[wishihadatalon]

Well that is what i do for my honda is that i have 2 different maps but then i have to switch maps every time i switch fuel which is a pain. Most of the time my girl drives my DSM and i just wanted to make it a pull up to the pump and fill with what ever is there (gas or ethanol) and then let the ECU take care of the rest

Do you know when Megasquirt II will work with the DSM?

M.s. II still needs the proper crank trigger code written for our cam angle sensor. They have been working on it and testing it but nothing so far. You could always do M.s. I and run this http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/tableswitch.html

 

[JrCRXHF]

M.s. II still needs the proper crank trigger code written for our cam angle sensor. They have been working on it and testing it but nothing so far. You could always do M.s. I and run this http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/tableswitch.html

That looks very nice. Would you have base maps to start with for the DSM I think i would want to do a speed density system and get rid of the MAF and have you use the MS to control boost yet because with E85 i can run more boost the pump gas.

The only down side is that the tank has to be low before you switch fuels you can not have a 1/2 tanks of each. When they get MSII to work with the DSM how hard is it to switch over to the new MS.

 

[wishihadatalon]

That looks very nice. Would you have base maps to start with for the DSM I think i would want to do a speed density system and get rid of the MAF and have you use the MS to control boost yet because with E85 i can run more boost the pump gas.

The only down side is that the tank has to be low before you switch fuels you can not have a 1/2 tanks of each. When they get MSII to work with the DSM how hard is it to switch over to the new MS.

Not sure how hard it is to switch. My friend keeps telling me its simple but I haven't looked yet.

M.s. can control boost but only in open loop operation. Closed loop is still not working right. Though I don't think your car should be in closed loop with any sort of boost applied.

And nope on the base maps. I could probably get you one that would work well but you will want to adjust things before you go for boost.

 

[JrCRXHF]

Not sure how hard it is to switch. My friend keeps telling me its simple but I haven't looked yet.

M.s. can control boost but only in open loop operation. Closed loop is still not working right. Though I don't think your car should be in closed loop with any sort of boost applied.

And nope on the base maps. I could probably get you one that would work well but you will want to adjust things before you go for boost.

Yeah i know i will want to adjust things i just want one to get the car started so i don't have to go look for base settings for everything.

how hard would it be to go from MS1 to MS2?

 

[Andrew7DG]

The MS system is meant to have one base tune for it

What you want to do is

Change boost on fly
Change fuel on the fly (which is tricky because unless you run the tank dry, you won't have the proper E85 ratio)

So the computer is constanly changing these things

I recomend sticking to one boost level and one fuel consitantly. With that you will have a much better tune then switching all of the time, plus the car will run better and burn less fuel.

This is just my opinion though

MS1 and MS2 will be an easy chip swap when it comes out,

You can use the MS2 in our cars however you just can't take control of the ignition system, you would just have to rely on the stock computer for that

you have to look at boards also, right now the avaliable ones are 2.2v and 3.0v
DIYtune told me I should go with the 3.0v because they are better built
Some people here like the 2.2 better

 

[JrCRXHF]

The main goal for this car is to have a nice 20psi EVO 3 16g that i can run on any amount of ethanol at a time. Soon i am going to fire up a still once i get a pole barn (i hope this summer) and then i want to be able to pull the car around back and put fuel in it it could be up to 100% down to all pump gas and i want the car to run on it.

This i think can be done with the M.S,2 and the flex fuel with the stock ECU working on the timing which would mean i would not get all the performance from the 100% ethanol

For Boost if i can do it with the ECU and a GM boost control then fine if not i guess i will have to buy a electronic boost control for it or i will just stay with my Manual boost controller and just teach my girl how to work it. ( i don't think she cares if it has 20psi or 24psi)

 

[wishihadatalon]

You can do it with the gm solenoid and also you can run 20psi out of an evo 16g on pump gas all day if you would like. E85 is nice when you really want to push higher boost.

 

[XtremeRS2gnt]

Going from a MS1 to a MS2 is farily simple, but there will be a few wiring changes to switch. The MS2 is a daughter card that plugs directly into the existing MS1 CPU location. You need to supply 12volts to the card, a simiple wiring mod there. Now, they are talking about making a few wiring input changes, the one that would effect the DSM and the MS is the 2nd trigger input. It is going to change how it's wired to the MS2 processor, so until those inputs are changed with the new code, i wouldnt use the MS2 just yet on these cars...if you did, then you would have to desolder, then rewire the 2nd trigger input(the "cam" signal from the CAS).

I dont know a whole lot about E85, but i thought i read that stoichiometric for that is like 9.7:1, instead of 14.7:1...I dont know how a regular wideband will work with this setup, since most widebands may only register as low as 9 or 9.5:1. This would make WOT tunning a guessing game..I'm not sure on these numbers though, so this may be innacurate..

Currently the MS1 Extra code works wonderfully with the 4g63, and you can have the same injector pulsewidth resolution as the MS2 if you run the "HI Resolution" of MS1 "extra" code. No need to wait for the MS2 IMO..The HI RES code can do injector pulsewidth in .001 resolution, instead of .01 resolution of the normal "extra" code. There are a few guys working on the MS2 "extra" code to implement the DSM CAS wheel, but its not functional just yet. The way the MS2 "extra" code wheel decoder works, is much different from the MS1 wheel decoder, so it's proving to be a bit more difficult to make it work at this point. There are some very smart guys working with the new code, so i dont expect it to take too long before the dsm CAS is supported. I was informed that the way the MS2 wheel decoder works, it may not be as accurate yet as the MS1 code, because in the way the decoder works between the MS1 and MS2. We will have to wait to see what these guys can come up with at the moment.

 

[Andrew7DG]

If you don't mind me asking, why is it you want to run E85? I see some of the pro and cons but I want to see why you want to run it. Is it because you want more boost? Remember you need to burn 30% more of it to get the same power

Ok back to the MSII and switching between fuels. It is attractive to put just about anything in the tank and have the computer come up with the right ratio or map to control everything....however there is a problem with this and that the MSII can't control our Spark system yet... I can't wait till someone come up with it
Something else that is atractive about the MSII is that it will run high flow injectors because the processor is faster...again can't wait till the spark system comes out.

With going back and forth from blends, one of the things that it needs to take control of is the ignition. E85 can handle more advance timing. That is where you get some of your power from, not just boost. If you only run the MSII for the fuel and not the timing and switching between E85 and premium, I think you won't see the tune or power you are looking for. Plus you want the computer to adjust the boost also for the right blend. If you do this manually, you might have a hard time figuring out what exacly boost level is correct because you don't know what blend is in the tank, only the computer knows. You can hook up the lap top and get a reading... then make a table for yourself adjusting the boost for the ratio of E85 and regular fuel. To me that seems like a pain....Thats why I am thinking it would be easier to stay with one fuel for now till you get the MS system figured out.

There are two ways of buying this kit, you can buy the complete kit or you can buy a kit that needs assembly. Myself I want to build the computer myself!! I am attracted to this kit because it is cheap and you still get a standalone computer system plus learning how the computer works!!!. It is also a very flexable computer system once you learn it!

What I recomend is go with is the MSI system with the V3 board. The people at MegaSquirt recomend for tuning people is just to convert the system to take over the fuel system. Once that has been done and you have learned how that works, then you can have the computer take over the spark system. Once you have learned how that all works, you can probably switch to the MSII chip which by then hopefully they will be able to take spark.

 

[Andrew7DG]

Just to add the WB doesn't see the difference between fuels, what is reads is the same... the 14.7 that it reads from regular fuel will still put out 14.7 burning E85 BUT it will be burning at 9.7

 

[XtremeRS2gnt]

Just to add the WB doesn't see the difference between fuels, what is reads is the same... the 14.7 that it reads from regular fuel will still put out 14.7 burning E85 BUT it will be burning at 9.7

Ahh I see, yeah i was doing some reading up and that seems to be what i found out..cool..

As for which board version to buy, it's really up to the individual..The MAIN differences between the 2.2 and the 3.0, is that the 3.0 has several components built into it that the 2.2 does not. The 3.0 board has 2 more robust injector flyback transistors on it, room for ONE ignition driver transistor, and a proto area for special circuits you can build to suit for extra features. BUT, in the DSM 4g63 configuration, we really dont need the injector flyback transistors, since the car uses injector resistors anyway, its just easiest to incorperate them in the install, and no other hardware is needed. We dont need the ignition driver as well, since we use the 2 LED's on the board to fire the stock Power Trans Unit(or ditch the PTU and directly fire an ignition box like the Crane or MSD from the MS LED's). So really, we can't utilize the V 3.0 board and it's extra components over the 2.2 for the most part, so its my opinion to keep it simple, save a few bucks, and just use the 2.2 board. I did TJ's build and install on his car, and it works just fine. Supposedly, the circuitry is "better" on the 3.0, but that's mostly with capacitor filtering on the tach and voltage input circuits, but there was never a problem with noise with the 4g63 and the 2.2 anyway...just my thoughts.

Matt

 

[wishihadatalon]

Ahh I see, yeah i was doing some reading up and that seems to be what i found out..cool..

As for which board version to buy, it's really up to the individual..The MAIN differences between the 2.2 and the 3.0, is that the 3.0 has several components built into it that the 2.2 does not. The 3.0 board has 2 more robust injector flyback transistors on it, room for ONE ignition driver transistor, and a proto area for special circuits you can build to suit for extra features. BUT, in the DSM 4g63 configuration, we really dont need the injector flyback transistors, since the car uses injector resistors anyway, its just easiest to incorperate them in the install, and no other hardware is needed. We dont need the ignition driver as well, since we use the 2 LED's on the board to fire the stock Power Trans Unit(or ditch the PTU and directly fire an ignition box like the Crane or MSD from the MS LED's). So really, we can't utilize the V 3.0 board and it's extra components over the 2.2 for the most part, so its my opinion to keep it simple, save a few bucks, and just use the 2.2 board. I did TJ's build and install on his car, and it works just fine. Supposedly, the circuitry is "better" on the 3.0, but that's mostly with capacitor filtering on the tach and voltage input circuits, but there was never a problem with noise with the 4g63 and the 2.2 anyway...just my thoughts.

Matt

You keep doing the electrical stuff you E85 newb I hope they have msII out by the time I am ready for my car to run.

 

[Andrew7DG]

Ahh I see, yeah i was doing some reading up and that seems to be what i found out..cool..

As for which board version to buy, it's really up to the individual..The MAIN differences between the 2.2 and the 3.0, is that the 3.0 has several components built into it that the 2.2 does not. The 3.0 board has 2 more robust injector flyback transistors on it, room for ONE ignition driver transistor, and a proto area for special circuits you can build to suit for extra features. BUT, in the DSM 4g63 configuration, we really dont need the injector flyback transistors, since the car uses injector resistors anyway, its just easiest to incorperate them in the install, and no other hardware is needed. We dont need the ignition driver as well, since we use the 2 LED's on the board to fire the stock Power Trans Unit(or ditch the PTU and directly fire an ignition box like the Crane or MSD from the MS LED's). So really, we can't utilize the V 3.0 board and it's extra components over the 2.2 for the most part, so its my opinion to keep it simple, save a few bucks, and just use the 2.2 board. I did TJ's build and install on his car, and it works just fine. Supposedly, the circuitry is "better" on the 3.0, but that's mostly with capacitor filtering on the tach and voltage input circuits, but there was never a problem with noise with the 4g63 and the 2.2 anyway...just my thoughts.

Matt

I could be wrong about this but in order to run the MSII don't you need the V3? I am pricing it out on DIYautotune and the only kits that you can get for the MSII are with the V3 boards...Actually now that I am looking at it you may be able to run 2.2 with the MSII. You might need the V3 board for the flex fuel option... I am not sure though

However looking at the price difference between the 2.2 and the 3.0, it might be better to get the 2.2 and spend money on other features...

 

[XtremeRS2gnt]

Yes, either board version works with the MS2. You can buy a normal MS1 2.2 kit, then just buy the MS2 partial kit. This way you will have both processors, and you can even switch back and forth between the 2(although with the talk of a few input pin changes, this may become difficult to do for our setups).. The MS2 and the v3 board *may* be a bit more usable if you wish to run a PWM idle air control valve, since the v3 accomadates the circuitry better for idle control than does the 2.2, but again, we dont really need that(a lot of dsm'ers totally bypass the idle control as it is and it runs fine)

 

[silvawolfe]

If you have an oxygen content sensor from a e85 capable vehicle you can use whatever fuel you want and megasquirt will compensate. The sensor mounts inline with the fuel supply and will tell the ecm what fuel you are running and the mixture of it so you can have both gasoline and e85 mixed and the engine will still run.
I plan to use megasquirt for the simple fact that for what I can get out of my stock ecu, I can buy the kit and have full control over everything I want.
If you use e85 make sure your injectors, regulator, lines, and pump are compatible otherwise you may have problems down the road.

 

[perley03]

If you have an oxygen content sensor from a e85 capable vehicle you can use whatever fuel you want and megasquirt will compensate. The sensor mounts inline with the fuel supply and will tell the ecm what fuel you are running and the mixture of it so you can have both gasoline and e85 mixed and the engine will still run.
I plan to use megasquirt for the simple fact that for what I can get out of my stock ecu, I can buy the kit and have full control over everything I want.
If you use e85 make sure your injectors, regulator, lines, and pump are compatible otherwise you may have problems down the road.

This is true to a point. Yes, MS will tune to compensate the a/f ratio, but it is 14.7:1, which is way too lean for a boosted car. So no, actually, it won't work on our car using a O2 sensor from an E85 car.

To the OP: Using Megatune you can build different maps, both fuel and ignition. The only thing you would have to do is tune both of these, save them, and each time you fill up with a different fuel, you would have to upload the map to the specified fuel you are using. Its a pain, but not much of a pain as to swapping the EEPROM on your Honda.

 

[Andrew7DG]

Ok so MSII will work with 2.2V board

However it is only MSII that will run ethanol flex fuel meter or thats what it sound like from what that article says.... Please correct me if I am wrong!

Then I go back to the statement that in order to get more benefits of tuning with E85 wouldn't you need to take control of the timing as well? Untill someone comes out with a program for the MSII to control the ignition on our system, I don't think you would get a good tune on it using ethanol...

 

[Andrew7DG]

This is true to a point. Yes, MS will tune to compensate the a/f ratio, but it is 14.7:1, which is way too lean for a boosted car. So no, actually, it won't work on our car using a O2 sensor from an E85 car.

To the OP: Using Megatune you can build different maps, both fuel and ignition. The only thing you would have to do is tune both of these, save them, and each time you fill up with a different fuel, you would have to upload the map to the specified fuel you are using. Its a pain, but not much of a pain as to swapping the EEPROM on your Honda.

Umm... we were talking about a sensor that measure the ratio of E85 and regular gas in our cars, not the 02
I would recomend a WB

and to the second one, the only way that would work again is if you would drain the fuel completely out of the tank to make sure you have the right blend of fuel

A flex fuel car has a sensor in it that measures the ratio because in minnesota the ratio in the winter goes down to E70 which causes problems with tunes

The MS system compensates (one of the few standalones that do) for that which makes this interesting to use

 

[perley03]

I was talking about the actual MS compensating for the 14.7:1 ratio that is written in the code itself, not the sensor. Sure, you can hook up any sensor to the MS, but it will still try to adjust the fuel values to reach 14.7:1 unless someone can chage that base value. Get what I'm trying to say? Sorry if I'm saying it this way, its just difficult for me to try to explain it.

 

[XtremeRS2gnt]

I was talking about the actual MS compensating for the 14.7:1 ratio that is written in the code itself, not the sensor. Sure, you can hook up any sensor to the MS, but it will still try to adjust the fuel values to reach 14.7:1 unless someone can chage that base value. Get what I'm trying to say? Sorry if I'm saying it this way, its just difficult for me to try to explain it.

With the Megasquirt, you can set the o2 sensor switch point to whatever you want. It can be done on a narrowband or wideband sensor, although changing the switchpoint from stoich on a narrowband o2 would be pretty much worthless. If you use a wideband o2, just set the switchpoint voltage to whatever you want, to run closed loop. For example, if i wanted to run 12.0:1 in closed loop, just set the 02 voltage switchpoint to the voltage that equals 12.0:1 in Megatune tuning software. For a 0-5 volt wideband, 14.7:1 is approx 2.50 volts..The MS will run closed loop A/F's to whatever you tell it to.

However it is only MSII that will run ethanol flex fuel meter or thats what it sound like from what that article says.... Please correct me if I am wrong!

Then I go back to the statement that in order to get more benefits of tuning with E85 wouldn't you need to take control of the timing as well? Untill someone comes out with a program for the MSII to control the ignition on our system, I don't think you would get a good tune on it using ethanol...

I havent read that article or looked too much into running flex fuel with the MS, so not too sure on that statement...

Yes, to take advantage of ANY higher octane fuel, its best to be able to dial in the proper ignition timing advance for a given octane, boost level, ect...I really think the guys working on the MS2 "extra" code will get the DSM CAS wheel working pretty quick. There are a lot of people pushing for it, and since the Miata uses a very similar wheel, they are pushing for support as well. Either way, the current MS1 should work just fine with flex fuel, and if you wanted to, you can make 2 different fuel and ignition maps, or just 2 different msq(program) files for each flex fuel and regular gas. Most MS guys keep a laptop around the car a lot for fine tuning, so it's not that big of deal to switch tunes. I mean, how often would you be switching fuels? Prob not enough to make it a PITA anyway. I see more and more gas stations starting to carry E-85, so it's not a bad idea to run it 100% of the time if its feasable.

 

[Andrew7DG]

With the Megasquirt, you can set the o2 sensor switch point to whatever you want. It can be done on a narrowband or wideband sensor, although changing the switchpoint from stoich on a narrowband o2 would be pretty much worthless. If you use a wideband o2, just set the switchpoint voltage to whatever you want, to run closed loop. For example, if i wanted to run 12.0:1 in closed loop, just set the 02 voltage switchpoint to the voltage that equals 12.0:1 in Megatune tuning software. For a 0-5 volt wideband, 14.7:1 is approx 2.50 volts..The MS will run closed loop A/F's to whatever you tell it to.



I havent read that article or looked too much into running flex fuel with the MS, so not too sure on that statement...

Yes, to take advantage of ANY higher octane fuel, its best to be able to dial in the proper ignition timing advance for a given octane, boost level, ect...I really think the guys working on the MS2 "extra" code will get the DSM CAS wheel working pretty quick. There are a lot of people pushing for it, and since the Miata uses a very similar wheel, they are pushing for support as well. Either way, the current MS1 should work just fine with flex fuel, and if you wanted to, you can make 2 different fuel and ignition maps, or just 2 different msq(program) files for each flex fuel and regular gas. Most MS guys keep a laptop around the car a lot for fine tuning, so it's not that big of deal to switch tunes. I mean, how often would you be switching fuels? Prob not enough to make it a PITA anyway. I see more and more gas stations starting to carry E-85, so it's not a bad idea to run it 100% of the time if its feasable.

Well the whole Idea about running the flex fuel sensor is so you don't have to switch maps on the cars. Thats what makes it easy and attractive!
Unfortunatly I don't think the MSI can run this sensor... I think... I should do more research and please correct me if I am wrong again..

Flex fuel cars need to run this sensor because in minnesota the fuel changes between E85 and E70 in the winter. The cars running the Flex fuels have a sensor to monitor this change.
You could put in E85 one day, run it to a half a tank and then fill the rest with premium fuel and run on the same map! Sexy huh?
I don't like the idea of switching maps

I know they are working very hard on getting this code out.. thats why I am kind of sitting around waiting for it to work before I buy any components... I don't know how long I am going to have to wait though.. I should just buy the MSII and run the fuel side on premium. when I am done with that hopefully the ignition system will work!

 

[silvawolfe]

megasquirt and e85 have been used together several times. If someone would have read the entire megamanual including the very first link that was posted in the first post this whole thread would have been compleatly unneeded. The link that was posted tells everything that is needed to run e85 including how to wire the fuel sensor. There is also megasquirt forums with hundreds of postings on the subject.
E85 has been used on turbocharged rockcrawlers for awhile now infact I watched something about a year ago about a honda powered rockcrawler that was megasquirted and boosted and the owner raved about the advantages of the setup.
As good of an idea as it is, it's illeagal to convert a gasoline car to use e85 on any highway in this "free" country.