Megasquirt and E85 on the fly

[XtremeRS2gnt]

I'd have to do some digging, but the link to the MS and E-85 use, pertains to the MS2, standard code. We can't utilize ignition on our cars using the standard MS2 code, its's going to be fuel only. MS1 as far as i know, does not support the flex fuel sensor, only MS2. I'm not sure if they will incorperate the flex fuel sensor programming into the MS2 "extra" code or not. I would think so, but it's not a priority for sure at this time...So even if you build a MS2, for now, it's either use the standard code and run fuel only for flexfuel, or wait until the MS2 runs our CAS wheel, and the flex fuel sensor is incorperated as well(may be quite a while for that). That would be a good question to post at msefi.com "ms2 extra devolopment" forums.. If you guys didnt realize, there are TWO versions of the MS2 code, the "standard" code and the "extra" code. The "extra" code is what is being devolped to run our CAS wheel for ignition support, along with many other features that are used in the MS1 "extra" code.

The MS2 "extra" code is a big recoding process, and deviates from the standard code quite a bit. They have to take out and add certain features that users can find most useful. There is a point where you can run out of RAM in the processor by adding in all of the ignition control features, so only the "most needed" items will be included. I did a quick search, and from what i can tell, flex fuel sensor support *should* be included with the MS2 "extra" code...prob best to verify at msefi.com forums..

 

[Andrew7DG]

silvawolfe

I know E85 has been used on many turbo applications... It works great... 100+ oct at the pump!!!

I know it works on many turbo charged vehicles... I am hoping they are using the MSII system because it works well...
However on our DSMs it won't work because MSII can't control the ignition

Really I don't see the point of running E85 if the blend constantly changes. It would be a tuning nightmare!!! Plus what do you do in the winter? you would be constantly tuning...

Also...

What this guy wants to do is switch from E85 and regular fuel every time he goes to the pump...

Right now using the MSI you can convert the car to run only E85, but ONLY E85! As soon as winter comes, they switch to E70 which throws off the complete tune!!!
What it look like from that article is that there is a flex fuel option that let you switch from E85 to regular because it measure the ratio of the fuel

I am quoting this from the source...

"MegaSquirt-II (including MicroSquirt) is the first aftermarket EFI controller with direct flex-fuel support for experimental only testing of ethanol fuels and blends."

I am thinking the experimental only testing has to do with legal issues...


Again quoting....

"Flexible fuel vehicles use a sensor to determine the percentage of ethanol in the fuel mix (which varies not only with the season and location, but also with the relative amounts of E85 and gasoline in the tank at fill-up) and adjust the fuel injection and timing to suit the fuel. Understanding these sensors is the key to using E85 with MegaSquirt."

Using just after market controllers we can somewhat adjust the computer to work with the E85, HOWEVER ethanol varies like it says up there, which if you don't have the ratio sensor it can be difficult to tune. You would have to constantly change the tune every time you fill up! Mega Squirt is looking to integrate this sensor into its program.

Quoting again!

"The fuel composition sensor (FCS), also known as the flex fuel sensor, measures the ethanol to gasoline ratio of the fuel in the fuel line to the injectors. Flexible fuel vehicles can be operated with a blend of ethanol and gasoline, up to 85 percent ethanol. To optimize the ignition timing and the fuel injection amount, the mega squirt requires information about the percentage of ethanol in the fuel."


also, yes it is illegal to have a car converted yourself... I don't understand why... The person at the gas station would never check, nor would police... Minnesota we don't go through emissions or inspections!
YAY NO RUNNING CAT!!! doesn't mean it is legal but no one checks and I can tune my car to use less gas without it...

XtremeRS2gnt

Thanks for posting about the standard and extra code!

 

[silvawolfe]

silvawolfe


Really I don't see the point of running E85 if the blend constantly changes. It would be a tuning nightmare!!! Plus what do you do in the winter? you would be constantly tuning...

Also...

What this guy wants to do is switch from E85 and regular fuel every time he goes to the pump...

Right now using the MSI you can convert the car to run only E85, but ONLY E85! As soon as winter comes, they switch to E70 which throws off the complete tune!!!
What it look like from that article is that there is a flex fuel option that let you switch from E85 to regular because it measure the ratio of the fuel

I am quoting this from the source...

"MegaSquirt-II (including MicroSquirt) is the first aftermarket EFI controller with direct flex-fuel support for experimental only testing of ethanol fuels and blends."

I am thinking the experimental only testing has to do with legal issues...


Again quoting....

"Flexible fuel vehicles use a sensor to determine the percentage of ethanol in the fuel mix (which varies not only with the season and location, but also with the relative amounts of E85 and gasoline in the tank at fill-up) and adjust the fuel injection and timing to suit the fuel. Understanding these sensors is the key to using E85 with MegaSquirt."

Using just after market controllers we can somewhat adjust the computer to work with the E85, HOWEVER ethanol varies like it says up there, which if you don't have the ratio sensor it can be difficult to tune. You would have to constantly change the tune every time you fill up! Mega Squirt is looking to integrate this sensor into its program.

Quoting again!

"The fuel composition sensor (FCS), also known as the flex fuel sensor, measures the ethanol to gasoline ratio of the fuel in the fuel line to the injectors. Flexible fuel vehicles can be operated with a blend of ethanol and gasoline, up to 85 percent ethanol. To optimize the ignition timing and the fuel injection amount, the mega squirt requires information about the percentage of ethanol in the fuel."

Actually I've been following the subject on www.msefi.com do a search for e85 + turbocharged and you will discover that with ms2 you can run whatever mixture of gas and ethanol that you want at any time. The whole idea of a properly functioning system is that it will adjust maps itself.
The guy asked if it was possible and the answer is yes, it is very possible.
And as far as ms2 not being able to control ignition, how do you figure? It is very easy to control ignition by using the cas or a trigger wheel mounted to the crank.
It sounds to me like you work for dsmlink!

 

[XtremeRS2gnt]

Actually I've been following the subject on www.msefi.com do a search for e85 + turbocharged and you will discover that with ms2 you can run whatever mixture of gas and ethanol that you want at any time. The whole idea of a properly functioning system is that it will adjust maps itself.
The guy asked if it was possible and the answer is yes, it is very possible.
And as far as ms2 not being able to control ignition, how do you figure? It is very easy to control ignition by using the cas or a trigger wheel mounted to the crank.
It sounds to me like you work for dsmlink!

Actually if you have been paying attention on msefi.com, currently the MS2 "extra" code does not yet work with the DSM CAS wheel, hence, no ignition support. You CAN run fuel only mode, using the generic Tach signal as input, OR run a supported crank trigger wheel. Who wants to rig up a crank trigger wheel when the DSM CAS will be supported within time? You do realize that there are TWO versions of the MS2 code right? The "standard" and the "extra". The standard MS2 code does NOT support the DSM CAS, only will the "extra" version of code. I'm keeping a very watchful eye on the threads over there to see when the CAS is working properly with MS2 Extra..

Part of the debate here, which pertains to the original question, is that ONLY MS2 can support E-85 WITH a flex fuel sensor, so you can run whatever fuel blend you want, and the MS will compensate. At this time, the DSM CAS is not working with MS2, so we wanted to clarify that. We dont yet have the option to run a flex fuel sensor, and the DSM CAS together at this time. This leaves the "tuning for different fuel blends" issue at large, which is what the original poster's question involves.

So for right now*, you either use MS1 and run straight E-85 and tune for that, and have a seperate map for regular gas and switch between them, OR use the MS2 in fuel only mode, and have the ability for a flex fuel sensor to compensate for fuel blends. If you were that impatient, you could rig up a crank trigger wheel for ignition control, but why bother. It's my opinion that running a MS2 in fuel only for now, with E-85 would be pointless, as you cant take control of ignition timing, which you really need to do in order to take advantage of the higer octane fuel.

To the original poster: If you can wait until the DSM CAS wheel is working with the MS2 Extra code, you can have the best of both worlds- Full fuel and ignition support with the DSM CAS, AND Flex fuel support with a flex fuel sensor to compenstate for changing fuel blends....

 

[Andrew7DG]

Actually if you have been paying attention on msefi.com, currently the MS2 "extra" code does not yet work with the DSM CAS wheel, hence, no ignition support. You CAN run fuel only mode, using the generic Tach signal as input, OR run a supported crank trigger wheel. Who wants to rig up a crank trigger wheel when the DSM CAS will be supported within time? You do realize that there are TWO versions of the MS2 code right? The "standard" and the "extra". The standard MS2 code does NOT support the DSM CAS, only will the "extra" version of code. I'm keeping a very watchful eye on the threads over there to see when the CAS is working properly with MS2 Extra..

Part of the debate here, which pertains to the original question, is that ONLY MS2 can support E-85 WITH a flex fuel sensor, so you can run whatever fuel blend you want, and the MS will compensate. At this time, the DSM CAS is not working with MS2, so we wanted to clarify that. We dont yet have the option to run a flex fuel sensor, and the DSM CAS together at this time. This leaves the "tuning for different fuel blends" issue at large, which is what the original poster's question involves.

So for right now*, you either use MS1 and run straight E-85 and tune for that, and have a seperate map for regular gas and switch between them, OR use the MS2 in fuel only mode, and have the ability for a flex fuel sensor to compensate for fuel blends. If you were that impatient, you could rig up a crank trigger wheel for ignition control, but why bother. It's my opinion that running a MS2 in fuel only for now, with E-85 would be pointless, as you cant take control of ignition timing, which you really need to do in order to take advantage of the higer octane fuel.

To the original poster: If you can wait until the DSM CAS wheel is working with the MS2 Extra code, you can have the best of both worlds- Full fuel and ignition support with the DSM CAS, AND Flex fuel support with a flex fuel sensor to compenstate for changing fuel blends....

Thank you!! It feels like we have been posting this remark for a while BUT Here it is again short version

Want to run different ratios of premium and E85
Need to run flex fuel sensor to measure ratio
MSII runs Flex fuel sensor that measures ratio
MSII has not been able to take control of Spark on DSMs...
Spark is needed to fully tune E85
We wait till MSII take control of spark
and when it does life will be a better and happier place!!

 

[JrCRXHF]

Thank you!! It feels like we have been posting this remark for a while BUT Here it is again short version

Want to run different ratios of premium and E85
Need to run flex fuel sensor to measure ratio
MSII runs Flex fuel sensor that measures ratio
MSII has not been able to take control of Spark on DSMs...
Spark is needed to fully tune E85
We wait till MSII take control of spark
and when it does life will be a better and happier place!!

That is just about right.

The main point is that i am going to start making my own fuel at home in the pole barn. (I hope by the end of the summer) So my girlfriend drives my DSM most of the time and i am going to upgrade the fuel system for ethanol. I am running E85 on my Honda now for 4 years but i have to change out the prom every time a real pain. So i want her to be able to fill the tank 1/2 way with ethanol or 100% with ethanol and have the computer do the work.

As for the WB issue i will tune with lambda so 1.00 for ethanol is the same as 1.00 for gas. As for boost control based on fuel i am not really worried about it i will set the boost control to 18psi on a EVO 3 16g and let her go. If i am driven the car and know what is in the tank i might run 25+ psi if i really think i need too. (which i don't think i will need to) worst case i would get a electronic boost control with high and low maps.

As a side note i really like everyone's input on the MS setup on the DSM. After this project is done i am going to make my truck flex fuel and Twin turbo 383 so that i will have enough power to tow around my broken DSM. I hope that i can use MS on that project too.

 

[Andrew7DG]

Just out of curiosity... Why is it you want to run E85?
Is it because it is cheap or performance? both? Why do you want to run both fuels?

 

[JrCRXHF]

Just out of curiosity... Why is it you want to run E85?
Is it because it is cheap or performance? both? Why do you want to run both fuels?

E85 even if i buy it at the pump is $2.30 a gallon and it around 105-110 oct. depends who you talk to.

It charge cools much better the gas. I can make it in my pole barn.

But i don't want the car to be just on ethanol because you can not get it at every pump so i want to be able to run gas when i need to with a hassle.

 

[XtremeRS2gnt]

Megasquirt 2 Extra code is now being written for the DSM CAS wheel Test code should be out this weekend..I have a freshly built 2.2 board ready to go, and am getting the MS2 card in this weekend as well, so maybe we can start to bench test the new code. It may not be much longer till we get the MS2 DSM CAS and E-85 support!

 

[JrCRXHF]

Megasquirt 2 Extra code is now being written for the DSM CAS wheel Test code should be out this weekend..I have a freshly built 2.2 board ready to go, and am getting the MS2 card in this weekend as well, so maybe we can start to bench test the new code. It may not be much longer till we get the MS2 DSM CAS and E-85 support!

This will be really good in the next month i should order my MS ECU and start putting it together seeing it is the first MS i have put together.

 

[Andrew7DG]

Can you please put a link where you found out when the code will be out?

This would be helpful

 

[XtremeRS2gnt]

Can you please put a link where you found out when the code will be out?

This would be helpful

A few threads to keep tabs on:

http://www.msextra.com/viewtopic.php?t=24097
http://www.msextra.com/viewtopic.php?t=23920

You may need to be logged in to view these..
I'm md95 on there btw

 

[JrCRXHF]

Well it well be really cool if we can get this working because i will be able to finish up my dsm fuel system then.

 

[Maglin]

I wouldn't let the GF drive the car with alpha or beta code in the MSII. She might cut your balls off if it resets on her in the middle of rush hour on the highway. Or if it resets i should say. The Alpha code for the 4/2 cas should be out tomarrow or the next day and it will use the new 2nd trigger input.

And I would MS just about anything. Hell I'd put one on my riding lawnmower if I had one. I do have plans on putting twin's on my SBC truck running a MSII and either a vortec intake or something old school like a Wiend modded for top feed injectors.

And if you can't get a flex fuel sensor then you could always just use the duel tables and put a switch in the car and have 2 tunes. Just need to tell the GF to get it close as possible to empty before filling and changing the tables.