Tuned the car @ 30psi on E85 today

[turboglenn]

I'm not seeing any higher EGT's on E85 than i do on pump gas. Uaually around 1500* by the end of a long pull

 

[Black_Bullet]

Actaully I am probably going to end up with less timing in teh mid and a little more up top, but i need a dyno to see those tiny changes in power. I haven't taken any weight out of the car as i just this year decided to start making it more of a strip machine but keep plates on it. It was mainly just a quick DD for years.

Just today i went to 11.8 - 12:1 AFR and things are picking up even more. I'm not going any leaner than that, and i'm happy with it so far and i'm saving some IDC

Told you, sounds like your getting closer to dialing in 100%, but if you were really getting serious in crutiqueing your setup, there is still a lot left you can do... Which is the scarey part.

Once i get the tune down perfect (i'm picky about my tunes) I'm going to introduce some water/meth pre-turbo using the smallest nozzle i have soley for the aerosol cooling of the charge air and fending of surge. Between E85 and meth, I'm actually starting to make enough power in the heat of summer that i'm not totally disgusted with my car when it's 90* out

Like always post your results. Should stretch out your compressor map some, injecting in front of the turbo.

 

[H82lose91]

Lean it out like mentioned to help get the IDC in check. Then go back to running meth. My IATs are generally 10* or less above ambient with a single M15 pre TBE on a modded sidemount with ambients in the 90's.

 

[JayRolla]

I think when I hit the dyno I will test afr's on e85. First I'll do a 11.1 tune and then a 11.5-11.8 tune adn see the difference in power.

 

[turboglenn]

I think when I hit the dyno I will test afr's on e85. First I'll do a 11.1 tune and then a 11.5-11.8 tune adn see the difference in power.

Please do! I'm anxious myself to find out more about tuning the E85 (while on a dyno so i can actually see smaller effects taht tuning will have on things) But my local dyno couldn't load me past 20psi last time when i went in pushing 25. So, now i'm kind of afrad that going back there would be a waste of money, and ouyr other local dynop was bought out by a corvette shop so thye could use it on their customer's cars to impress the owners with big numbers (playing them off using wrng weights on teh vehicle info screen) "my car weighs 12k pounds so my horse power reads 800" type of game..but the vette owners believe they're getting 500 horses when my car will smoke them with a proven 332 on pump gas

I felt a slight improevement to the butt dyno when going from 10.8 - 11:1 leaner to 11.8 - 12:1 and still no knock. Of course i've enver been the guy to tune for knock, but now i pay attention to it since i have the J&S

 

[GSX]

Just adding to the thread. I'm not as knowledgeable as turboglenn and some of the others so I had my car tuned by Tony @ umstuning.com using E85. Figured I'd post my results here:

Moved away from a single Walbo 255 HP pump w/ 720cc injectors to a Walbro 255 HP and inline Bosch 044 w/ 1000cc injectors all being managed by an AEM.

The car, equipped with an AGP HP 61, made power all the way to 30 psi with no notable knock. End result was 503.6 HP / 438.3 TQ on a DynaPack. My AFR at WOT are at 11.3 range.

As for...

One thing to keep in mind is the AFR you see is not actual, unless you have a gauge that has settings for different fuels.
That 12:1 you guys are speaking of is what your wideband sends because its programmed for petrol.

The way my tuner explained it to me my AEM UEGO wideband measures counts of air so my display is still a valid one. Car shows 14.7 at idle and cruise, dipping to 11.3 at WOT.

Sounds good to me..?

 

[turboglenn]

How it works is the AEm or any UEGO reads a value of lambda which is 1 volt, anything lower is richer and higher is leaner. Lambda is the same voltage for all fuels, but in petrolium gas disply mode (lack of better term) the reading although not an accurate representation of what's going on correlates to teh proper AFR for ethanol to give you teh same "safe targets"

If you look at a chart with lambda and AFR for different fuel (included in the EM UEGO instructions) you will see that lambda (perfect burn) for ethanol is 9:1 and gas is 14.7:1 both have a value of 1 volt so even if you're seeing 14.7 the real AFR is 9:1 and since both are "stoichometric burns" for their respective fuels you can get away with reading the pump gas value of 14.7:1 and just calling it good.....Ethanol works like this all the way through the chart luckily... at a 11:1 gas burn, a rich wide open target afr has a lambda voltage of .747, you can cross the chart and see that ethanol will be at 6.73:1 which is where it needs to be for a rich WOT tune but the UEGO is still outputtinjg 11:1 because that's what you have it set to display. I hope this makes sense and these values are from the paper that comes with the AEM UEGO, so you can check yours to get a better idea of what i mean.

The simplest way to say it is you can use gaoline target AFR's on your wideband to tune ethanol because they represent the same values of ethanol needed for the same type of burn as the gas wants. When you read 11:1 you know that the ethanol is really 6.7:1 but it really doens't matter what value you use since both are the same in the mind of the uego

 

[NeoZer0]

I refuse to use E85 because the feds subsidize it.

 

[Ajax]

Glenn if I were you skip the -6AN and just go straight for -8AN I initially ran -6AN but was told that -8AN would be as big as I ever need, and price is not that much diff. Compared to if you use -6AN and have to replace it later with -8AN.

 

[twack]

Are you tunning with dsmlink? you should post up a nice log.

 

[Ravenous]

I refuse to use E85 because the feds subsidize it.

Well when/if they stop subsidizing it I hope you give it a try so you can reap the performance benefits. Otherwise that post has nothing to do with tuning e85, you should start your own thread about why we shouldn't use it but this isn't the place.

 

[turboglenn]

Are you tunning with dsmlink? you should post up a nice log.

NO i'm using haltech, i cna post logs, but you will have to download the software and my map to read them correctly (very samll DOS based program though so it's no big deal to do)

 

[polarmoment]

hey glenn, if you do try the meth/water pre-turbo, see if you can try spraying some E85 into the mouth of the turbo. i'm running E85 in the 2 as well, and i'm pretty amazed at how well it runs on it. especially for track days, i can run less boost and make the same power and stress the engine less, which is always a good thing when it's also your ride home..

i'm interested to see how much a difference there is between spraying meth and spraying E85, since it also has pretty good latent heat of evaporation. it'd be nice to just integrate the PCI into the car's existing fuel system.

i was actually thinking of building something like this using my stock side-feed 440s:

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that's the PCI injector ring from a cosworth XB champcar engine circa ~1996 they also ran an additional injector on the outlet of the turbo to cool the intake charge. i guess i'm trying to look at possible alternatives to the beaten path with such an intercooler-challenged layout.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Yea, whenever you are ready to come down to KC and run it just let me know. I'll have my buddy put those axles in stock for you so If you break one you will be able to get home. And I'll bring all my tools since my car will still be down for the transmission. BTW, remember the beer you promised?

 

[turboglenn]

projectgs.. I'll have the beer no worries

I'm thinking i'mg going to have to do axles before i come since they are starting to vibrate really bad and make hte car shake in third at about 40 MPH.

I can't wait to get some new slicks now and run at 30 psi.. I feel low 11's all day, but we'll see what the traps say i guess. What's the scheduale look like for KCIR over the next month or 6 weeks? I will have slicks before the end of july and wantto come down soon... I'd rather run at night though

Is there any chance you'd have a trailer in case i break something really big and have to tow backto omaha? I'm going to try adn bring one with me, but i might not be able to *shrugs* I want to go for broke... my spare engine just needs dropped off at the machine shop and to pick up my rods froma friends house ( oh and order new pistons 9:1 or more baby )

 

[bastard dsm]

glen your still having trouble with fuel......do you have a fuel press. guage
that you can see when your at wot?

 

[turboglenn]

Nah, i can't see mine at WOT, but adding more pulse at less than 100% without any change in AFR (still going lean) i am assuming that it's the pump since even when going from 720's to 1000's io saw no change. But the new pump is helping quite a bit. I plan on building a new dual pump hangar as soon as i get my TIG, but today i encountered another issue..lots of knock ????

It started last night after a brief, ow RPM "flat shift" and today i noticed that when not flly warm the J&S pulled timing from all 4 jugs several times in a row. TOday after dinner i noticed the same thing a few more times but didn't have a logger/laptopn to determine what was going on. I had lowered the timing in a few areas already, but then after a few runs it stopped knocking altogether...errr It hink this motor is just old and noisy and causing me to search for non existant problems.

 

[Zack Huffman]

I"m thinking about adding either pure meth or pure water back in front of the turbo for added cooling and to broaden the compressor map up some at these PR's

Glenn I wouldn't do this if I were you. Have you seen this done somewhere else?

I don't know if someone has tried this successfully yet, but I would expect at least the water could cause damage your compressor blades.

I mean thinking out loud here, they're spinning at over 100,000 rpms and there is a huge vacuum pulling into the compressor at full boost, if the water vapor condenses into a droplet it may seriously impact and hurt the blades. Also, the vapor will coat the blades, adding weight to them. That could cause slowing spool and throw the balance off. That pic above of the Champ car setup, I'm guessing that the owner could afford to replace the compressor blades for each race, and do we know for sure what exactly was being injected there? I doubt it was water...

What about using a w/a pre-turbo intercooler to cool intake air, a conventional water injection setup or a good old fashioned N2O system?

 

[turboglenn]

I"ve been doing pre-turbo injection for a good little bit of time now. I did a whole test thread on it in the alky injection forum, check it out if you have time.. It's called "No FMIC + Meth, how well will it do?"

I did a lot of tests fr4om no FMIC to pre turbo and immediate post turbo water injection and had great results. Some impeller weat doens't bother me really, the turbo is older than dirt already

 

[bastard dsm]

check your plugs......

 

[turboglenn]

check your plugs......

check them for what? I just put new ones in a few days ago (on saturday) and they are gapped at .028 and not missing at all... Are you thinking some knock is coming from the plugs?

the weirdest part is this knock is kinda new. i've been on this same setup for a while now and just last night and today i started getting some more knock, but they have been our hottest most humid days thus far for the summer too, so who knows??