manual ecu and injectors on auto

[stutz43078]

Ok boys. If your not familiar with me, I am trying to do a 13g auto project that can run 13's. At least thats the goal haha. Here are the details:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/352818-13g-auto-project.html

So that's the layout but I am trying to cram every last horse I can out of this 13g. So I was wondering if it would be worth it to pay the hundred bucks for a non-eprom manual ecu and corresponding 450cc injectors. I've heard some say that it can cause piston contamination, and heard others say the way it launches is greatly improved by this method. I have read up on this subject, but everyone that did it jumped to a 14b in the process. I am sticking with the 13g to be different really. So if anyone has some insight, please do share. Thanks guys.

 

[steve]

So I was wondering if it would be worth it to pay the hundred bucks for a non-eprom manual ecu and corresponding 450cc injectors.

No, if you have a working ECU then there is no point to swapping a non-eprom ecu in. You would have to swap in the MT FPR to keep the turn right and then you would pretty much have the same fueling as now with an ECU that didn't know how to manage the AT idle differences. Save your money for a EPROM and bigger injectors.

 

[stutz43078]

No, if you have a working ECU then there is no point to swapping a non-eprom ecu in. You would have to swap in the MT FPR to keep the turn right and then you would pretty much have the same fueling as now with an ECU that didn't know how to manage the AT idle differences. Save your money for a EPROM and bigger injectors.

See, I was thinking about going with 550cc injectors and a dsm chip, but would it be worth it with the 13g?

 

[steve]

Depends on how far you plan on pushing it. Your the one wanting to wring every last drop out of the 13g. If you do go bigger on the turbo the 550s aren't going to be big enough for whatever is next.

 

[stutz43078]

Depends on how far you plan on pushing it. Your the one wanting to wring every last drop out of the 13g. If you do go bigger on the turbo the 550s aren't going to be big enough for whatever is next.

I was thinking the biggest I would go and my next step would be a s16g. I figured from what I have read, I could probably run 20psi with the automatic fpr in place. Am I greatfully wrong?

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

See, I was thinking about going with 550cc injectors and a dsm chip, but would it be worth it with the 13g?

That will be cool, man, im pretty sure that if you do other boltons you could go 13's AND faster, but here try this for tuning (for a eprom only though) http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/264625-dsmap-install-thoughts.html and DSMAP | bringing NATIVE Speed Density to 1st Gen DSM's since 2005 its real cheap and its speed density.

For some injectors and fuel pump that should be big "enough", EVO 8 stock injectors - evolutionm.net and FS: Evo VIII Fuel pump - evolutionm.net Of courae these are just examples(you could buy them) but evo injectors(560cc) and fuel pump(190lph so no need for a fpr) are perfectly sized and are very cheap, in this case you could get both for less than $100.

Evolutionm.net is pretty good place to find mild performance upgrades for US, btw.

Your auto? http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...iews/286205-diy-1g-clutchless-manual-mod.html

 

[toofast82]

The 390cc injectors at 43psi(auto) is going to be pretty comparable to 440cc at 36psi in terms of flow and capability.

The above "clutchless manual mod" will have your auto shifting like a beast too!

 

[habitatguy187]

I'm running my manual ecu in an auto car that I'm planning to flip for the moment. As toofast said I expect that the auto fpr will get it close enough that fuel trims can do the rest, and the stock maps are so pig rich from factory that leaning it out do nothing but help.

 

[tkelly27]

Little turbos pushing big boost turn into hair dryers, and a lot of people have success with E85. If it's available in your area, and you may consider a 16g in the future, I'd consider much bigger. 1k's idle like stock on gasoline and can keep a s/b/e316g happy on E85. Costs some extra bucks, but you shouldn't skimp on fuel delivery.

As mentioned an ostrich which will let you run DSMap or edit your own binaries is not too much more than a chip and will let you tune fuel tables and spark tables. Could help you wring the most out of that tiny turbo.

 

[stutz43078]

The 390cc injectors at 43psi(auto) is going to be pretty comparable to 440cc at 36psi in terms of flow and capability.

The above "clutchless manual mod" will have your auto shifting like a beast too!

I'm running my manual ecu in an auto car that I'm planning to flip for the moment. As toofast said I expect that the auto fpr will get it close enough that fuel trims can do the rest, and the stock maps are so pig rich from factory that leaning it out do nothing but help.

So are you guys suggesting I just get a hold of the 450cc injectors and manual fpr? I mean that would make since. I think some one said it was like a 10% increase, which would make it a little safer at 18psi.

Little turbos pushing big boost turn into hair dryers, and a lot of people have success with E85. If it's available in your area, and you may consider a 16g in the future, I'd consider much bigger. 1k's idle like stock on gasoline and can keep a s/b/e316g happy on E85. Costs some extra bucks, but you shouldn't skimp on fuel delivery.

As mentioned an ostrich which will let you run DSMap or edit your own binaries is not too much more than a chip and will let you tune fuel tables and spark tables. Could help you wring the most out of that tiny turbo.

And I hear alot of people going nuts about e85 fuel. What all exactly do you need to run something like that?

 

[tkelly27]

So are you guys suggesting I just get a hold of the 450cc injectors and manual fpr? I mean that would make since. I think some one said it was like a 10% increase, which would make it a little safer at 18psi.

And I hear alot of people going nuts about e85 fuel. What all exactly do you need to run something like that?

I wouldn't trust 450cc injectors much past 15psi. I've had them up to 20psi, so have others, but they were at 100% DC. 80% is generally considered the danger zone. I was also running 10psi higher base pressure. With proper compensation there's no penalty for having huge injectors on up to about 1.2k, and with some tweaks I think 1.6k's will be ok. That's what I'm saving up for.

Since you only want 20psi boost, you could also sink your $$ into a big fuel pump and an AFPR and bump the pressure up on the 450's. With the two together there is also no drawbacks, and it will set you up well into the future for bigger injectors and turbos. As long as properly compensate for, 50psi base pressure (3.5bar) is not an unheard of number and will bump up the output of the 450's to a safe level...

... not safe enough for E85 though. ~30% more fuel delivery and a way to manage it. You could theoretically just get 30% bigger injectors and do controlled air leaks/potentiometers on the temp sensors or cold start injectors like the way way old school guys used to all the way up to a stand alone. Which tuning solution that is best for you is beyond the scope of this thread. You can shoot me a PM if you want to know about what I use, some other setups that I've seen that work, and weird tricks I've done to get cars back on the road that could be used.

I will say that if you want to push a small turbo to it's limits you will really want to modify the spark tables which limits your options to some of the more involved tuning methods.

 

[habitatguy187]

450s will support that little turbo at 18psi no problem. If it was a 14b they'd be a lot closer to maxing out I'm sure.

 

[toofast82]

I'm pretty sure if i recall correctly,
I ran a 14b for a bit on 16-17psi on 390cc/43psi and they were about at their limits. This was awhile ago though

The thing i'm saying is the higher fuel pressure of the auto fpr(43psi) makes the
390cc injectors flow very close to what the 440cc would with 36psi fpr does.
I believe the injectors on the Auto Ecu(E932) are a hex value for 420-430cc, I can't recall the exact figure.

 

[stutz43078]

Ok, so should I just leave my fuel and engine management alone since all I am running is 18psi of the 13g?

 

[habitatguy187]

Ok, so should I just leave my fuel and engine management alone since all I am running is 18psi of the 13g?

eh, you can't really go by psi, since injectors are rated by airflow into and out of the motor. My bet is you'd be safe with nothing but a fuel pump re-wire, and I'd probably do that myself if I were in your shoes, but at the same time I don't want to be responsible for you blowing anything up.

Can it be done, probably. Should it be done.....

 

[toofast82]

Ok, so should I just leave my fuel and engine management alone since all I am running is 18psi of the 13g?

I personally recommend a fuel pump rewire, even on a stock dsm.
18psi may be a little too much for stock timing curve on pump gas around 6k. You can always adjust the CAS a few degrees but this affects the whole curve. This is something you will have to wait and see with a logger(knock,timing) and I highly recommend a wideband