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main bearing trouble

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sprocket2005

15+ Year Contributor
35
1
Oct 29, 2007
Burgettstown, Pennsylvania
Im having a bad problem and cannot get a reasonable explanation from anyone, my main bearings and crank keep tearing themselves to shreds very quickly after rebuild. (like within 1000 miles) I have had this happen 3 times in a row, and cannot figure out why. The story...
I got the car, when i bought it it had a 7 bolt motor in it and the guy i got it from agreed to have a 6 bolt swap done. I got the car from the garage that did the swap, drove it 70 - 80 miles and the main bearings were shred like nothing anyone has ever seen before. It looked like oil starvation, but i never lost oil pressure. Nobody could figure out what exactly had happened to cause this, it looked like someone drove it down the dragstrip with no oil in it. It was bad. The crank was destroyed, and the rod bearings were messed up too, but they werent as bad. Also, im not sure if it means anything or not, but the thrust bearing was the worst, by far the worst, but they were all bad, torn to hell and back. The oil pan had shreds of the main bearings all over it, but none of them came out in the oil, they looked like metal fish flakes. The only reason i even discovered the problem was because i wanted to replace the leaky oil pan gasket, the car ran fine and pulled strong. I just figured that the guy that built the motor before he dropped it in didnt know what he was doing. So, I went to slowboy racing and a guy that worked there had a motor for sale. A built motor. I bought the motor and the same damned thing happened. I got like 80 - 100 miles on the motor, pulled the oil pan and saw the same kind of "fish flakes" in the oil pan. I was speechless, how could this happen to me?? I just dont get it. A whole different motor, all different parts, and the same problem. The bearings were shredded, crank destroyed, and i felt like total crap. I took the block to my machine shop, had it cleaned profusely, and they rebuilt the motor for me. I picked up the motor from the shop as a rotating assembly already assembled in the block. They used all factory specs for clearances and everything else, so it should have been ready to roll. They also decked the head, replaced the valve guides and valves and assembled the head to the block. All i did was put the motor into the car, put 1000 miles on it and it began to make a knocking/ticking sound. It kinda sounded like a bad set of lifters so i put the revised lifters in it and it still made the same knocking/ticking noise. I wasnt sure what else it could have been making the sounds, the only thing i could think was that it was either a bad wristpin, or a rod bearing. I pulled oil pan, and no fish flakes!! I pulled the rod caps and the bearings had scratch marks, and the mains do too, just enough to feel by fingernail and there is also some kind of whiteish residue on the main bearings, the crank also was scratched, but the wristpins were fine, there was not any play at all to be felt. The valves are not sticking or anything, the rockers are good, and everything else checked out good. I dont know what to do about the ticking, it has gotten louder and it doesnt go away after 3000 rpms, like lifter tick sometimes does. Although i need to figure out what the ticking is, that is not my main concern. I need to know what is going on that my bearings are scratched up, they didnt spin this time, they didnt spin in the other motors either, but they are scratched enough that im gonna have to rebuild. The only thing i can think of is dirty oil, the only way for the scratches/scrapes to get in the bearings is for some kind of dirt or something getting in the oil then getting stuck in the bearings. I dont know how that could be because i literally changed the oil in the 3rd motor every 100 miles, and i would never ever reuse the filter so it got a new one each time too. Every time i changed the oil i either sent it to blackstone labs to be analyzed or screened it myself with a coffee filter to make sure there wasnt anything in the oil. When i sent out the oil to blackstone labs to be anaylzed, they said there was a high level of lead in the oil, which usually means bearing wear, and they also said that bearings dont break in like other engine parts do because they told me that the bearings dont actually touch the crank and there is a thin layer of oil between the bearings and crank that separates and lubricates them. So, the way i see it dirt has to be the problem. But, how would dirt be getting into my oil? Something is tearing the bearings and crank up and i can guarantee it wasnt a dirty assemble. The machine shop that did it is very reputable and i know people who have had other engines built there and never had a problem. Also, every time i changed the oil i would find a small amount of metal particles in the oil, but they were very tiny and so few that i didnt get too excited about it. Maybe im not thinking straight with my hypothesis about the dirt but im out of ideas. Also, if it matters i did NOT beat the living piss out of any of the three motors, yeah ive opened them up but wide open throttle isnt a bad thing for a motor as long as your reasonable about it, and although ive been accused many times by many people for me doing something wrong when driving it to cause my problems im not aware of any driving styles that can tear main bearings apart, because there arent any. Does anyone have any ideas? I cannot afford to keep doing this, financially or mentally.
 
It's not the oil. Your bearings are starving. Have you checked your oil pressure relief valve? Had you done a balance shaft removal, and not blocked off their galleries?

There is somthing worth thinking about ^^

If the balance shaft was eliminated the bearings have to be removed and new bearings installed in a position to block the oiling holes. How much oil pressure to you see at idle and throughout the RPM band?
 
I forgot to mention that the bs shafts were removed, and i never lost oil pressure, not even once and according to my mechanical oil pressure gauge i have 60 pounds oil pressure at idle when first started then as the oil warms up it drops to 40 at idle. That is with 10w30 mobil one oil in it. And my oil pressure gauge completely pegs out as soon as i touch the gas pedal. As far as checking my oil pressure relief valve, no i didnt, and i dont even know what it is

No there was nothing the same used with the three engines.
 
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This is the oil relief on the buisness side of the oil filter housing. In this picture its ported to help remedy excessive oil pressure resulting from BS removal

Im not sure if catastrophic failure of bearings would be related to Too much oil pressure, but my machinest told me I shouldnt have a problem it considering my oil pressure it very high as well. When you disassembled the previous motors, did you check the clearances on the bearings? Maybe they are too tight.... which can also increase oil pressure. I may have missed it, but did you re-use the same block everytime, just different cranks? It could be a possibility that the line hone on the main section is off enough to where it places excessive stress on the crank and bearings causing it to eat bearings. When ever you pop the motor apart, check the clearance values on the all the bearings and write them down and bring both the bearings and your writing to a machine shop. Most experienced machinests' can examine them and determine what went wrong.
 
Yeah, like these guys said, they arent seeing oil. You can assume the oil galleries arent clogged with metal if you used a different block the second time. I know people who do BS removals and never heard of porting the oil relief valve and they dont have problems. Do you have a gasket on your pick up tube? Is the pick up tube clogged? I dont see see how this could have happened to three engines if you say NOTHING is the same. Not even the front case? So both blocks have had the BS removed? Make sure the BS oil galleries are indeed blocked off, giving you more pressure to move the oil. If the oil pump is new, or even works for that matter I cant figure how its not circulating oil, unless something is clogged because its not that complex of a system.

You other guys think something somwhere could be clogged after the filter housing, to me 40 at idle seems kinda high, my car likes to sit at 15-20 at idle and rocket up to 80-90 at WOT, I have BS removal but my relief valve is ported too, 40 at idle just seems a little high.
 
I have an idea...
What head are you using? Stock DOHC?
I think someone else up there is begining to think along the same line as I have...
My theory is:

An oil passage may be severely restricted (likely not blocked completely), possibly in your cylinder head since you're probably using the same one on each failed engine. The excess pressure build up is causing the oil pump relief valve to open once you start climbing the rpms. You see 40psi at warm idle because the relief valve is closed at that point. Once you quickly peg the gauge the relief valve is completely open and becoming overrun. Oil is bypasssing the crank and being shot back into the oilpan. Some oil is making it to the crank because the relief valve is overrun, but at higher rpms it is not enough to counteract the increased oil film load. Bearings are being severly underfed, starting at just beyond that magical rpm point where the relief valve has just become fully open, in your case probably around 2500-3000 rpms, and ending when the relief overrun is severe enough to push acceptable volume.

I think Defiant's idea of placing the oil pressure gauge on the head may tell us a lot here. I expect it to read quite low.

Steps to success:
Check the headgasket and make sure you have all oil feed/drain holes uncovered.

Have the head disassembled and checked thoroughly by a machine shop. Pay special attention to areas that have recieved RTV or locktited bolts in the past and areas where an oil passage lies behind a manifold stud. Ask them to inspect the head oil passages checking for patentcy at low pressure with air, then possibly flushed under pressure with caustic wash, then rinsed and oiled.

Replace the main and rod bearings, check the cam journals for scoring. Have the main bearings installed at the looser end of the clearance range, but still within factory spec. Tell the engine assembly man to verify all clearances with a micrometer, don't let him brush you off or tell you that all bearings are the same.
 
yes, I used a different block the second time, and that same block was used the third time. The oil pickup tube has a gasket on it. No, the pick up tube is not blocked. Both blocks had the bs shafts removed, and i used a new front case each time and the galleries are blocked off. What head am i using?? Im using a stock DOHC head that has 272 cams in it and 1mm oversize valves with revised lifters.

i also used a different head the second time, and that same head was used the third time
 
Forty PSI at idle is too high! The fact that the main bearings are failing prematurely
is indicative that they are not receiving sufficient oil. Therefore the probable blockage is in the crankshaft itself. Did you use the same crankshaft on all three builds? Forty to sixty PSI at WOT is normal. Internal oil leaks would drop the pressure not increase it. It has to be a blockage. There are access holes on boths ends of the head that have set screw type caps in them. They give access to the four oil rail in the head. Take one out and install an oil gauge there to see what the pressure in the head is. It should be 40-50% less. If it is say about only 10 PSI then you could have the head gasket on wrong or a 2g gasket on a 1G setup or vice versa. There is a lot of good advice in this thread. But if a machinist examines one of your main bearings and says oil starvation then the blockage is in the crank or what supplies the crank.
 
I went to the machine shop that has my motor today and they tryed to convince me that its normal for my bearings and crank to have scratches in them that are not only visible but can be felt if you rub your fingernail across them. I say bullshit, the bearings and crank have 1200 miles on them. I mean, its not normal for bearings and/or cranks to get scratches in them right?
 
Im not sure what was causing my problems before, but i had the engine rebuilt for the 4th time and i think its ok now
 
are you an auto trans or a 5 speed? If you are a 5 speed, what clutch are you using?


some minor scratching is not uncommon on the bearing surface or on the crank
 
5 speed. Im using an ACT 2600 clutch. why?

well since you have 3 now 4 engines in the car , all with about the same issues, check your tranny for abnomal play, every time tou step on the clutch, your trying to shove the crank out of the front of the block.

I am wondering if the trans is putting the crank in a bind, or if the clutch is trying to move too far.
 
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