Loud whine at startup, pics +video

[bluegs03]

Hey guys, so i started the car up and now a huge new problem has reared its ugly head.

I took the car literally about 50 feet forwards then back into the garage and then this horrible whine sound started from the engine.

Some things ive noticed,
1.the sound increases and decreases with engine speed, but cant be heard when its just cranking over.

2. Its not any of the accessory pulleys or belts as i have removed the power steering belt, the alternator belt, and the a/c belt.

3. The timing belt isnt rubbing on the case cover because i removed that and the sound still happens. Also the belt doesnt have any wear that would suggest rubbing.

4. Almost everything in the engine is brand new.


5. I took the valve cover off and all of the rocker arms are in place and none of the camshafts have any scoring on them??

Anyone have any ideas of what it could be,
Attached is a picture and a video of the noise/ cylinder head

Heres the video
blackcar005.flv video by jetstar14 - Photobucket
picture

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[bluegs03]

Ok well after looking closer at the vehicle when its on, the noise appears to be emanating from the crankshaft sprocket area?

Now correct me if im wrong but a spun bearing would make a knocking sound as the rod bounced around on the crankshaft right? Please dont tell me i spun a bearing in 50ft of driving!

It is coming somewhere from that area as it is loudest around there, there arent any metal flakes or anything like its wearing against the front case cover or something like that.

Im really stumped on this one, it isnt just a new car noise that will go away, its quite loud

 

[Rob10_99]

It almost sounds like a PS pump =)

 

[dsmfreak1984]

deff. sounds like one of your accessories. my money's on power steering pump like previously stated or possibly a water pump??? deff. one of the accessories though. go through all the standard trouble shooting for the different accessories. 5 bucks says you will find it in no time.

 

[Rob10_99]

Waterpumps aren't usually noisy unless its like a grinding noise, but they leak and fail before any noise is heard. The PS pump just sounds like its low on fluid or just dying.
Turn your wheels all the way to lock and it should change tone =)

 

[squeak104]

Waterpumps aren't usually noisy unless its like a grinding noise, but they leak and fail before any noise is heard. The PS pump just sounds like its low on fluid or just dying.
Turn your wheels all the way to lock and it should change tone =)

Amazing how p/s pumps can make noise when they are not turning. Read his original post. He has removed accessory belts and the noise remains.

 

[romeen]

Check the timing belt tension. It may be too tight.

 

[bluegs03]

sorry it cant be the accesory devices like the power steering pump or the alternator or the water pump because the belts arent connected. The only belt on that side of the engine is the timing belt. I originally thought it was the accessory pumps making those noises as well but then i removed them and it still makes that noise.

Also quickly i have an early 90 car and apparently according to vfaq
"If you replace the timing belt idler pulley NOTE that early 90s used a different idler pulley than later cars. The early cars used part # MD121993, later cars used MD156604. If you don't know WHICH your car uses, order the MD156604 AND an M10x22 bolt MF241281 and a lockwasher, as the newer idler pulley has a different center, requiring a much shorter bolt."

I did not get this idler pulley and got the later model idler pulley, now the noise has only started since i drove it that little distance and it didnt make it when i first started up the car. If this was the problem wouldnt it make it since the first second i started up the car?

 

[bluegs03]

Check the timing belt tension. It may be too tight.

How would you be able to tell it is too tight? i followed the vfaq pretty closely and the tensioner 2 bolt holes look exactly like they do in the vfaq example?

 

[bluegs03]

one idea i did have on the idler pulley is i could install my old one and see if that fixes the noise, if it does replace it with a new one, what do you guys think?

 

[Rob10_99]

<== blind

Yeah I would swap it out real quick and see if that fixes the noise, wouldn't hurt to try.
I always set it with the right amount of preload just like the vfaq. The 'tension' is your oil pressure + spring pressure pushing on that idler, but it has very little travel so has to be setup correctly.

Which BSEK did you use? was that install with your new engine your talking about? I assume that engine is the new forged rebuild?

 

[romeen]

You need to make sure that the distance between the tensioner pivot arm and the auto tensioner is between .15-.18" (3.8-4.5mm). You can use an appropriately sized drill bit for this. Refer to the vfaq for more details.

Relying only on the position of the two holes in the tensioner pulley is not completely reliable.

I don't know about the different idler pulleys causing the sound but you can try it. But before you remove the t-belt I would first check the tension by measuring the gap as I mentioned.

 

[bluegs03]

<== blind

Yeah I would swap it out real quick and see if that fixes the noise, wouldn't hurt to try.
I always set it with the right amount of preload just like the vfaq. The 'tension' is your oil pressure + spring pressure pushing on that idler, but it has very little travel so has to be setup correctly.

Which BSEK did you use? was that install with your new engine your talking about? I assume that engine is the new forged rebuild?

I guess i should give a little more info, i used a bsek kit that was given to me by my engine machinest, i have no idea who made the kit but it was 2 bearings with no holes, a freeze plug and a stubby shaft? it looked the same as the other kits out there. This is the new engine with forged internals and the bse was installed with the new engine.

romeen, thanks! i will definatley check my tension before i tear the timing belt apart AGAIN, i swear ive had this thing apart at least 20 times. if i go to a hardware store they should have the correct size drill bit? i happen to live in a horribly unmecanically inclined family. never mind even my family has a drill with drill bits i found out!

 

[Rob10_99]

For the hole in the tensioner all you need is something like an allen wrench or similar, I've used a cotter pin before =P
As for the BSEK, did it have a groove in the stubby? I still think that whine is your PS pump .
Sounds like gears or the slats inside the PS pump, gears being your oil pump, gasp.
sup romeen! long time no see huh?

 

[bluegs03]

well i did as you guy suggested and loosened the timing belt to specs, lo and behold poof! the noise is so quite now that it is almost inaudible at idle and you can only hear it when you press your head inside the drivers front wheel well.

It actually sounds like a normal car now! woah! im uploading a video now to show you guys the difference, and to make sure i cured the problem hehe. Major thanks go out to romeen, ill try and make sure the mods know how helpful you where, and everyone else thank you. My car is finally on the road for the first time in 5 years because of this site.

if you listen to this one then the first one it is night and day difference
blackcar007.flv video by jetstar14 - Photobucket

 

[Rob10_99]

Yeah tons better, just lifter tick now?

 

[bluegs03]

yea but oh well after the break in oil ill throw in some stabilizer in there and see if it disappears.

 

[romeen]

Your lifter tick actually isn't bad at all. Completely normal.

Glad the problem got resolved.

 

[Bluesideup]

I had the exact same problem on my 2G and it was not enough tension and a tensioner pulley on it's way out. The bearings on the tensioner pulley were getting bad enough to drag on the timing belt and make the noise.

I was freaked out at first too thinking it was an internal bearing.

 

[GSTRyder]

Hey guys, so i started the car up and now a huge new problem has reared its ugly head.

I took the car literally about 50 feet forwards then back into the garage and then this horrible whine sound started from the engine.

Some things ive noticed,
1.the sound increases and decreases with engine speed, but cant be heard when its just cranking over.

2. Its not any of the accessory pulleys or belts as i have removed the power steering belt, the alternator belt, and the a/c belt.

3. The timing belt isnt rubbing on the case cover because i removed that and the sound still happens. Also the belt doesnt have any wear that would suggest rubbing.

4. Almost everything in the engine is brand new.


5. I took the valve cover off and all of the rocker arms are in place and none of the camshafts have any scoring on them??

Anyone have any ideas of what it could be,
Attached is a picture and a video of the noise/ cylinder head

Heres the video
blackcar005.flv video by jetstar14 - Photobucket
picture

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Under exceleraton does it go away? Pull the oil cap off, start it and see if it is gone, if so you pcm valve is plugged or you have a vacuum line in the wrong place.

 

[bluegs03]

Well today i have a HUGE update, it was the biggest oh sh!+ moment of the entire engine build! The sound continued at higher rpms and i noticed my oil pressure was getting lower and lower, i shut the car off and towed it home. Thinking i had done something wrong with my oil pump i disassembled the whole thing AGAIN .

What i found scared the daylights out of me. When i pulled the oil pan i noticed a large metallic object in the bottom of the pan... uh oh! It turns out this was my balance shaft stubby! EEEEK! also i found out my balance shaft stubby doesnt have the oil groove like the Mitsubishi one, i am pretty pissed at my machinest who gave me the BSE kit and promised it was all Mitsubishi parts.

Anyway what happened was when i took it up and down the driveway, the bolt snapped off that held the stubby shaft to the gear thus causing the gear to go crazy! it bounced around in the area which would explain the metallic whining noise! For a while i had some oil pressure which i hoped saved me, but as the gear bounced around enough it wore away at the teeth on the gear and my oil pressure dropped lower and lower. Now this all happened in less than a mile according to my odometer as it hasnt changed. I never went full throttle and never went above 2000 rpm

Now the million dollar question, the engine was idled for 5ish min after this gear had worn itself down, how can i check to see if the engine is ok? Im assuming that it was oil starved There are no metallic flakes of any kind in the bottom of the oil pan and the oil doesnt have a sparkle to it. The engine never made any screeching sounds and it was fully lubed up with assembly lube, is there a chance that the assembly lube saved my engine?


HUGE shout out to Rob10_99 who first thought of the problem and sent me down the right path, i appreciate it alot!

Carnage pics!

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[bluegs03]

I guess the next logical step would be to create a parts list and ask if you think i need anything or what i can reuse.

The Front case is highly pollished inside the oil pump but besides from that its almost new, do i have to get a new one? Basically would you replace the front case if this happened to you?
I need both new gears inside the oil pump
New front case gasket
New BSE stubby shaft (Comes with bolt or get one? and if i get one how will i know this wont happen again?)
New oil pan Gasket
New can of copper gasket spray on
New Grey RTV bottle
Motor Oil
New oil pick up tube gasket

Anything im missing?
Also do i need to get the special 90 straight cut oil pump gears? or will the ones from extreme psi work just fine, i have a sept 89 build date fyi

 

[Rob10_99]

I've got a 91 but i used that straight cut oil pump and case. Looks like that pump is pretty scored, I would junk it before it ruins the rest of your engine as well.
Like you said your oil looks good, but your bearings might still be garbage if your oil pump gear/pully fell off. It wouldn't have any pressure to spit the bad oil out of the starved bearings. I would pull a main or rod just to see what they look like.

How did this happen anyway? Not torquing the oil pump pully?

 

[Littlebeeper]

i have a 2 different 6-bolts that i opened up to do a BSE on. one had the strait cut teeth the other had the ones at an angle. they swapped over with no problems. the difference i did notice is that somehow the front case is slightly different. i picked up a oil plate to seal the oil pump gears and 1 of the bolt holes didn't line up. i almost freaked till i realized i had both engine cases apart and side by side. i tried the other oil pump cover and everything lined up. that was the only difference i noticed, just 1 oil pump cover bolt hole aligned maybe 2 mm off from the other case. everything else was identical.
i would get the newer ones, i read reports that sometimes the strait cut teeth are a bit noisy, like when you run your car in reverse as those are strait cut teeth. not that loud obviously as the gears are way smaller but still they may emit a whine or drone.

i am way surprised that there is almost no carnage in the oil pump. the pics don't show the gears up close but they look undamaged. the stubby shaft on the other hand looks like it got hit by a rod or counter weight. and then the block. those are some pretty deep dents on that thing

by the way, i used loc-tite blue on that bolt and tightened it down. you can use red also as if you ever need to replace pump again, may as wel get the stubby and bolt too, only 20 bucks for both and the piece of mind knowing its loc-tite'd (is that a word ) in there is worth it. i had a bi*** taking the bolt off with blue and that was with an impact.

 

[bluegs03]

I coulda sworn i torqued the bolt down but this was a year ago and i dont really remember, the bolt broke off in there so it didnt come loose?

So the way to see if my engine is toast is to pull a rod and see what the bearing looks like? Does it matter which rod cap i pull? if there is damage it would be to all of them correct?

The gear didnt fall off it just wasnt secure in the housing, it was still spinning and creating some oil pressure but it was definitely low, like a tick or 2 above the lowest mark on the oil gauge. Basically the gear was bouncing around in the housing (exaggeration) but still had enough teeth to be turned by the other gear. Thats why the gear got damaged but was still able to create some pressure


Thanks for the info littlebeeper, since im replacing the front case the new gears will work just fine in that one. The reason there isnt a ton of damage is that the engine only ran with it in this condition for a few min 1-2 and only at idle, the engine started to go lower and lower on oil pressure so i shut it off. You better believe im red locktiting the new bolt!

I've got a 91 but i used that straight cut oil pump and case. Looks like that pump is pretty scored, I would junk it before it ruins the rest of your engine as well.
Like you said your oil looks good, but your bearings might still be garbage if your oil pump gear/pully fell off. It wouldn't have any pressure to spit the bad oil out of the starved bearings. I would pull a main or rod just to see what they look like.

How did this happen anyway? Not torquing the oil pump pully?