Loss of power after warmup + engine noise

[volkstroker]

Hi, I just bought an 1999 Eclipse GS n/t (420a if google serves me right) about 4 days ago... my first eclipse, hence why I'm new to the forum. The car has been very poorly maintained by the P/O, however I've been able to salvage most of the power back through basic maintenance. I've got one problem left, and I've searched this board all over the place and can't find a thread with the same symptoms... found some with power loss after a few minutes, but those had tow-worthy failures and/or other symptoms inconsistent with mine.

IM GOING TO GIVE AS MUCH DETAIL AS I CAN.

When I start the car when it's cold (or at least not operating temp), it runs great. It's got some valve/lifter tick or something in the head, but it pulls pretty good in all gears. HOWEVER, after about 20 minutes of driving, the engine tick seems to get louder and the car starts to lose power. It idles lower and sometimes tries to die when you push in the clutch and I have to tap the gas to make it go back to idle. If I turn the car off for a few and back on, the problem persists.

The persistence of the problem after a few minutes' break makes me think it's not the fuel filter or catalytic converter. The increased ticking noise MIGHT be pinging (I'm not familiar with how these engines sound when they ping yet), but the temperature gauge reads normal temp... The heater, however, seems to get pretty damn hot after about 5/10 minutes driving, but again I'm not familiar with these cars yet and how good the heater should work. IT COULD BE OVERHEATING.

SO: Lets say I discover the car is not simply overheating. What could be other causes of this problem?

The car has quit on me a couple times but always fires back up and continues, although it continues with the problem still... I've never had it hard fail to where I can't get it started again. I'm not sure if the N/T has a knock sensor, and I feel that if it's a fuel filter/catalytic converter problem, it would be fixed by letting the car sit for a few... which isn't the case.

SECOND: Lets say it IS overheating.

It does blow white smoke, mostly when I first start the car and usually goes away or at least gets much less intense when it warms up. Also, it doesn't smell like antifreeze, it smells a bit more bitter than that, like maybe burning motor oil. There's no water in the oil as far as I can tell, so I'm guessing the head gasket is fine. I checked the coolant and it's still green and seems to be full. I started up the car when the temp gauge said it was near operating temperature; it slowly raised and started to slowly overflow the radiator cap, I'm not sure if the thermostat is supposed to open before then. On my friend's truck it opened before it overflowed. ONE of the two fans on the radiator is running, but again I'm not sure if they both run together all the time or if the 2nd one only kicks on in certain occasions. Either way I never see it kick on. Lastly, is it somewhat common for the temp gauge to rise to op temp and stay there, and the car still overheat? I've read a few threads on bad temp sensors but they include random spikes and inconsistencies, and my gauge starts at cold, slowly works to the middle and stops as you'd normally expect.

THATS WHATS UP, so any advice regarding this issue will be truly appreciated. I REALLY don't want to have to pay a shop for a diagnostic if I don't have to.

 

[Fotowntalon]

I'm scared your tick may be a thrown rod bearing, with the hood popped, if you pull the throttle cable does the ticking increase significantly? Another way to tell, less damaging but more work, is drain the oil and drop the oil pan and see if there is any play in the rods. You said you did proper maintenance, was there any metal pieces when you drained it the first time?

Also do you have any CEL's (check engine lights), i know you said you can't pay for a diagnostic, but auto zone or an advanced auto parts should scan it for free if it does.

 

[volkstroker]

UPDATE!

You are exactly right. Rod bearing. I was driving this morning and it started and suddenly got a LOT WORSE, and now it does it all the time and is so loud i can now distinguish it's a hard engine knock. It's definitely undriveable now. Damn.

SO I guess all that's left now is to figure out if I should get the bearings replaced or if it would be more worth my time to just buy a good engine and swap it out. I have a background in aircooled VWs so I don't know the first thing about these engines, so I'll have to have a shop do it.

Any clue how much a typical midrange shop would charge to replace rod bearings? Do you have to pull the engine to do it? I can buy a rebuilt/good used engine for like $1000 from a few places, and a local shop will put it in for $600-$800. If it's like $400 to replace the bearings i'll do that, but if it's going to cost me a grand I may as well just swap engines.

 

[Shake_Zulla]

Any clue how much a typical midrange shop would charge to replace rod bearings? Do you have to pull the engine to do it? I can buy a rebuilt/good used engine for like $1000 from a few places, and a local shop will put it in for $600-$800. If it's like $400 to replace the bearings i'll do that, but if it's going to cost me a grand I may as well just swap engines.

Well this kinda depends on what you want. Is it your daily driver? Are you going to do any mods to your car? Are you going to turbo it? If you need the quick fix just have the local shops shoot you some quotes to replace the bearings. If you want a new motor would you consider installing it yourself? Prices will change from shop to shop you might get a sweat deal with the bad economy so it's hard to give you a better idea how much replacing the bearings will cost than you just calling the shop yourself.

 

[96 420a-t]

In my experience if you have a loud rod knock you might not be able to throw new bearings init
It might be necessary toreplace the crank. Only way to really tell is a full teardown and take a micrometer to the journals. But at that point you are looking at a rebuild. Ifyou can do the motor yourself you can save a lot of money s

 

[Fotowntalon]

Sorry i missed the update or would have replied sooner.

First off don't pay someone to replace the rod bearings, its super easy.
Drain the oil
drop the oil pan
take off the connecting rod bolts
replace the bearings
Well enough of the good news, time for the bad news...
SOMETIMES you can get away with just replacing the rod bearings, I've heard stories of it lasting for up to 5k miles. BUT chances are, especially if it got much louder, that crank is to worn down for this 'duct tape fix'. What this means is you will need a new crank, which basically means you need your engine torn apart to get to, which leaves you with 2 viable options. 1) engine swap 2) engine rebuild.

As shake zulla said, which option I would go for would depend on my goals/plans. If you plan a rebuild in the future, for either changing compression or forged pistons for turbo and etc. might as well just rebuild now. If you just want a DD with no to mild mods, then I'd just swap the engine. Either way, if you can avoid shops, you pay WAY to much in labor, search around for car friends or relatives, even if you dump 100-200 to have someone help you, will still be a hell of a lot cheaper than a shop.

 

[Shake_Zulla]

Sorry i missed the update or would have replied sooner.

First off don't pay someone to replace the rod bearings, its super easy.
Drain the oil
drop the oil pan
take off the connecting rod bolts
replace the bearings
Well enough of the good news, time for the bad news...
SOMETIMES you can get away with just replacing the rod bearings, I've heard stories of it lasting for up to 5k miles. BUT chances are, especially if it got much louder, that crank is to worn down for this 'duct tape fix'. What this means is you will need a new crank, which basically means you need your engine torn apart to get to, which leaves you with 2 viable options. 1) engine swap 2) engine rebuild.

As shake zulla said, which option I would go for would depend on my goals/plans. If you plan a rebuild in the future, for either changing compression or forged pistons for turbo and etc. might as well just rebuild now. If you just want a DD with no to mild mods, then I'd just swap the engine. Either way, if you can avoid shops, you pay WAY to much in labor, search around for car friends or relatives, even if you dump 100-200 to have someone help you, will still be a hell of a lot cheaper than a shop.

+1

I had a problem like this with my first 2g and that "knocking" could be the piston too. My head gasket went and it blew antifreeze into the oil, spun all the bearings and cracked then blew the piston into the head all within a couple miles. So not knowing your circumstances here are your best options.

Option 1: Rebuild your block now. Tear it out and build it for your project goals. Do the work yourself minus the machining and have a built motor when your done. Be prepared to have to buy pistons, rings, seals, crank bearings and a crankshaft as these may be damaged. The pros to this are you could save money. Cons are it will take a lot of time.

Option 2: Buy the new motor and install it yourself. I was 19 when I blew up my 420a and I knew nothing about motors. Having to go through the whole engine and doing all the work myself I learned a ton about the 420a and there isn't a project now that I'm afraid of. Buy a chilton's guide, take a ton of pics, bag all your bolts and lable them and buy some beer. Pros are you will have a new motor and it can be done quickly (probably a couple days). Cons are it will cost more.

Either way the knowledge you gain by doing it yourself is worth something! Next time things go wrong you will be in a better position to fix it yourself saving more money.

 

[volkstroker]

Well, Due to my current circumstances and lack of the right tools, I decided to just pay someone to do it for me. I thought about a rebuild but it was actually cheaper to just replace, I found a guy in KC (3 hours away) who gave me a rebuilt engine and installed it for $1300 altogether.

It runs perfect, except yesterday one of the heater core hoses blew and the engine overheated. The hoses are from the old engine and I guess they are getting weak. It was running ok when I shut it down, I'm just hoping that I didn't #### up a freshly rebuilt engine. Bad luck I guess.

I think next paycheck I'm just going to buy new hoses for EVERYTHING.

ANYHOW, thanks guys for the advice and help! I thought about replacing it myself, but I don't have quite all the tools and it's winter and freezing and I needed the car quickly, and the guy I was talking about had it replaced in 2 days for $300 labor... But I do plan on doing most of the work from here on out on the car to learn about it. I'll be doing a lot of work to it this summer when it's not sub-zero.