K-series swaps?

[sonicc]

And might I remind you that you just joined today and any other forum would probably not even allow you to come into their group with the attitude that is being had and post without first reviewing and approving your posts. This is the very best DSM forum there is but it isnt Honda related at all.
Marty

Marty,

I'm a member on the forum you linked, as well as Lexus forums, VW/Audi forums, Mustang forums, Honda forums, and this one. My attitude comes from the fact that some people are giving me their opinions when I'm asking for technical information and it gets old very quick having to explain and repeat the question.

And again, asking this question on an engine specific forum makes less sense than asking it here. I'm asking if anyone has information or threads of someone attempting or researching this.

 

[Canadian_CD9A]

That's a engine specific forum.


It can also save you a lot of trouble, money, and time to learn from other people's attempts. That's why internet is great. So you can get an idea before you start a project vs having a garage full of parts/cars and then realizing "shit...this doesn't work".
"Preliminary research"
And you're making a looooooooooooot of assumptions just because I want to use a Honda engine in DSM

Again, there is no reason why it won't work. Engine dimensions, axle centerlines and engine bay clearance are quite similar for all 4-cylinder FWD vehicles. Mounts are always going to need to be fabricated. At worst you'll have to do some frame rail clearance, which is not a major issue. People have put the behemoth 6G75 3.8L V6 into Dodge Avengers (which are similar in size and also take the DSM 420A) and into the 2G DSM itself. The 3.8 has the same orientation as the K, but they're much bigger. People have also put the Evo 8/9 engine in DSMs, same theory. You can put practically any engine into any car now, as long as the engine orientation remains the same.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Take it down a notch and let us know how difficult the swap is since it hasn't been documented yet.
I am also a member of a few other groups. The other forums would have an Admin clear your post before letting it go up.

 

[sonicc]

Mounts are always going to need to be fabricated. At worst you'll have to do some frame rail clearance, which is not a major issue.

Yeah I figure the mounts are going to have to be fabricated, but that shouldn't be a problem. Stuff like frame rail clearance, oil pan clearance, steering rack, etc is why I'm asking this question now. To see what the biggest challenges are before jumping both feet in. That's why I was hoping to find out if someone has attempted or researched it, or at least point me in the direction where I might find more info.

Like I said in OP, I have the drivetrain, ecu, and harness. I'm trying to figure what to put it into and I wouldn't mind having another Eclipse (just more unique now). Some other platforms I've considered: MR2 spyder (this is by far the easiest non-Honda one), FRS/BRZ, and RX8.

 

[streetraceboi]

Yeah I figure the mounts are going to have to be fabricated, but that shouldn't be a problem. Stuff like frame rail clearance, oil pan clearance, steering rack, etc is why I'm asking this question now. To see what the biggest challenges are before jumping both feet in. That's why I was hoping to find out if someone has attempted or researched it, or at least point me in the direction where I might find more info.

Like I said in OP, I have the drivetrain, ecu, and harness. I'm trying to figure what to put it into and I wouldn't mind having another Eclipse (just more unique now). Some other platforms I've considered: MR2 spyder (this is by far the easiest non-Honda one), FRS/BRZ, and RX8.

Im curious and stoked to see it possibly happen. Start a build thread and let er rip! It will give my Honda friend some excitement tooo

Grab an RS/GS shell. Don't ruin a GST

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I was going to have to ask what orientation the K motor sits in normally so I could suggest the best body to try it in.
@sonicc, which direction do they sit in their original platform? Transmission on the left or the right?

 

[sonicc]

Im curious and stoked to see it possibly happen. Start a build thread and let er rip! It will give my Honda friend some excitement tooo

I have a vision for how I want it to look (a tribute to or an inspiration taken from a certain movie and kinda built more realistically) and perform (limited track day duties). Just a matter of putting it all together in my head before I jump into it.

Grab an RS/GS shell. Don't ruin a GST

Yeah definitely wouldn't sacrifice a running GST/GSX for this project.

I was going to have to ask what orientation the K motor sits in normally so I could suggest the best body to try it in.
@sonicc, which direction do they sit in their original platform? Transmission on the left or the right?

Transmission on the left.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Which gen of eclipse (I know you mentioned a certain movie). I assume a 2g. In orginal form the GS had it situated the other way but like you said, you are BUILDING it so it can sit anyway you want it.
Props for the ingenuity! I would suggest a Qualfi or what ever dif that will use both front tires, we all know how a Honda will blow them off (well I do). Even one of our DSMs (Spyder) was FWD and just tearing that one tire up. My son put a good dif in it and it hooked a hell of alot better (but then liked to skate around, and just on a 16g turbo 4g63). Ran 12.5s in that cute little convertible and it was an auto car, which would make your FankenHonda easier to put together. Does the Honda platform have a good auto unit that could be ran and is durable?

 

[sonicc]

Which gen of eclipse (I know you mentioned a certain movie). I assume a 2g. In orginal form the GS had it situated the other way but like you said, you are BUILDING it so it can sit anyway you want it.
Props for the ingenuity! I would suggest a Qualfi or what ever dif that will use both front tires, we all know how a Honda will blow them off (well I do). Even one of our DSMs (Spyder) was FWD and just tearing that one tire up. My son put a good dif in it and it hooked a hell of alot better (but then liked to skate around, and just on a 16g turbo 4g63). Ran 12.5s in that cute little convertible and it was an auto car, which would make your FankenHonda easier to put together. Does the Honda platform have a good auto unit that could be ran and is durable?

2G, preferably 98-99. It would be built more for road course duties vs outright speed/power, but could see boost down the road. LSD is definitely a must. Popular option is to use a transmission from 06-09 civic Si which came with LSD. It would be a 6 speed manual, which is not the strongest transmission but "adequate"

 

[Mech Addict]

Ok, so Honda and Mitsubishi both have excellent engineering. I think the answer here is that nobody seems to have special knowledge of a K swap, so if you couldn’t find it searching old posts, then you can be a trailblazer. Some cars are associated and prized For their original engines (911, Hemi ‘cuda, and yes dsm turbos), and some aren’t , even if the car is cool ( looking at you-VW Karman Ghia). I agree that the LS swap is not too far from the twin-motor 4g63t project, novel but unnecessary. I think a better Honda swap would be a few CBR1000 motors. That would be worth bragging about.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I have to be in agreement here. It just hasn't been done yet so we all could get more informed about it.
What about swappin that setup into a Civic tho? Those dam things are LIGHT. Not hacking the idea of a Eclipse because of its its background and screen time but I guess I am the drag race guy and you want to road race which is cool but I dont have any tracks to play on. Sigh

 

[Ludachris]

To be honest, at some point there was a first for LS swap in anything, or VQ swap in something, or K swap in a MR2, K swap in RX8, K swap in VW, etc, etc.
So the question is why hasn't there been a K swap in DSM yet?

If you've ever hung out in GM or Ford circles, you'd have an understanding of why there hasn't been much interest for a K swap in a DSM - it'd be like swapping an LS into a Mustang or a Coyote into a Camaro. There's a certain rivalry there. The Mitsubishi crowd can be an obscure bunch and the 4G63 is largely seen as the anti-Honda powerplant, widely thought to be underappreciated in the automotive world by this group. Maybe it doesn't have the cult following of the Mazda rotaries, but a Honda motor in a DSM would likely draw the same reaction as the LS swap in an RX7. The fact that it would not be an easy swap, combined with the typical anti-Honda sentiment in this community makes other swap options much more desirable - though again, to many, the 4G63 is almost the whole point of these cars.

I think the Evo 4G63 swap into a 420A donor DSM will likely start gaining more steam as time goes on and DSM 4G63 engines and parts become more difficult to source. Hell, maybe even the 4B11 as time goes on. I doubt the Honda motors will become popular swaps in this platform.

Not that this should deter you if you plan to take on that swap. If you do it, be sure to document it.

 

[AWD-Tony]

I'm asking for information from folks that have tried something else. I'm doing preliminary research to see what the technical challenges are and going to base my decision on that.

I don’t think anyone has done this swap. The challenges you’ll face is the same challenges everyone else faces when putting engine X into chassis Y.

 

[SpankyStokes]

Why not just awd swap a k series Honda/Acura? People use the crv drivetrain. Seems easier and cheaper.

 

[Tyeler18]

As mentioned the reason it hasn't been documented is because its not worth the cost. I own *reliable* AWD DSM's that I've picked up for less than the cost of a K-series alone. I have a garage full of 4g63's and parts that cost less than the K swap alone. If cost is part of the issue in buying a 4g powered DSM you're in over your head for a swap because the fabrication cost to swap an engine from another manufacturer in is going to far outweigh what it costs to just buy the 4g powered car. I have 2 LS swapped vehicles and I have 4g swapped non-mitsu cars. The drivetrain cost is the cheapest part of the swap. DSM owners are cheap, they're not going to buy a $1200 K-swap and then spend $4k to fab and swap it into their car when you can pick up a running 4g long block for sub $800 and just bolt it in.

As far as reliability goes that's all on the owner. I currently own 5 4g swapped dailys that are all modified well beyond stock. All of them have 40k+ miles over the course of 5-12 years of use by me on them. I've never been stranded by one or had to rely on a tow to get me home. My galant has 212K on the stock long block and has an FP red bolted to it the past 5 years and nearly 20k miles. If reliability is an issue for you, you don't want a swap car.

By all means though lets see a K powered 420a car. That would be worthwhile.

 

[Ludachris]

I have 2 LS swapped vehicles and I have 4g swapped non-mitsu cars.

Vehicle profiles for the 4g-swapped non-Mitsu cars here or we don't believe it.

 

[Tyeler18]

Vehicle profiles for the 4g-swapped non-Mitsu cars here or we don't believe it.

Once I get my picture compiled I'll post them. I try to keep all my builds to their matching forums. My montero build has kind of derailed my galant build thread on the galant forum and I didn't intend for that to happen.

 

[Ludachris]

Once I get my picture compiled I'll post them. I try to keep all my builds to their matching forums. My montero build has kind of derailed my galant build thread on the galant forum and I didn't intend for that to happen.

Looking forward to checking out the Montero swap. Man, I thought about starting a Montero forum a while back. Looks like the only one out there left is dead.

 

[TheRippedNerd]

im not here to step on any toes, but the only reason why honda's are "fast" is they weigh nothing, so of course by putting in a little more power (k swap) makes them "faster" BUT putting a k20 that makes less power than 4g63t will only make that DSM slower because its a heavier car, its almost like a down grade in a way. this is all stuff i know you guy already know, but with that little bit of common head knowledge: Lightweight car (honda) + lightweight low power motor (k series) = fast honda, Heavier car (DSM) + Lightweight low power motor (k series)= slow DSM. sure it MAY be lighter but with 80+hp less, your going to be slower. now obviously you can modify the k20 to make it faster, but parts for dsm's seem alot cheaper and ready available.

again this is your build, and personally id love to see it and ill watch/follow the whole thing and if im wrong, im wrong and ill take the L and congratulate you on a dope swap so, that being said, good luck my friend and i hope im proven wrong because i really wanna see this swap!

 

[Stapl3]

Looking forward to checking out the Montero swap. Man, I thought about starting a Montero forum a while back. Looks like the only one out there left is dead.

My '01 Montero Limited is the greatest vehicle I've ever owned or driven for that matter. Love that thing. There's a small group of people on the galantvr4 forum with them and they have a thread on there. For forums I just google what I want and end up on an offroad forum or a 'foreign' forum for the Pajero. A forum on here for them would be nice, but it would probably have little activity. These SUVs don't seem very common.

 

[Ludachris]

im not here to step on any toes, but the only reason why honda's are "fast" is they weigh nothing, so of course by putting in a little more power (k swap) makes them "faster" BUT putting a k20 that makes less power than 4g63t will only make that DSM slower because its a heavier car, its almost like a down grade in a way. this is all stuff i know you guy already know, but with that little bit of common head knowledge: Lightweight car (honda) + lightweight low power motor (k series) = fast honda, Heavier car (DSM) + Lightweight low power motor (k series)= slow DSM. sure it MAY be lighter but with 80+hp less, your going to be slower. now obviously you can modify the k20 to make it faster, but parts for dsm's seem alot cheaper and ready available.

again this is your build, and personally id love to see it and ill watch/follow the whole thing and if im wrong, im wrong and ill take the L and congratulate you on a dope swap so, that being said, good luck my friend and i hope im proven wrong because i really wanna see this swap!

That's very true, but it also depends on whether or not the 4G63 he's taking out actually DID make more horsepower than the K20 he's putting in. We know the potential of the 4G63, but if his isn't in great shape, or wasn't making bigger power, it wouldn't necessarily be a step down. With that said, I'd still prefer to see the swap take place on a 420A donor chassis, just to preserve the number of 4G63 chassis out there. Plenty of 420A DSMs out there to hack up.

 

[TheRippedNerd]

That's very true, but it also depends on whether or not the 4G63 he's taking out actually DID make more horsepower than the K20 he's putting in. We know the potential of the 4G63, but if his isn't in great shape, or wasn't making bigger power, it wouldn't necessarily be a step down. With that said, I'd still prefer to see the swap take place on a 420A donor chassis, just to preserve the number of 4G63 chassis out there. Plenty of 420A DSMs out there to hack up.

I can't argue this logic your right, makes sense. I know those light weight k Motors can be straight monsters, I've seen guys like swap a FD rx7 and they murder

 

[dustyboner]

im not here to step on any toes, but the only reason why honda's are "fast" is they weigh nothing, so of course by putting in a little more power (k swap) makes them "faster" BUT putting a k20 that makes less power than 4g63t will only make that DSM slower because its a heavier car, its almost like a down grade in a way. this is all stuff i know you guy already know, but with that little bit of common head knowledge: Lightweight car (honda) + lightweight low power motor (k series) = fast honda, Heavier car (DSM) + Lightweight low power motor (k series)= slow DSM. sure it MAY be lighter but with 80+hp less, your going to be slower. now obviously you can modify the k20 to make it faster, but parts for dsm's seem alot cheaper and ready available.

if your gonna swap a k-series into anything, it should be a k-series with a true Vtec head. So the k20a2, k20z1, k24a2 or type R k20a.
a k20a2 is rated at around 200hp, k20z1 = 210hp and the k24a2 is like 195-200hp.
a stock k24a2 can handle just as much if not more hp than a stock 2g 4g63. The transmission is another story though.

That's very true, but it also depends on whether or not the 4G63 he's taking out actually DID make more horsepower than the K20 he's putting in. We know the potential of the 4G63, but if his isn't in great shape, or wasn't making bigger power, it wouldn't necessarily be a step down. With that said, I'd still prefer to see the swap take place on a 420A donor chassis, just to preserve the number of 4G63 chassis out there. Plenty of 420A DSMs out there to hack up.

my thoughts exactly. plus the mount configuration on a k motor is alot closer to a 420a than a 4g.

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it would be a total bee-otch to get the k series subframe to bolt up. the lower control arm mounting point on a dsm doesn't look like it would be usable with the K subframe attached. Maybe you could get a k series bolted in without the k subframe but i think you would have to ditch the crossmember for clearance so you wouldn't have the front mount point anymore.

or take off the oem front subframe and go with a tubular (like THIS), then add attachment points to bolt up the k subframe.
f*** i don't know.

I would start by finding a k subframe and a trash k20a3 to use for mock up.
if your gonna go with a k24 the block is 19mm taller so you would need to put a spacer between the head and block on the mockup a3.

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here are a bunch of pictures showing the k series mounts and subframe:

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and here are a couple that show the 420a ones:

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[Tyeler18]

Looking forward to checking out the Montero swap. Man, I thought about starting a Montero forum a while back. Looks like the only one out there left is dead.

Yea adventure driven design is about the only true montero forum and it hasn't had much activity. The group of owners is small though and a lot of info has been spread across expedition portal and a couple other off road oriented sites.

I have a build thread on ADD here:

Frankenstein- montero to monstero. LS swap

Frankenstein- montero to monstero. LS swap

forum.adventuredrivendesign.com

I can't argue this logic your right, makes sense. I know those light weight k Motors can be straight monsters, I've seen guys like swap a FD rx7 and they murder

N/A they are capable of quite a bit of power. 250-300whp on a K20 isn't too hard (although expensive). But they are torqueless wonders. Boosted they hold fair power too. I'm not a honda guy but a K swap N/T car would be better than a 420a and way more reliable too.

 

[Bud92gsx]

Ls swap a dsm, ok kool.
Honda swap a dsm, why isnt this guy banned yet?