Is 400awhp possible without aftermarket internals?

[tsi1991awd]

As the title says....or are cams, rods and pistons a must? Mods include (and will include within the next month) GT Concepts Evo3 GT turbo, 750cc injectors, AFPR, 255HP Walbro, 2g MAF, Supra SMIC, dejon upper/lower piping, Dejon intake, evo 3 exhaust manifold, PR O2 dump, 3" open DP, ECMLink

 

[JayRolla]

I know, but you also have lower boost creeping issues as is. MY evo3 16g blew open the stock unported flapper/hole at 28psi And bleed down to 23psi. Must be the air up there .

If you can hold the flapper shut on an evo3 16g, you can do it on an internal hx35. Same thing has to be done, same costs involved, same time.

No not at all costs the same.

Evo 3 16g - $569.00 - Will bolt up with no modification and ready to go.

Holset HX35 - $569.00 for used turbo, housing, oil lines (estimate)
Actuator- $125.00
Internal gate - $50.00

Ohh and with FREE PORTING YOU WONT HAVE BOOST CREEP WITH A 16G.

Thats still over the price of a 16g and you still have crappy boost control. Now add on o2 housing and external gate you get very expensive compared to a 16g. Its still more to run the holset and you still get crappy boost control. Not to mention you have a used holset turbo on your car that may fail since no one seems to oil these things correctly and such a huge debate on it.

 

[toofast82]

No not at all costs the same.

Not to mention you have a used holset turbo on your car that may fail since no one seems to oil these things correctly and such a huge debate on it.

When I ran the Holset Hx35 a few years back, I had no b/shafts and I oiled it from the head unrestricted, it lasted about 3k miles and was a brand new chra. That's what worries me about going back to the holset. The mhi oiling is a no brainer!
Granted there are oil pressure differences, but the oil line on my friends 96Ram is only about 10-12" long and is about the size of our stock fuel line. It comes from their filter housing. Typical OP is between 35-50psi. The line I used, i was under the impression it was 4an, and this line would appear to be one size larger.

 

[pboglio]

When I ran the Holset Hx35 a few years back, I had no b/shafts and I oiled it from the head unrestricted, it lasted about 3k miles and was a brand new chra. That's what worries me about going back to the holset. The mhi oiling is a no brainer!
Granted there are oil pressure differences, but the oil line on my friends 96Ram is only about 10-12" long and is about the size of our stock fuel line. It comes from their filter housing. Typical OP is between 35-50psi. The line I used, i was under the impression it was 4an, and this line would appear to be one size larger.

How was the HX35 for spool compared to say a 16g?

 

[toofast82]

How was the HX35 for spool compared to say a 16g?

I had it running on my car about Feb 06'. It was an 8.5:1 stock cam/im car. I never got really too great of a tune because I was stupid and didn't have a wideband
I had the internal housing, I kept having an issue with the flapper not closing all the way and sticking open. It was the housing, not the actuator. I then opted to upgrade to the "new" SS housing, which didn't do it as bad, but still sometimes.
From a Stutterbox launch, it was very good obviously because I was building some boost off the line
After that blew, I ran an 18g, which from a "roll" would definitely spool quicker and seemed to have better midrange at the expense of a little topend.
I was running about 22psi with some boost dropoff uptop on both turbos.

I say for me, I'm currently looking to hit a high 11sec 1/4 this year. That's very achievable with my current b16g. I have 264/272 cams and smim i'm adding in the next few weeks. I also have some 1150cc injectors, afpr and larger fuel pump to run E85. So my goals are well within reality in my opinion.
If i'm choosing to have more lag in my DD than an Mhi offers (16g,18g,20g), Then i'm just skipping right over the Hx35 and going for the hx40. I bought a hx40 6blade used that i'll probably postpone until next year.
I think if you're running either the hx35 or 40, you should be running at least 25psi+ or its just not worth it

 

[pboglio]

Hmm, that's pretty interesting. So the HX35 probably makes more sense with an external wastegate at that point. I've seen an HX35 with the BEP housing for $975 for what appears to be a brand new unit. That is not bad, toss in $575 for an external gate & 02 housing and it compares well against something like an FP3052 for instance which easily goes for over $2200 with turbo, wastegate, etc..

I'll be holding off on the HX35 for a while. Just got my Kelford 272's in, so hopefully I can go after 460 w.h.p. which is my goal on the EVO3 16g and high 10's with a little weight reduction. This is why I read this thread and I'm like, "A 16g can do 400 w.h.p., whats the big deal?"

I thought about the 18g or 20g and for the modest gains over an EVO3 16g, it doesn't make much sense for my situation. I'd be willing to try the HX35 with a BEP housing if it spooled as fast or faster than a GT3076, but it would have to be new or rebuilt & refurbished.

 

[JayRolla]

Hmm, that's pretty interesting. So the HX35 probably makes more sense with an external wastegate at that point. I've seen an HX35 with the BEP housing for $975 for what appears to be a brand new unit. That is not bad, toss in $575 for an external gate & 02 housing and it compares well against something like an FP3052 for instance which easily goes for over $2200 with turbo, wastegate, etc..

I'll be holding off on the HX35 for a while. Just got my Kelford 272's in, so hopefully I can go after 460 w.h.p. which is my goal on the EVO3 16g and high 10's with a little weight reduction. This is why I read this thread and I'm like, "A 16g can do 400 w.h.p., whats the big deal?"

I thought about the 18g or 20g and for the modest gains over an EVO3 16g, it doesn't make much sense for my situation. I'd be willing to try the HX35 with a BEP housing if it spooled as fast or faster than a GT3076, but it would have to be new or rebuilt & refurbished.

Hopefully that 460whp goal is on a dyno jet. Also what you using to run high boost on your 16g. Meth, race gas, e85?

The hx35 should almost out spool any turbo that flows the same. Looking at data logs they seem to outspool almost anything that compares.

I dont like them because they dont flow that much. I know someone that had the 6/12 blade and it made 350whp on pump gas and thats all she could do. Ive seen e85 dynos showing 400+whp but nothing over 500 which is why I dont like. Its a glorified 50 trim and dont push enough air.

 

[toofast82]

So the HX35 probably makes more sense with an external wastegate at that point. it compares well against something like an FP3052 for instance which easily goes for over $2200 with turbo, wastegate, etc..

I thought about the 18g or 20g and for the modest gains over an EVO3 16g, it doesn't make much sense for my situation. I'd be willing to try the HX35 with a BEP housing if it spooled as fast or faster than a GT3076, but it would have to be new or rebuilt & refurbished.

The hx35 7blade is a nice piece and for the money to get it setup, it is definitely comparable to the FP3052 in bolt-on fashion. It spools good for a turbo it's size for sure and can work into the 40psi range
After going external when I had a 14b, I will never go back to an internal again. period!
Just go external and be done with it if you run holset.
Im sure you're setup would f vckin fly with an hx35 running 30psi, because you're pulling great numbers out of the 16g. It would be nice to see how the two turbos compare on your setup.
The 18g wouldn't be worth much to you, but you may be able to pick up some topend with the 20g since you run high boost. If you did it, you should go tdo6h or at least a clipped 05h turbine.
Don't be worried about the used holset, if its solid when you get it, and you oil it properly, it will last a long time.
I paid $200 for my hx40 6blade with less shaft play than my 16g Now i'm just worried about how to keep it that way when I use it

 

[joshs1074]

i have a sleeper laser with 400 hp with big 16g and stock internals. you have to have very good tuning though

 

[toofast82]

I dont like them because they dont flow that much. I know someone that had the 6/12 blade and it made 350whp on pump gas and thats all she could do.

Do you mean 8blade hx35? there is no 6blade, hx40 does though.

 

[pboglio]

JayRolla,

The goal is 460 w.h.p. on a Dynojet. For now I'd be running VP Import most likely as the aggressive cams are going to make the motor knock happy. E85 would make it easier but that'll come later on.

toofast82,

Yeah, I definitely would try the HX35 on an external gate in the future. I'm concerned about having to dent the water pipe though on my 2g. Right now my transmission just can't handle the torque output of the EVO3 16g. So I'm sort of being forced to go bigger on the turbo just to save the transmission while still increasing the topend power.

If someone can point me towards a bunch of HX35 dsmlink datalogs I'd appreciate it.

 

[toofast82]

toofast82,

I'm concerned about having to dent the water pipe though on my 2g.

It wasn't much of a dent for me in the 1g. Shouldn't be a big deal on the 2g

 

[JayRolla]

Do you mean 8blade hx35? there is no 6blade, hx40 does though.

I actually meant the 7 blade. What ever one flows the most.

 

[dustinmp3]

i am not sure about this and i have a question
i am just getting back into the dsm's again and i am wanting to hit 11 secs not flat but mids by summer and i am stock now any help would be great.
pm with reply's thanks
HOPE YOU HIT YOUR GOAL

 

[JayRolla]

i am not sure about this and i have a question
i am just getting back into the dsm's again and i am wanting to hit 11 secs not flat but mids by summer and i am stock now any help would be great.
pm with reply's thanks
HOPE YOU HIT YOUR GOAL

You should start your own thread.

 

[johnboy1065]

add cams and a 20g and I'd say your there

 

[dsm-onster]

No not at all costs the same.

Evo 3 16g - $569.00 - Will bolt up with no modification and ready to go.

Holset HX35 - $569.00 for used turbo, housing, oil lines (estimate)
Actuator- $125.00
Internal gate - $50.00

Ohh and with FREE PORTING YOU WONT HAVE BOOST CREEP WITH A 16G.

Thats still over the price of a 16g and you still have crappy boost control. Now add on o2 housing and external gate you get very expensive compared to a 16g. Its still more to run the holset and you still get crappy boost control. Not to mention you have a used holset turbo on your car that may fail since no one seems to oil these things correctly and such a huge debate on it.

A 16g will not bolton to a 2g car with out modification. So all those guys are definately interested in other turbos

-- I paid $200 for my big h1c (54mm). I've seen the the 54mm sell for less. It flows as much as a 50-trim compressor which flows the same as a 20g compressor. The hx35 8blade which flows a little more can be had for about $100 more. The turbine housing is $250. You can fab up oil lines for under $30 easily.

Little tip: my big h1c seams to spool a little faster than the hx35 frame. It has a a wheel that will fit in the hx35 bolton housing, but the blades are a bit thinner for less weight. It has some aerodynamic differences that cause it to flow slightly less but spool slightly faster. Still enough flow to completely max out a 49lb/min compressor using the bolton housing.​

-- The actuator from your mhi turbo or t25 is included under your hood. No need to add that cost. No boost creep. And whatever you use to keep the MHI 16g from blowing it's stock flapper open when you max it out, you can do the same with the hx35. Of course you wont need to push the hx35 turbine pressure ratios that will blow the flapper open to outflow a typical 16g setup.

-- The evo3 16g needs the larger evo3 02 housing. Or hella porting on the stock 1g or 2g o2 housing. The BEP turbine housing needs the larger evo3 02 housing. Or hella porting on the stock 1g or 2g o2 housing.

-- There is ZERO debate on how to oil. It's been solved. Feed from the head if you have no bshafts and no ported oil relief valve. No failures. Feed from the OFH with a .065" or .078" restrictor if you have B-shafts or a ported oil relief valve that brings pressure down to stock. No failures. We already know the exact requirements of the holset turbo per the manufacturer and we know what our motors do. These holsets even stand up just fine with the drain line improperly sized (the manual calls for more diameter than ANY body ever runs). The feed location has to be strictly addressed. I've been telling guys the above for years. The debate is that some don't follow the requirements

For a 1g guy, cost is damn near the same for an evo3 16g or an hx35 bolted on, even the high flow 7blade. If you get an 54mm h1c, then you're spending less with about the difference in flow over an evo3 16g as a td06 20g, which is very big. Jay, you could have had the bolton hx35 already on your car instead of your 16g, that you're wearing out for under $50 more. You would have paid less if you bought a 54mm h1c. You'd be seeing more than 36lb/min at your 30+ psi spikes at the track in your thin air. And have a turbo that likes high boost better than a 16g for that thinner air. You'd be thinking about the limit of your block instead of the limit of your turbo right now.

For a 2g guy, you have an oil feed line from the OFH already; you just need an adapter and restrictor if you're runnign b-shafts or ported oil relief valve. No need to buy water lines either, which you should do with an mhi 16g swap to a 2g car.

 

[pboglio]

I've been reviewing spoolup logs of the Holset hx35, MHI 20g/td06, Garrett 3071, , FP3052, FP3150, 50 trim, Borg Warner S256. All the popular 47-52 lb/min turbos more or less with the capability of cracking the 400 w.h.p. with enough boost. I basically compared the rpms where each turbo made 200, 250, 300, 350 ft-lbs of wheel torque. The TD06 20g hands down out-spooled and out-torqued all the turbo's mentioned in the 3000-4000 rpm band.

If I had to make a decision on a comfortable 400 w.h.p. turbo for myself, which I am currently doing, it would be the 20g on a TD06 wheel or maybe the 6sl2 wheel. My criteria are outstanding midrange torque, good boost response, at least the outside possibility of hitting 50 lb/min, reasonable install cost, & inexpensive rebuild cost.

The EVO3 16g is already currently crushing the 400 w.h.p. on a regular basis. I figure the 20g could crack the 400 w.h.p. barrier while not having to overspeed the compressor too much and allowing the turbine section to breath a bit better. I already figure the 20g to be good for more than 450 w.h.p. without crazy effort and possibly 500 w.h.p. at the outside limit.

 

[dsm-onster]

Which hx35 logs are YOU looking at ? The hx35 spools faster than the td06 20g. I have comparison logs of my big h1c with the SMALL 16g floating around here. Spool was about the same; but mainly, the flow was higher at lower boost and EARLIER in rpms vs. a 16g turbo

Here's another bolton hx35 with 300ftlb of torque from 4200rpms to 8.2K. 400ftlbs of torque from 5000rpms to 6.5K. 500whp. Dropped little to none in hp up to 8K. 2.0L at 25psi. Click.

The td06 20g is still a fine choice, though, if they didn't cost so much.

 

[pboglio]

The Borg Warner S256 log nearly matches the 20g log in terms of airflow and torque pretty much starting from 3000 rpm on up, but the S256 is showing 20 psi by 3500 rpms vs. 4000 rpms for the TD06 20g. The spool up of that turbo is insane, but the torque is about equal to the slower spooling 20g.

Both those turbos were dialed in pretty good. I'd need a better HX35 log to compare, say a 2000 rpm to 4500 rpm 3rd gear WOT pull.

 

[dsm-onster]

That's an actual dyno pull for the bolton hx35; no guessing what the torque curve is from logs, actually what happens at the wheels. So I'm not sure what you're after.

From my memory of what I saw, every link log on the link forums shows the hx35 at or over 40lb/min even as low as 20psi . Here's one that comes to mind because I posted in it. He saw 49lb/min at 29psi with a 2.0 and stock manifolds with 272s. Click. This is the lower flowing h1c wheel that has no rounded turbine inducer blade tips and a narrower expansion of the blade width from turbine inducer to exducer. The Hx35 turbine wheel has revised turbine flow tech.

Considering I've already posted a dyno sheet and now this, providing more logs/reports/etc is a waste. Either you're going to believe it or not .

 

[pboglio]

Yeah, the HX35 log looked great.

Here's my EVO3 16g 3rd gear DSMlink datalog. The 70-90 mph time is 1.83 seconds. It shows a peak of 425 w.h.p. with two other peaks around 400 w.h.p. I went on to pick up another +20 h.p. beyond what this log shows with a couple stupid little mods about a couple days after.

With the lighter flywheel and shorter 3rd and 4th gears I just put in last week, and the 3" downpipe, Kelford 272 cams, & ECMLink speed density setup going in the next few months, I will make that last log look slow by comparison.

 

[dsm-onster]

Great stuff! You're really working it. Imagine what you could be doing with an hx35

 

[kmj 4g63t]

Trade your Evo III GT for a HX35 (w/ external wastegate), then add cams, and meth injection.

You'll probably break the turbine on that Evo III GT before you surpass the 300whp mark anyway.

I can vouch for that! Happend to me. You should definitely invest in 272 cams there perfect for what you want to accomplish. You will also need bigger injectors and a few more bolt ons. Good luck

 

[ian_maham]

Little late, but that was an awesome thread. Got a lot of insight!

 

[StreetTunedTSi]

All i have to say is take your time if its your dd you dont wanna rush or youll be out of a dd, i have a 95tsi awd and im aiming for 300-320 whp, and my set up is/ will be as follow

Stock head
MBC
Full 3in turbo back w/o cat.
Intake
FMIC
Evo3 Big16g
Evo3 Manifold
External o2 dump
FIC 650cc
255fp w/ AFPR
ARP Head Studs
AEM Wideband
30 0 30 Boost gauge
Oil Press gauge
DsmLink v2
Custom Intercooler sprayers(Windshield washer fluid)

And guys feel free to give me any advice you think will help me out with this goal..