im running rich and i cant find out why!

[EC17PSE]

So im fed up as i just got done with my timing belt fired it up and and re calibrated my wideband (lc-1) and at idle im ok 14.5-14.7 but when i cruise im at 12.5 sometimes a bit lower and WOT im about 9.8-10.3 and ive done 2 boost leak tests and found nothing, all the o2 sensors are just over 1 year old and the thermostat is about 1.5 years old and its had 3 coolant flushes in about 2 years, i thought it could be the CAS trigger cap thing inside the cover but ive been told its not that.

So what else can i look for or do to get this corrected as im getting bad milage and it was not like this before the change of the belts! Should i look at a rad cap or ingition wires? Would any of these cause issues of running rich???

Someone please give me a list of everything i should check and i will check them all again if i have to or read power or volts or anything to get it running how it was! Also im pretty sure its not the o2 as im not loosing any power and ive read thats a symptom,

PLEASE HELP ME i really dont know what to do or check next

 

[Spoolin92GSX]

It sounds like something is forcing you into open loop. Can you log coolant temps, o2 voltage, and throttle position?

 

[dsmspickdad]

As other members have stated check your Fuel Pressure Regulator. According to your stats you are running stock injectors and stock fuel pump? Is this correct? After initial cold start does your fuel a/f change as the car warms up?

 

[kimper007]

I checked my FPR and it checked out fine, I looked at my coolent temp sensor and it looks like the person who owned the car before me had tried to do some wire splicing and now the wires are hanging on bye only a couple of single wires so I am going to look at that and then check my dsm link and see what my coolant temp sensor is reading and work from there. Thanks for all the help

 

[fwbt]

fueltrimupdatepoints [ECMTuning - wiki]

Here's the criteria for getting even into closed loop mode for both 1 and 2g's

Kimper if that wire is dangling by a thread, a quick and easy fix is to put a female spade connector on the end of the wire and attach to the connectors, as they will match right up. The one with two wires going into the sensor is the sending unit for the ECU and the single wire one is for the gauge cluster. You need to be careful of which is which as two of the wires are striped the same. Yellow with a green strip IIRC.

 

[007jimmy]

Check for pre-o2 exhaust leaks like head to manifold, manifold to turbo and turbo to o2. Exhaust leaks do not usually show during a boost leak test. I found mine using a little bit of seafoam. But definetly check out those suspect wires.

 

[EC17PSE]

Right where to start on replys, i will check the FPR tomorrow, and as for the CTS its working fine the data logger is showing it heating up to 80 then the fan kicks on at 95 then cools again the voltage seems fine according to the online o2 sensor testing procedure on here, the exhaust has no leaks as ive checked. The gaskets are being orderd soon and i did kot hear anything doing the BLT's i done and my friend could not find any either and we checked with fluid and nothing came up but im changing the gaskets anyway

All my profile is upto date so everything is stock apart from the bits listed in my profile

And as to the wideband, it settles down to 14.4-14.8 when warm and cold starts are not an issue iys starts very well after 2-3 cranks which is normal

It sounds like something is forcing you into open loop. Can you log coolant temps, o2 voltage, and throttle position?

Yes i can log these i will get a cold start log tomorrow and then post it up, i will log front and rear o2 sensors and few other items aswell,

 

[BoredDSM]

I think there is a lot of confusion here. Is your car throwing a trouble code for a rich bank? If you are basing this off your wideband then you are chasing fairies. What were your A/F like before your timing belt?

 

[EC17PSE]

It did when i first took it for a test drive and it came up with a p0170 thats when i checked the voltages in the o2 sensors, i hope im not chasing nothing as the cruise should not be running that rich surely! If running 12.4 ish on a cruise is fine then yes i guess i am chasing something haha

Before the belt i was cruising at 14.5-14.8 NOW im cruising 12.5 give or take, im now loosing a considerable amout of MPG aswell!!! the exhaust leak got me thinking, if i did have a leak then it would male me run leaner if it was the turbo to o2 gasket, im so damn lost, i will keep driving till i get another code IF i get a code, i pulled all plugs and o2 sensors and nothing is black?

so it wont let me add a log but i got a cel light come on when test driving today for the log! it came up with p0170 b1 so im assuming fuel trim bank 1 so front o2 sensor?

the log is below and it seems as if my long term fuel trims are maxing out at 12.56% im basing this on what i have read from doing some research on here, how do my o2 sensor voltages look?

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ive also another question. my revs are still high but they lower when i cap off the lower nipple of the type s bov! so does this mean its leaking air into the system and then causing my readings to come up funny? example is like this

bov uncapped, afr reads at idle about 14.7-15.2, idles high about 1200-1350 rpm

bov capped, afr reads at idle 11.9-12.4, idles lower at around 1040 rpm

so what else can i do and check to narrow down the cause.

i also took the vacuum hose off the FPR and no fuel came out so thats all good

when starting the car cold the o2 sensor voltage reads @40oc ECT temp

front o2s11 0.000v when the rear sensor drops the front does something

rear o2s12 0.780v then it drops

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[BoredDSM]

Ok, I have never used the Innovate logging system before but from what I can see the data is indicating a lean condition. I will include a few steps to show confirm the information provided by your data logger before we can continue to figure the problem out.

If you can isolate it so you can only see the Voltage on the front o2 sensor Bank 1 Sensor 1. When watching it in live stream it should oscillate from .3 - .4 volts to .7 - .9. If it does then the front o2 sensor is most likely good. I then need you to create a true Lean condition. Easiest way is to disconnect your brake booster vacuum line. It might stall so cap it and slowly let air in and watch the data. You should see the voltage drop to .2 - .1 volts and hold steady until you close your finger over the vacuum line. It should then start to oscillate up and down again. After that create a rich condition so if you have some carb cleaner spray a steady stream into that same brake booster vacuum line and you should see voltage rising to .8 or .9 and hold steady as you keep spraying carb cleaner.

The long term fuel trim is at a positive 12% from what I can see indicating a lean condition. If it were a -12% that would indicate a rich condition because it is now pulling away 12% of fuel. Basically with the test above you are testing for o2 sensor response and ensuring it does not get stuck rich or lean at times. The other thing is if the o2 sensor reacts like I stated above see how the long term and short term fuel trim show up. If it goes negative then I know it can show positive and negative fuel trims and we can confirm that you are running lean and not rich.

 

[EC17PSE]

Thanos for that i will test this out when i get back from work tonight

Also does this mean that i have a leak somewhere? As ive found that my wires are arcing but i still cant find any leaks

 

[Spoolin92GSX]

Sounds to me like you found the problem: the infamous Greddy leak. As an initial check, you can cap that fitting good and tight, and pull the negative battery cable to reset your fuel trims. See how it drives then. After, or instead, you can pull the BOV and disassemble (just 6 Allen head bolts) to check the condition of the diaphragm. Be sure to hold the top as you loosen it though, the springs will launch it if you're not careful (ask me how I know.. ). Might be a little less tedious than pulling booster hoses and spraying Carb cleaner all over (no offense, just seems like a hassle to me).

 

[EC17PSE]

Cheers spoolin, i will check tonight aswell as im going to do another boost leak test from the intercooler incase im missing a leak somewhere. What am i looking for on the diaphram? Any pics what it should or should not look like? And does that mean i would he running lean as im so confused as my wide band reads rich not lean arrrrrrhhhhh i dont know what to do and check i wish i had dsmlink. And as ive said before when i cap the lower nipple of the bov it stops idling at 14.8 and idles at 12.3 and the revs drop by a few hundred sometimes

 

[Spoolin92GSX]

Cheers spoolin, i will check tonight aswell as im going to do another boost leak test from the intercooler incase im missing a leak somewhere. What am i looking for on the diaphram? Any pics what it should or should not look like? And does that mean i would he running lean as im so confused as my wide band reads rich not lean arrrrrrhhhhh i dont know what to do and check i wish i had dsmlink. And as ive said before when i cap the lower nipple of the bov it stops idling at 14.8 and idles at 12.3 and the revs drop by a few hundred sometimes

Right, more than likely what's happening is it's leaking at idle, allowing un-metered air into the system. The o2 picks this up as a lean condition and adds fuel to compensate. Then at cruise it doesn't leak (less vacuum) and since the long term fuel trim takes forever to adjust, it sticks rich and can't adjust for it. You should be able to tell pretty easily if the BOV is in good shape or not when you open it up, it should be a solid ring all the way around to seal against the inside of the body. If there are any tears, folds, worn spots, etc you can either order a replacement from Greddy (~$80 IIRC) or make your own from a bicycle inner tube. If it comes to that I'll find the link to the article on it.

 

[EC17PSE]

Right, more than likely what's happening is it's leaking at idle, allowing un-metered air into the system. The o2 picks this up as a lean condition and adds fuel to compensate. Then at cruise it doesn't leak (less vacuum) and since the long term fuel trim takes forever to adjust, it sticks rich and can't adjust for it. You should be able to tell pretty easily if the BOV is in good shape or not when you open it up, it should be a solid ring all the way around to seal against the inside of the body. If there are any tears, folds, worn spots, etc you can either order a replacement from Greddy (~$80 IIRC) or make your own from a bicycle inner tube. If it comes to that I'll find the link to the article on it.

Right i get it now i read so many things on what makes it run rich/lean i dont manage to take it all in on that logic behind it and what is for what haha, so in essence it is running rich but not rich enough to throw out the ecu but rich enough to see it on my wideband,

If it comes to it i will just buy the ngr bov as they have great reviews and ive even suggested them to some guys here in the UK

I will take the top off and check tonight and also i will do tue single spring mod that i came acrossin my searches aswell. Cheers again i will report back once all the checks are done tonight

 

[BoredDSM]

You cannot base your readings off the wideband for a trouble code. The wideband just tells YOU what the air fuel ratio is. The car has its own sensors telling it other wise and has the ecu compensate for it. The wideband is reading your air fuel ratio after its already been corrected by the ecu. Spray some brake clean into the nipple on the bov and see if rpms and fuel trims respond accordingly.

 

[EC17PSE]

You cannot base your readings off the wideband for a trouble code. The wideband just tells YOU what the air fuel ratio is. The car has its own sensors telling it other wise and has the ecu compensate for it. The wideband is reading your air fuel ratio after its already been corrected by the ecu. Spray some brake clean into the nipple on the bov and see if rpms and fuel trims respond accordingly.

So the wideband is just an eairly sign of problems i will spray it in there first before i do any other tests and if it does rise then i guess that my problem then, will report back once ive done the tests

right so ive done the tests!

the first was carb cleaner in the lower nipple and it wanted to stall and then did then i took off the cover of the bov and surprise surprise its split almost 95% around so time for a new NGR unit! plus it had already had the single spring mod done but the cap that sits on top of the spring it also missing! it was 2nd hand so i cant really complain i NEVER normally buy anything 2nd hand as i never know whats been done to it or how its been used!

then i tested the 02 sensor and unplugged the brake booster hose and first sprayed it into the hose but realised it was going nowhere haha so i sprayed it into the throttle body and it revved right up and the volts on the sensor was confusing at first as i had it on o2s11 but it only moved every now and then but i pulled up o2s12 and that was moving around but from the readings,

o2s11 went from 0.00 - 0.320 - 0.059 - 0.039 - and kept going from 0.059 to 0.039 to 0.019 then after that the o2s11 went to 0.000 and nothing else untill i reved it again! is that normal and shows its working fine

o2s12 went 0.999 then dropped to 700 then hovering around 0.059 then shot up to 0.979 when it was coming to the end of me spraying stuff in.

short term fuel trim was around 17.23%
and long tern still holds at 12.56%

so all in all i have a few things to do and i hope it fixes them, im going to over haul the throttle body with all new seals and possible fiav bypass plate, new ignition wires taylor spiro 8.0 mm and a new ngr bov and hope it solves all my problems!

sorry i cant explain this any better i am trying so damn hard to learn the logging and reading the data from it

and once again thanks for all the help

Bobby

 

[BoredDSM]

So the wideband is just an eairly sign of problems i will spray it in there first before i do any other tests and if it does rise then i guess that my problem then, will report back once ive done the tests

right so ive done the tests!

the first was carb cleaner in the lower nipple and it wanted to stall and then did then i took off the cover of the bov and surprise surprise its split almost 95% around so time for a new NGR unit! plus it had already had the single spring mod done but the cap that sits on top of the spring it also missing! it was 2nd hand so i cant really complain i NEVER normally buy anything 2nd hand as i never know whats been done to it or how its been used!

then i tested the 02 sensor and unplugged the brake booster hose and first sprayed it into the hose but realised it was going nowhere haha so i sprayed it into the throttle body and it revved right up and the volts on the sensor was confusing at first as i had it on o2s11 but it only moved every now and then but i pulled up o2s12 and that was moving around but from the readings,

o2s11 went from 0.00 - 0.320 - 0.059 - 0.039 - and kept going from 0.059 to 0.039 to 0.019 then after that the o2s11 went to 0.000 and nothing else untill i reved it again! is that normal and shows its working fine

o2s12 went 0.999 then dropped to 700 then hovering around 0.059 then shot up to 0.979 when it was coming to the end of me spraying stuff in.

short term fuel trim was around 17.23%
and long tern still holds at 12.56%

so all in all i have a few things to do and i hope it fixes them, im going to over haul the throttle body with all new seals and possible fiav bypass plate, new ignition wires taylor spiro 8.0 mm and a new ngr bov and hope it solves all my problems!

sorry i cant explain this any better i am trying so damn hard to learn the logging and reading the data from it

and once again thanks for all the help

Bobby

Yep, bank 1 sensor 1 definitely indicates a very lean condition and was very hard for you to richen it back up. But you did find your problem which was the BOV leaking air into the system. As for the wideband, it doesn't do you much when it is its own standalone unit. For fine tuning it is OK but for diagnostic problems it isn't telling you much except for the fact that your car detected a fuel trim problem and your a/f ratio is being compensated for that.

 

[EC17PSE]

Right i got it now, thanks for the help and i really hope the bov is the problem and nothing else is part of the problem, once ive done the throttle rebuild and plug wires and bov i will check again after and make sure its better,

On a side note of leaks the fpr solanoid where the mitsubishi cap goes on sucks in air and i dont know if thats common or not? It has a port for something and only does it every now and then, if you dont know what one i mean i will get a pic tonight and post it up, i was thinking its using the manifold vacuum but air out side would not be good

 

[Colt4G63 also]

You're going to need to do something about that upstream O2 sensor. Don't you think it's strange that despite running rich as hell the front O2 sensor always reads lean? It is the only thing the ECU uses to compensate cruising AFRs.

 

[EC17PSE]

You're going to need to do something about that upstream O2 sensor. Don't you think it's strange that despite running rich as hell the front O2 sensor always reads lean? It is the only thing the ECU uses to compensate cruising AFRs.

But thats because of the air leak its reading that correct? Once the air leak has gone will the o2 sensor not read correctly and see the correct air flow? The sensor is just over 1 year old it cant of gone already

The sensor does chajge voltage readings correctly so it must be a good sensor, i was told im running full lean and not rich like the originaly though

 

[snowborder714]

Is there a way you can take a log with whatever software you use and export that to some file we can read? This would be much more helpful with an idle log that's a couple minutes long (with the car up at operating temp) than checking out instantaneous screenshots.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

What air leak? If there's such an air leak, then why does the downstream O2 , AND the wideband read so rich? Are they not connected to the same exhaust flow?


Ps. I work on cars for a living, and in my experience 90% of the time, the problem turns out to be exactly what the customer said it can't possibly be.

 

[BoredDSM]

What air leak? If there's such an air leak, then why does the downstream O2 , AND the wideband read so rich? Are they not connected to the same exhaust flow?


Ps. I work on cars for a living, and in my experience 90% of the time, the problem turns out to be exactly what the customer said it can't possibly be.

He found a leak from his lower nipple on his greddy BOV. Basing readings off any o2 sensor or wideband at this point would be inaccurate when his fuel trims are clearly showing a lean condition and it is confirmed that he has a vacuum leak into the system.

Ideally he would need to fix the vacuum leaks first and continue testing his o2 sensor and see if his issue is fixed.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

So it's lean, but when cruising the wideband reads 12:1 AFRs? I guess this is too advanced for me to understand.

Fix the torn BOV diaphragm, and let us know how it turns out.

 

[EC17PSE]

Is there a way you can take a log with whatever software you use and export that to some file we can read? This would be much more helpful with an idle log that's a couple minutes long (with the car up at operating temp) than checking out instantaneous screenshots.

I have one from the other night but i cant seem to upload it as its not a reconised file, its the logworks system from innovate motorsports, whats the best way to post it?

What air leak? If there's such an air leak, then why does the downstream O2 , AND the wideband read so rich? Are they not connected to the same exhaust flow?


Ps. I work on cars for a living, and in my experience 90% of the time, the problem turns out to be exactly what the customer said it can't possibly be.

Im not saying its not it but from the tests i have done it indicates that its a perfect o2 sensor but i post a log up later your you to judge if i figure out how to upload it