im running rich and i cant find out why!

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

So im fed up as i just got done with my timing belt fired it up and and re calibrated my wideband (lc-1) and at idle im ok 14.5-14.7 but when i cruise im at 12.5 sometimes a bit lower and WOT im about 9.8-10.3 and ive done 2 boost leak tests and found nothing, all the o2 sensors are just over 1 year old and the thermostat is about 1.5 years old and its had 3 coolant flushes in about 2 years, i thought it could be the CAS trigger cap thing inside the cover but ive been told its not that.

So what else can i look for or do to get this corrected as im getting bad milage and it was not like this before the change of the belts! Should i look at a rad cap or ingition wires? Would any of these cause issues of running rich???

Someone please give me a list of everything i should check and i will check them all again if i have to or read power or volts or anything to get it running how it was! Also im pretty sure its not the o2 as im not loosing any power and ive read thats a symptom,

PLEASE HELP ME i really dont know what to do or check next

 

[BoredDSM]

So it's lean, but when cruising the wideband reads 12:1 AFRs? I guess this is too advanced for me to understand.

Fix the torn BOV diaphragm, and let us know how it turns out.

It's not a hard concept to understand. The wideband is reading the a/f ratio. The ECU has already compensated for the lean condition by going into fuel enrichment. You can see that from the long term fuel trims being at 12% and short term being an additional 17%.

 

[snowborder714]

I have one from the other night but i cant seem to upload it as its not a reconised file, its the logworks system from innovate motorsports, whats the best way to post it?

What is the file extension? I can add it to the supporting files list (after consulting with Chris). Or see if you can extract as a .csv file.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

Your downstream O2 sensor appears to read rich on the snapshot you posted, while the upstream sensor reads super lean. If the wideband is saying it's rich too, I would be inclined to believe that it's rich.

Normally the downstream O2 sensor reads around middle (.5v) because the cat has completed the burn process. When the catalyst is cold, the downstream O2 sensor will read the same as the upstream sensor, just a fraction of a second later.

Normally the upstream O2 sensor (at criuse) will fluctuate between .75-.25 or so, the important part is that it repeatedly and constantly crosses the .5v threshold between more than 14.7:1, and less than 14.7:1. Higher voltage indicates richer, lower voltage indicates leaner.

The code P0170 indicates that there's a lean condition, (vacuum leak) and that the LTFT's have compensated for that by adding as much fuel as possible. It should only add/compensate enough to get the car to stoich (14.7:1), not make the car run pig rich at cruise.

Fix the vacuum leak, and see if it solved the problem. That snapshot makes me think there will still be a problem. Prove me wrong. I hope you do.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

What is the file extension? I can add it to the supporting files list (after consulting with Chris). Or see if you can extract as a .csv file.

I will see what it was when i get home as im not sure on the file

Your downstream O2 sensor appears to read rich on the snapshot you posted, while the upstream sensor reads super lean. If the wideband is saying it's rich too, I would be inclined to believe that it's rich.

Normally the downstream O2 sensor reads around middle (.5v) because the cat has completed the burn process. When the catalyst is cold, the downstream O2 sensor will read the same as the upstream sensor, just a fraction of a second later.

Normally the upstream O2 sensor (at criuse) will fluctuate between .75-.25 or so, the important part is that it repeatedly and constantly crosses the .5v threshold between more than 14.7:1, and less than 14.7:1. Higher voltage indicates richer, lower voltage indicates leaner.

The code P0170 indicates that there's a lean condition, (vacuum leak) and that the LTFT's have compensated for that by adding as much fuel as possible. It should only add/compensate enough to get the car to stoich (14.7:1), not make the car run pig rich at cruise.

Fix the vacuum leak, and see if it solved the problem. That snapshot makes me think there will still be a problem. Prove me wrong. I hope you do.

Well when cruising i dont think tue volts are constanly high i will have to double check but they do go up and down so thats why i dont think its always rich like your surgesting

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What is the file extension? I can add it to the supporting files list (after consulting with Chris). Or see if you can extract as a .csv file.

ive uploaded the files as a .csv file

so anyone that can see what its doing them please do

So i had a few more drives and inspections and i have a few things that now make me 100% its lean and not rich l.

The drives are now very powerful and pulls very hard and i have read thats a bad sign, and it does seem a little hotter under the bonnet but not alot more, there is also excess water dropping from the rear of the exhaust and it smokes white but its cold here right now so thats showing up more in the cold weather, ive checked its water 100%.

If anyone can see the logs and let me know if my sensors are gone i will replace the upstream one

 

[snowborder714]

Based on the log files you sent me, it looks like your front o2 sensor (OT_2_O2S11) is dead or not responding well. This image shows the front o2 (red line at bottom, kind of hard to see, but it has a few small spikes around 3.20s and just after 11.40s when it's not at 0.000V), rear o2 (green line), and coolant temp (brown line). The coolant gets up to 88° C (178° F) which is darn close to operating temp, so the o2 should be cycling by then.

I'm not sure what OT_2_FUEL1_OL is, but would be interested to know.

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[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

Based on the log files you sent me, it looks like your front o2 sensor (OT_2_O2S11) is dead or not responding well. This image shows the front o2 (red line at bottom, kind of hard to see, but it has a few small spikes around 3.20s and just after 11.40s when it's not at 0.000V), rear o2 (green line), and coolant temp (brown line). The coolant gets up to 88° C (178° F) which is darn close to operating temp, so the o2 should be cycling by then.

I'm not sure what OT_2_FUEL1_OL is, but would be interested to know.

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right so i should get a new sensor aswell then, well i think im going to get an ngk/ntk as there good and the stock denso ive got has given up after a short amout of time on the car, would any of the plugs on the harness being dirty cause this incase there is some gunk on it?

and the fuel 1 OL is just open loop and all it shows is if its on or off thats all it does so if that shoes its on at a given point im sure to o2 should match what its doing

 

[snowborder714]

That might make sense then as it's in open loop during most of that log (didn't include that line on the image above), which would happen if the ECU doesn't get a signal from the o2 sensor after a certain amount of time.
fueltrimupdatepoints [ECMTuning - wiki]

I'd try a new front sensor for sure.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

also do you want me to isolate just the 6 sensors and send over another log at FULL operating temp just to make sure i will have to get that over the weekend as im not with the car till sat in the day,

ones i will log will be both 02 sensors both fuel trims long/short and rpm and operating temp

that way we can be 100% sure its a dead o2 sensor

 

[snowborder714]

Yes, that'd be helpful. You can leave everything in there, as the more data there the better. I can always just hide the values/lines on my end, which is what I did for the above image.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

That might make sense then as it's in open loop during most of that log (didn't include that line on the image above), which would happen if the ECU doesn't get a signal from the o2 sensor after a certain amount of time.
fueltrimupdatepoints [ECMTuning - wiki]

I'd try a new front sensor for sure.

right reading that makes sense, its not always in open loop and as i watch it while driving but as i dont know what im ment to be reading and what sensor should be doing what untill i learn it all, im just going to replace the sensor and be done with it

Yes, that'd be helpful. You can leave everything in there, as the more data there the better. I can always just hide the values/lines on my end, which is what I did for the above image.

ok no problems, i will do a drive on sat and then send you the log in the evening, is there anything else you need in the log? or just the items in the 16 channel log

 

[Colt4G63 also]

Great! Now that you guys are all caught up, you may want to check for 12 volts and ground from the O2 heater circuit. If the O2 heater doesn't work, the sensor may not warm up enough to work most of the time.

 

[snowborder714]

ok no problems, i will do a drive on sat and then send you the log in the evening, is there anything else you need in the log? or just the items in the 16 channel log

I honestly have no idea what else you can log, but get whatever you think might be helpful and capture it.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

Pin 60 from the ECU supplies ground to the front O2 heater via a yellow wire, power is supplied by a red wire that should always be hot when the key is on. You should check that stuff before putting in another new O2 sensor.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

Pin 60 from the ECU supplies ground to the front O2 heater via a yellow wire, power is supplied by a red wire that should always be hot when the key is on. You should check that stuff before putting in another new O2 sensor.

so am i checking it from the ecu side or the o2 sensor harness side?

 

[snowborder714]

ECU side. The o2 sensor side won't emit it's own power/ground.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

I honestly have no idea what else you can log, but get whatever you think might be helpful and capture it.

ok i think thats all the main items to log.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/manual/OT-2 SDK.pdf

if you look right at the end it shows all that can be logged i have no idea on some of them and im still trying to work out how to get my lc-1 wide band to connect through the serial link and log it in the logworks with the other items

 

[snowborder714]

What you have should be good for now.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

ECU side. The o2 sensor side won't emit it's own power/ground.

ok so what am i looking for? im assuming volts and at what value am i needing from this yellow wire and am i having to do anything to the red wire aswell?

 

[Colt4G63 also]

ok so what am i looking for? im assuming volts and at what value am i needing from this yellow wire and am i having to do anything to the red wire aswell?

I usually jumper a halogen headlamp bulb between the two wires, (red and yellow) then turn on the key. If the bulb glows brightly, then the circuit is good.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

I usually jumper a halogen headlamp bulb between the two wires, (red and yellow) then turn on the key. If the bulb glows brightly, then the circuit is good.

Gotcha and if it does not then is my ecu bad?

Also just so i test it correctly, the RED wire is that on the same loom or on another loom of the ecu? Im sure im going to see a few red wires down there, or does it not even matter what red wire it is last thing i want is to do some damage to the ecu

 

[Colt4G63 also]

Sorry, I was away for a few hours.

The red wire (at the harness side of the front O2 plug) is supposed to be 12V from the MPI relay. It's the exact same circuit that powers the MAF, all your solenoids, the ISC, etc. etc... The wire has factory splices thruout the harness, and branches off to just about everything under the hood that requires`12V when the engine is running.

The yellow wire (at the harness side of the front O2 plug) goes directly to the ECU pin#60, where the ECU supplies ground.

The light is a "quick test", but if the light doesn't come on, then there is obviously more than one possible cause.

Ps. If you want to see the wiring diagram, go to the ECMlink site, and click on "knowledge base">"recources">"ECU wiring information". Then under 2g there are two links. The top one is the ECU pinouts, the bottom one is the full engine wiring schematic.

Don't leave the light on forever, but just turn on the key long enough to verify that the light does in fact come on, and is full brightness. This will not harm the ECU, as the circuit is designed to support an actual heating coil that is built into all HEGO style sensors.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

Sorry, I was away for a few hours.

The red wire (at the harness side of the front O2 plug) is supposed to be 12V from the MPI relay. It's the exact same circuit that powers the MAF, all your solenoids, the ISC, etc. etc... The wire has factory splices thruout the harness, and branches off to just about everything under the hood that requires`12V when the engine is running.

The yellow wire (at the harness side of the front O2 plug) goes directly to the ECU pin#60, where the ECU supplies ground.

The light is a "quick test", but if the light doesn't come on, then there is obviously more than one possible cause.

Ps. If you want to see the wiring diagram, go to the ECMlink site, and click on "knowledge base">"recources">"ECU wiring information". Then under 2g there are two links. The top one is the ECU pinouts, the bottom one is the full engine wiring schematic.

Don't leave the light on forever, but just turn on the key long enough to verify that the light does in fact come on, and is full brightness. This will not harm the ECU, as the circuit is designed to support an actual heating coil that is built into all HEGO style sensors.

Thats very helpfull thanks, i am going to be testing all this again on sat and getting another log over to snowborder to 100% confirm the dead sensor which has spikes in it last time he said. Will post back after all that is done

Cheers colt4g63

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

So i did the light test and it did not come on but when i tested it with a multi meter it had power and even the ground was working so im not sure on whats next to look for, snowborder has been sent another log just to confirm the sensor is inface dead and i will wait untill then as there is not much else i can do and look for as i dont know what else could be wrong now the light test did not work???

 

[snowborder714]

I checked out the log and I see the front o2 voltage is 0v most of the time with most of the spikes being .020v or .040v, which to me says it's dead. Try swapping it out for a new one.

 

[Colt4G63 also]

I've been talking with the OP via PMs, and it turns out the O2 heater is not seeing a ground from the ECU. Those spikes you see are the brief moments when the heat from the exhaust gas brings the sensor up top operating temprature.