How off are these timing marks

[Bchiles]

I know this has been tackled many times before I was just looking for advice in my situation. After many months of waiting and working and waiting and working I am 95% complete with this build that started as a "simple" head gasket.

My issue is I believe that my timing marks are off on my cams. I have performed all of the steps necessary to complete the timing belt replacement. I made sure to get all new components while I had everything apart and open. I spent a good amount of time getting the correct spacing on the auto adjuster. However, while feverishly working on the spacing I believe I may have let the cams slip out of alignment. All of the other timing marks are lined up I have rotated the engine six times, and the others still all match up including the balance shaft. Since I am waiting for a new timing cover (supposedly arriving tomorrow) I planned to button it all up fire her up and then check to ensure that all parts are working properly and that nothing is leaking (new water pump).

My question is whether or not it is safe to start the vehicle with the cams partially off? or Should I do what I think is probably the right move break it all back down adjust the timing, and then put it back together, check all moving parts with out the timing cover, and then take it all back apart and put the cover on assuming that there are no leaks or problems? I figure that I will also have to adjust the CAS because I was an idiot when I put it back on and didnt line up the points so please take that into consideration. I am just looking for any advice that may save me an hour or two.

Here are two pictures of the cams so you guys have an idea of what I am talking about.

 

[DSM1G90]

Redo the tensioner - that is why your marks aren't lining up.

If you got crank, oil pump and front balance marks all aligned up (and you laid the belt across the two cam sprockets first, locked the belt down on the cams with bulldog clips, or similar, then laces up the oil pump sprocket and then crank sprocket and finally the tensioner...in that order) and you get this, the auto adjuster didn't get set correctly.

It might take a few times to get it right ... but, it has to be RIGHT.

It'll still run when it's a bit off like this, but you ain't going to get half of the performance out of that motor with the timing set off.

I will also have to adjust the CAS because

When you do the CAS, on the end of the INT cam, you see that "house" symbol on the end of the exposed camshaft. That symbol has to be up. On the CAS, you notice that one end of the blade has a groove and that groove meets the dimple on the CAS body. Then the CAS will be in time with the INT cam when you put the CAS back on.

Good luck - DSM

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Before tearing it apart again, how does your hydraulic tensioner look? Did you measure the auto tensioner push rod position? Use a drill bit to measure the distance between the tensioner arm and auto tensioner body to ensure that it falls within the specification of 3.8-4.5 mm (.15-.18 in.) as shown below.

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Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED)

Based on your pictures, the camshaft marks do not look to be a whole tooth off so if the tensioner is set properly and double checks, then that is as good as it is going to get. If you move the exhaust cam another tooth over, it will be more off. Did you use a new hydraulic tensioner and tensioner pulley? Did you follow the steps to properly set the tension? And did you double and triple check that the tension is still correct?

 

[Bchiles]

I did follow the steps, that were on VFAQ, and several other message boards. The drill bit method seemed to work the best for me. I may have spent over two hours trying to get the auto adjuster correct. I am going to check that first and foremost, before I start completely over. I did get all new timing components including pulleys and tensioner. I understand that the gap is very important that is why I wanted more eyes on the timing marks before I continued on. The problem I was having was to much leverage on the pulley and when I tightened it down it would make the gap to narrow. I will go back and check the auto tensioner first, this is my first time dealing with an auto tensioner, but I would rather spend three hours getting the gap correct then wasting all the other hours of work I have put into. Thanks guys!

 

[romeen]

I think your timing marks are fine. If you were to rotate the motor back (counter-clockwise) just a tiny bit to get the cam marks lined up and then checked the other marks that they would still be lined up. Although your not supposed to rotate the motor backwards I don't think that little tiny bit that's required to get the cams lined up will cause any problems. Or rotate another 6 times then recheck. Either way line up the cam gear marks first then check the others.

 

[delta448]

Agreed. That's too close to not be correct.

 

[knochgoon24]

Was your head or block decked? If so, that's what's causing the marks to be off a little.

 

[Talondvr]

Was your head or block decked? If so, that's what's causing the marks to be off a little.

Kind of the same way mine looked. It was said to have a rebuilt motor and head w/3000 miles when I bought it. I redid the clutch and head gasket and experienced the same issue w/ my timing belt. Would something like this cause the car to feel like a paint shaker? How would this be corrected?

 

[knochgoon24]

The balance shafts being out of time will make the car feel like a paint shaker. The oil pump gear can be out of time even if the marks line up. The rear balance shaft is geared off of that, so you have to turn the oil pump one full rotation and retime it to get that rear balance shaft in time.

The cam gears being off that little bit aren't the cause of your shaking.

 

[Bchiles]

First things first, Thanks everyone for all of the tips I appreciate the time.

The problem was a simple case of paranoia. When I had removed the auxiliary pulleys, alternator, and engine mounts it was as simple as what "romeen" had thought all of the pulleys where slightly off. When I had tightened the crank pulley I had slightly moved the entire timing belt. However, I am still glad that I assured my self that my timing gap was correct.

As for the CAS I am awaiting on a friend to use my timing light to get the motor back to 5 degrees past TDC.

My to do list still has 8 tasks on it however the rest of them should be a walk in the park compared to doing the Timing Belt and Timing Components, Head Gasket (including upper engine gasket replacement), Turbo Manifold, MBC, Boost Gauge, Oil Catch, Home Made EGR Block off and Vacuum line removal, And hours of cleaning misc. parts.

 

[2slow4now]

Was your head or block decked? If so, that's what's causing the marks to be off a little.

Mine did the same thing and they were decked.

 

[Gavin24]

Use a straight edge to ensure its perfectly straight...

 

[DSM1G90]

5 degrees past TDC

.. you want it before TDC. 5*BTDC

After.. would be so retarded, it prob won't run.

 

[Talondvr]

The balance shafts being out of time will make the car feel like a paint shaker. The oil pump gear can be out of time even if the marks line up. The rear balance shaft is geared off of that, so you have to turn the oil pump one full rotation and retime it to get that rear balance shaft in time.

The cam gears being off that little bit aren't the cause of your shaking.

This has the BSE done. It runs good, just real shaky. I've pretty much lost hope to smooth it out short of rebuilding the hole motor.

 

[ed1380]

its 16 teeth from the top of one cam gear to the other.

 

[Tyeler18]

its 16 teeth from the top of one cam gear to the other.

Easier to go by timing marks. It's 39 teeth from the 9 o'clock timing mark on the exhaust cam to the 3 o'clock mark on the intake cam.

 

[GRace]

Are you lining up the cam timing marks with the engine in the car? I tried that three times, each time my motor vibrated moderately bad at idle. I assumed it was the balance shaft elimination. I was wrong.

If your center cam marks didn't line up 99% parallel (a lot closer than your pics show) with the head surface in the background then it is wrong. Unbold the three motor mounts, leave the tranny mount bolted, and jack the engine up a good 8" if yours will let you. Just enough to actually see the timing marks line up with the head.

It took me about 15 seconds to line up the cam marks when I could see them in relation to the head. Use clips on the timing belt cam sprockets to hold the belt in place if you aren't already doing it.

Of course make sure the crank mark and cam marks are still lined up and everything is tensioned properly after a few rotations and you are good to go.

Since your engine is apparently in the car, just take the few hours to redo the timing belt. My car idled so smooth after I finally got the timing perfect.

 

[ed1380]

Easier to go by timing marks. It's 39 teeth from the 9 o'clock timing mark on the exhaust cam to the 3 o'clock mark on the intake cam.

That works too I'm just too lazy to count that much

 

[romeen]

Are you lining up the cam timing marks with the engine in the car? I tried that three times, each time my motor vibrated moderately bad at idle. I assumed it was the balance shaft elimination. I was wrong.

If your center cam marks didn't line up 99% parallel (a lot closer than your pics show) with the head surface in the background then it is wrong. Unbold the three motor mounts, leave the tranny mount bolted, and jack the engine up a good 8" if yours will let you. Just enough to actually see the timing marks line up with the head.

It took me about 15 seconds to line up the cam marks when I could see them in relation to the head. Use clips on the timing belt cam sprockets to hold the belt in place if you aren't already doing it.

Of course make sure the crank mark and cam marks are still lined up and everything is tensioned properly after a few rotations and you are good to go.

Since your engine is apparently in the car, just take the few hours to redo the timing belt. My car idled so smooth after I finally got the timing perfect.

Just use a straight edge to extend the line between the inner cam gear marks. The line should go across the center of the cam gear bolts.

Some guys try to line up the inner and outer cam gear marks (all 4) but only the inner marks should be used.