Horsepower W/o Turbo?

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Stock 4g63s on 8 psi with a 8.5:1 comp rto =215 HP. stock 420a has a 9.5:1 comp rto add 8psi boost u get 286 HP at the flywheel . hitting 300 HP on a 420a is easy with a good tune and a turbo and a lil more fuel y spend all the crazy money if u don't have to mine pushes more than 300 but has fist fills of 100$ bills thrown at it just turbo it u will be happy with the outcome I promise

First learn how to spell and attempt proper grammar. That is a rule here.

Second unless you have a dyno sheet confirming this, you are probably not making 300fwhp.

What leap of logic does it take for one to state something like:

Stock 4g63s on 8 psi with a 8.5:1 comp rto =215 HP. stock 420a has a 9.5:1 comp rto add 8psi boost u get 286 HP at the flywheel .

8psi on a stock T25 is not the same as 8psi on a GT4202R for a given motor. 8psi on a given motor/turbo combo is not even guaranteed to provide the same amount of airflow day to day as atmospheric conditions change.

This also neglects which turbine wheel and housing, as well as other differences in configuration.

Long story short, stop making things up.

 

[Abe'sGST]

Stock 4g63s on 8 psi with a 8.5:1 comp rto =215 HP. stock 420a has a 9.5:1 comp rto add 8psi boost u get 286 HP at the flywheel . hitting 300 HP on a 420a is easy with a good tune and a turbo and a lil more fuel y spend all the crazy money if u don't have to mine pushes more than 300 but has fist fills of 100$ bills thrown at it just turbo it u will be happy with the outcome I promise

WTFI want to see the dyno sheet

 

[jwq1992]

i've taken everything everyone here has said on this thread to heart. maybe i should turbo my 420a.? i donno quite yet. all i know is i need to start some where to get setup for autocross (hence the thread that i made) and basicly a place to start modding up.

 

[8BoltDSM]

NA HP is is all about airflow, Internals, and a good tune. Higher compression forged pistons, good rods, big cams, fully ported head, good intake, TB and mani, header and exhaust, and preferably a stand alone ECU. My former NA build consisted of wiseco 10.5's, eagle rods, fully spun balanced short block, crankscraper, CI Motorsports Stage 4 head, Crower stage 3 cams, custom intake mani, bigger TB, CAI, full length header, test pipe, full cat-back, and Megasquirt. Plus a lighter flywheel, custom single belt Underdrive pulley( no power steering or AC). And some ignition upgrades. Fuel is not so much as important unless your near the duty cycle on the injectors. But most important is a good tune or things go bad.

 

[jayson427]

It defintely cost alot I have about 6-7 grand just in my motor and another 2-3500 in suspension exhaust and every little thing you don't think about. I would say im about 180-190 hp but im still tuning it. In the end I wanted a challenge and it was worth it now im driving my car. It took me 2-3 years to buy and finish my build.

 

[Tribal_RS_96]

It gets pricey. No lie there, but the best place to start is to plan everything out that your budget can afford. You can also check out DSM Graveyard - Your #1 Source for DSM Parts! They build 420a performance motors and blocks, but they do not note the horsepower they put out, and range from 2k to about 3.5k for crate motors, then you factor shipping in. Just have to shop around a lot!

I love my motor with the headers, intake and exhaust, its great for auto-crossing.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Try reading the reviews on The DSMGraveyard before you send anyone there.

I've personally done business with them on a few occasions and based on that, never again.

If you like multiple consecutive mess-ups, huge turnaround time and poor communication, they are your best bet I suppose.

Jon is in over his head.

 

[jayson427]

I can agree with landspeed-dsm there. I ordered stock 420a cam gears to get the timing correct on my motor since I lost one. they sent me 3000 gt cam gears I was not happy about that since the difference is pretty big. That was the last and only time I called them. I wouldn't buy a motor from them. Just my opinion tho

 

[bo0st]

Start off with headers, full exhaust, cold air intake, MSD ignition, full maintenance check of course (I shouldn't even have to mention this) then get a pulley either Unordothox or the other one I think they're about the same I'm running the Unorthodox Racing Pulley personally and it was the best $250 spent on the car thus far for performance wise.

Then look into a nitrous setup if you don't want turbo I personally dont want a turbo atm either since its my DD and I don't want to be boosting all the time I know i'd get addicted to the boost but everyone has there preferences. I like the idea of Nitrous because it's power when you need it and you don't have to use it everyday it's not a turbo it's not going to be reducing your gas mileage and you don't have to rebuild the turbo every so often.

Plus everyone is going to think your gonna blow your engine but infact you'd race by them at the track most likely beating them, many nitrous cars are very fast if set up properly and just make sure the engine is healthy you should be good to go (also run 2 steps colder plugs as mentioned by many members here)

 

[TheEagle]

IMO the 420a-> 4g63 is a nearly impossible mod short of getting the front subframe from one with a 4g63 and welding it on. And the only way I see this is getting a loaded wrecked one and switching it all in. Very costly.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Not all cylinder pressure is created equally and I doubt you'll be able to get the timing and AF down to make the same power as comparably gently as you would with a turbo.

Because its the rate at which the cylinder pressure increases combined with when the burn started in the cycle, how it propagates and where/what rod and crank angle it peaks at thats important here.

Don't get me wrong nitrous is fun, but its definitely not as practical as a turbo. Definitely not practical for a DD as you are trying to make it out to be, especially compared to a turbo which is basically recycling waste heat.. literally increasing the efficiency of the engine.

So you both have a good deal of research ahead of you.

BTW a turbo is only used as often as you dip your foot on the gas, so the only thing that would be reducing your gas mileage is your lack of self restraint.

Plus you dont have to worry about bottle pressure throwing off your tune, refilling the bottle etc.

Considering that many MHI, BW, Garrett, Holset turbos go for a hundred thousand miles or more as OE turbos for severe duty applications a rebuild is not exactly a constant or routine worry.

It sounds like you have no idea whats actually involved and this is just your way of rationalizing your fear/ignorance of turbocharging and preference for what seems like a cheaper setup, which in this case is nitrous.

 

[TheEagle]

In summary of it all, if your trying to break 200 HP, the turbo is the way to go.

Starting with a 420a, it will cost around $4,500-$5,000 for the engine to be built to handle a turbo and the hahn stage 2 kit to be producing around 2 and a half with a lower boost (under 10). But when you start trying to go beyond the 250,275 mark then your fuel system and all will need yo be upgraded to handle demand better.

The hahn stage 2 kit is expensive at $3,000 itself where you could probably build an alright setup for less than this. But yep, trying to get more performance is going to cost.

Basically the question is, how much is it worth to you?

 

[bo0st]

Not all cylinder pressure is created equally and I doubt you'll be able to get the timing and AF down to make the same power as comparably gently as you would with a turbo.

Because its the rate at which the cylinder pressure increases combined with when the burn started in the cycle, how it propagates and where/what rod and crank angle it peaks at thats important here.

Don't get me wrong nitrous is fun, but its definitely not as practical as a turbo. Definitely not practical for a DD as you are trying to make it out to be, especially compared to a turbo which is basically recycling waste heat.. literally increasing the efficiency of the engine.

So you both have a good deal of research ahead of you.

BTW a turbo is only used as often as you dip your foot on the gas, so the only thing that would be reducing your gas mileage is your lack of self restraint.

Plus you dont have to worry about bottle pressure throwing off your tune, refilling the bottle etc.

Considering that many MHI, BW, Garrett, Holset turbos go for a hundred thousand miles or more as OE turbos for severe duty applications a rebuild is not exactly a constant or routine worry.

It sounds like you have no idea whats actually involved and this is just your way of rationalizing your fear/ignorance of turbocharging and preference for what seems like a cheaper setup, which in this case is nitrous.

Hey what RPM does your turbo kick in at? Do you keep your car at like under 3k at all times?

Turbos are always on they're always spooling, nitrous is not. To say one is better than the other is not true either.

I can show you a turbo car kill a nitrous car in the strip and I could show you a nitrous car smoke a turbo car by 6 car lengths.

 

[starfish]

I can drive my car all day long without boosting it.All the turbos are different.Some spool up faster than others,it all depends on how you drive.Mines been pretty reliable for a GSP turbo.I bought the turbo kit for $1000 and ended up replacing everything eccept for the turbo,manifold and intercooler.The only problems I found with the cheap ebay turbo was with the casting.It needed alot of grinding and polishing,but the internals were the same as you get with any decent rebuild kit.Since I got my fuel management set up properly,its been very reliable.And my block is totally stock.Have not had any problems so far for 2 years(about 12,000 miles)8-9psi daily.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Hey what RPM does your turbo kick in at? Do you keep your car at like under 3k at all times?

Turbos are always on they're always spooling, nitrous is not. To say one is better than the other is not true either.

I can show you a turbo car kill a nitrous car in the strip and I could show you a nitrous car smoke a turbo car by 6 car lengths.

Have you ever owned or driven a turbocharged car? If you don't put a load on them they don't take up vacuum and you wont make boost.

You realize that first of all, not all turbos spool at the same rate. My HX52 on my current setup won't be on full song of 45+ psi till 5.5-6k in 3rd gear. A 14b on a stock motor at 9-11psi will be good to go by 2.5-3k in 3rd.

Second they spool at different rates in different gears.. because again they are load dependent. So a stock 1G might see full boost @ 4.5k in 1st or 2k in 4th

On a given turbo can be at 3k rpm in 3rd gear at full boost or 8k rpm in 4th in vacuum.

The content of my post clearly went over your head.

The way they create power is different in many ways and exceedingly few people actually know how to tune for nitrous, let alone DIY guys trying to make power on the cheap in a DD street car.

You can make the same power with more predictability and less stress with a turbo. The best part is.. its always there if you want it.

 

[necrotopsy]

First off the 420a is heavily modded, in the neon and avenger world, although there are differences in the over all engine.

just like to mention that there is NO difference between an avenger 420a and a DSM 420a. same exact engine.
in the neon, it's the same engine, but with the head flipped (exhaust ports in the back, intake up front)

and btw, this thread is old .

I'd like to help a bit the the "load" explanation.

have you ever been cruising around town in 4th gear at like 30 mph? and have you ever floored it at that speed, in that gear? you will notice that just cruising at that speed, in that gear, the exhaust will be very quiet. but if you floor it, it gets louder, and deeper, but you're not really going any faster. (you're not really making enough HP to accelerate much at that speed, in that gear)

that's load. you're adding extra fuel, allowing in more air, this causes thicker exhaust gasses, which in turn makes more exhaust noise.

well a turbo runs off these "thicker" exhaust gasses. you can be at 80 mph in 3rd gear (which would be around 5 grand or so?) and if you just keep it steady at 80 mph, the turbo doesn't even get used. it's when you start adding fuel, which thickens the exhaust, which spins the turbo, and bam now you have boost!

so on a turbo car, as long as you don't give it enough gas that the exhaust gets thick enough to spin the turbo, you'll never been in boost, and you'll get the same MPG as without a turbo =D

 

[SweetLeaf]

Ive Got a 97 GS, With Some Small Mods Nothing Pretty, Im looking into buying another 420a block to build, was wanting to see what options were out there without buying a turbo?

I've heard of this but don't know jack about it. Seems interesting enough to investigate a little further. Supercharged 420a!!! - Team-2G Mitsubishi Forum

 

[jcart953]

I've heard of this but don't know jack about it. Seems interesting enough to investigate a little further. Supercharged 420a!!! - Team-2G Mitsubishi Forum

Did you even bother reading that thread? It showed little merit not to mention that topic has already been discussed and I'm pretty sure if it was more possible more would be doing it.

 

[all_motor_mike]

420a's are very good motors to build wether it be n/a or turbo. 200whp in a 420a is not as hard as everybody makes it out to be. it just takes the proper parts and tuning. tuning is a very important part that can yield great gains when ## able to adjust your timing and fuel. 12:1 compression, crower 3's, proper header and intake manifold and larger throttle body mated to a properly ported head and u got the recipe for ~200WHP. and lets throw in some cam tuning for good measure. Its money that prevents people from doing it all the time, thats what is usually boils down to.


mike

 

[bullettdsm]

tuning is a very important part that can yield great gains when ## able to adjust your timing and fuel. 12:1 compression, crower 3's, proper header and intake manifold and larger throttle body mated to a properly ported head and u got the recipe for ~200WHP.


mike

Hence the need to chuck the stock ECU and get MS. And also apparently, the need for an LTH.

MB

 

[teklein]

if you are making NA hp, you wont need to worry about fuel mods till you get close to 200whp, which is not an easy feat ontop of that, dont worry about dsmlink, get Megasquirt. Also do you plan on competing in the NA scene or just looking for a quick NA DD, cause then you can explore nitrous, or something else beyond turbo

FYI - I am close to 180whp NA (need to redyno) and am at 85% duty cycles on 270's.

YMMV.

 

[bullettdsm]

FYI - I am close to 180whp NA (need to redyno) and am at 85% duty cycles on 270's.

YMMV.

Something funny there (or maybe just different). I was running stock injectors up to that point and I changed mine out at 85% duty cycle. Would have gone to 200whp but I don't like over 85% duty cycle.

MB

 

[Slo2gen]

Its true Mark, logging it in Tunerstudio just the other night, he is actually hitting 87% at one point...

 

[teklein]

Something funny there (or maybe just different). I was running stock injectors up to that point and I changed mine out at 85% duty cycle. Would have gone to 200whp but I don't like over 85% duty cycle.

MB

Its true Mark, logging it in Tunerstudio just the other night, he is actually hitting 87% at one point...

Yep, Zac speaks the troof! Unless I am somehow over 180. Car hasnt been dynoed since the original 170 with 250mi on the motor.

 

[all_motor_mike]

Hence the need to chuck the stock ECU and get MS. MB

precisely!


mike