Horrible dyno tune?

[97_4g63t]

Am I just an complete idiot or is this just ####ing horrible. I wish he would have saved a log so I could show it. 91 pump gas 4th gear pulls. 27psi. 15* of knock with 0* of timing. Ummm doesn't that mean you need higher octane or to turn the boost down? That is how it was left. How many of yall have had to run through two gears on the dyno?

 

[Brandon Mau]

You need a new tuner altogether. Some thing doesn't sound right to me unless that gas is compete junk, 15 degree's knock on 27 P.S.I with all of your mods. Did you do a boost leak test before you went? How is your AIT's looking? What plugs are you running? I see you have a Greddy FMIC but what size is the core and are you 100% that it is Greddy?

 

[lbz34]

As a tuner for 20 years, there could be a lot of variables you have not mentioned, which would affect my opinion as a professional shop owner/tuner. With that being said, I personally do not like going much over 20 psi on pump gas, the a/f looks like it leans out at the top and the car is obviously not happy there as the graph shows. Everyone is now a "tooner" if they have a laptop and some software/hardware, and the masses suffer from it. I would look somewhere else for guidance with your build if you can.

 

[Brandon Mau]

Assuming your running 43.5 P.S.I or 3 bar fuel base pressure with boost pressure being 27 P.S.I, 2150cc injectors with a re-wired Walbro 255 Total pressure 70.5 P.S.I your turbo is no where near close to running that amount of airflow to max it out.

 

[97_4g63t]

Bpr7es gapped .024. Boost leak test is solid and I'm on sd. 3rd did fine ### it was already tuned for 22 psi. He just kept adding fuel to richen it up. Which did nothing for the knock. He actually asked me how much boost it was running in the pull. He said it was too high for pump but still didn't turn it down. He asked me if you could turn it down just in 4th. I'm not the damn tuner here. He ended up doing a pull from bottom of 3rd to top of 4th. I'm guessing so it wouldn't build as much boost in 4th? Idk wtf. I even had e85 with me to run and he said I wouldn't get anymore power running it because I would run out of pump? A rewired 255 won't even make 400? I'm pretty sure the guy just didn't know the software which is whatever but don't tell me you can do it and charge me $350 if you can't.

I didn't look at the aits but I haven't had a problem with them. I don't remember the core size I bought the intercooler years back brand new. It is for sure genuine greddy.

 

[97_4g63t]

As a tuner for 20 years, there could be a lot of variables you have not mentioned, which would affect my opinion as a professional shop owner/tuner. With that being said, I personally do not like going much over 20 psi on pump gas, the a/f looks like it leans out at the top and the car is obviously not happy there as the graph shows. Everyone is now a "tooner" if they have a laptop and some software/hardware, and the masses suffer from it. I would look somewhere else for guidance with your build if you can.

Which shop do you run? I was actually in Albuquerque the day before and tried to get ahold of someone to get a tune. I'm by far not a tuner but what other variables do you mean? I'm just giving what I seen and was told.

 

[Brandon Mau]

If he was adding fuel to get rid of knock then it could have been rich knock in this case. You don't necessarily add fuel to get rid of knock. Maybe you should get a hold of Docowod a supporting freelancer on here for a remote tune.

 

[97_4g63t]

If he was adding fuel to get rid of knock then it could have been rich knock in this case. You don't necessarily add fuel to get rid of knock. Maybe you should get a hold of Docowod a supporting freelancer on here for a remote tune.

Idk what he was doing. I was already getting a remote tune from my1gdsm. It was great but only on pump and we didn't finish it. I had some cash so I figured I would just get it finished on the dyno with an e85 tune as well. Yeah now I got this. I'm switching the tune back to where my1gdsm left off.

 

[black97spyder]

My 1gdsm does GREAT work and is very meticulous. I would definitely ride it out with his tune until you get finished. It will definitely pay off IMO.

 

[97_4g63t]

My 1gdsm does GREAT work and is very meticulous. I would definitely ride it out with his tune until you get finished. It will definitely pay off IMO.

For sure bro. Thanks for the input.

 

[lbz34]

Which shop do you run? I was actually in Albuquerque the day before and tried to get ahold of someone to get a tune. I'm by far not a tuner but what other variables do you mean? I'm just giving what I seen and was told.

Don't want to step on any toes feel free to PM me. What I mean by variables stuff like ignition problems, turbo problems. there can be a lot of problems with builds when they go to get tuned. I am not saying you have any of those problems, but they do pop up.

 

[killercolt]

Looks like you are trying to blow the engine up on pump gas. 27psi and 15* of timing are too much for pump gas. I don't even care for that much timing on e85. Guess I am just a lot more conservative and don't care for small hp gain per degree of timing. It looks like your fuel system is taking a dump a long the way. Check for the boost reference to the fuel regulator. It looks like you are not getting a 1:1 reference.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Hey man, I shot over an Email to you...
We can get this sorted out. Sounds like someone didn't have a clue what they were doing and just left the car as is without adding fuel up top where we had not got to on pump gas last.

Also, Boost was probably higher after you took care of the Slipping clutch were we left off.
Regardless at 20-22psi the car was making pretty decent power and there was not issues with the car aside from the Clutch not holding the power. Shame you had someone do this to you... Really could have hurt the motor with it picking up that much knock.

Anyway shoot me back a message and we can pick up where we left off.

Thanks again

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Statements made in this thread like "Won't go over 20psi on pump gas" or how 15* advance on E85 is more than they are comfortable with are worrying..

OP - reach out to one of our reputable Vendors or Freelance members.

 

[Beaubo]

Where did you get it dynoed?

 

[97_4g63t]

Hey man, I shot over an Email to you...
We can get this sorted out. Sounds like someone didn't have a clue what they were doing and just left the car as is without adding fuel up top where we had not got to on pump gas last.

Also, Boost was probably higher after you took care of the Slipping clutch were we left off.
Regardless at 20-22psi the car was making pretty decent power and there was not issues with the car aside from the Clutch not holding the power. Shame you had someone do this to you... Really could have hurt the motor with it picking up that much knock.

Anyway shoot me back a message and we can pick up where we left off.

Thanks again

Will do man. I've got crazy hours scheduled for me for the next few weeks so it'll be a little bit. Also got some better tires as well so hopefully no more spinning.

I took it to speed factory in el paso.

 

[killercolt]

Statements made in this thread like "Won't go over 20psi on pump gas" or how 15* advance on E85 is more than they are comfortable with are worrying..

OP - reach out to one of our reputable Vendors or Freelance members.

If I see 1-2hp gain for 1 degree of timing, I am pretty much done. A lot of people street tune and watch for knock to indicated the level of timing that the engine will tolerate. Many times the engine will gain next to nothing with increase in timing without showing know. Some times, you can gain power by dropping the timing even if the car does not show knock. This is especially true with e85 because the engine might not make or lose power with no knock present on the log. People try to squeeze every once of hp out of the engine and just end up risking engine failure. They put a lot of pressure on tuners to add timing or run leaner and want to cry when their engine act up when the weather change. I usually advise being on the conservative side of the tuning and give up the 10-20hp for reliability.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

As a physical fact of how they burn.. under high load/high rpm, majority ethanol fuels have greater MBT spark advance values vs majority gasoline fuels.

Sooo, you can keep your anecdotes on this one. If you aren't picking up more than 1-2hp per degree advance it's likely you are already at or past MBT.. which will almost never happen in these cars on pump gas to begin with. The SAE papers willI tell you that too. E85 requires more timing under most conditions. At lambda values richer than 0.8 it actually burns slower under load than gasoline too. Even then it will still take longer to form a flame kernel.

Speaking of anecdotes.. I've managed to keep this stock rod/piston engine alive for 6 years now while making more than triple what it was ever intended to and being beat on for extended periods.

Yet plenty of "tuners" who never re-evaluate their own beliefs around here manage to grenade built blocks at 75% as much power.

I'll keep listening to the folks at the SAE and MIT, thanks. Seems to serve me well.

 

[Boostdriven]

Am I just an complete idiot or is this just ####ing horrible. I wish he would have saved a log so I could show it. 91 pump gas 4th gear pulls. 27psi. 15* of knock with 0* of timing. Ummm doesn't that mean you need higher octane or to turn the boost down? That is how it was left. How many of yall have had to run through two gears on the dyno?

Couple things you need to check. Is your base timing set correctly? It should be set to 5* you can ground it through ECMLing to set it. If your base timing is advanced a # of degrees then that # will be added to the # generated by the ECU and the engine will run more timing then you can see in your log.
Another thing is you need to make sure that your cams are degreed to the specs on the cam card. With the cams you have you should see about 10 inches of vacuum at a 1000 rpms. In most cases cams will need few degrees of adjustment, part of that will depend on the head gasket thickness and how much the head and block been shaved.

The air/fuel ratios from the dyno sheet indicate that there is a problem and its either with the tuner or the mechanical aspect of your setup. If the VE values are increased and no fuel has been added then you might have a fuel pressure drop at higher rpms. If you don't have a fuel gauge in the car then any place that has a dyno should have a fuel pressure tester gauge.

I'm sure that few of the guys you already contacted will be able to help you but if you don't mind email me a log so I can look over your settings or you can save your settings and send me that. If I see something that stands out I'll let you know. Good luck with your car, it will be fun to drive once its tuned properly.

 

[c2ypt1c]

Couple things you need to check. Is your base timing set correctly? It should be set to 5* you can ground it through ECMLing to set it. If your base timing is advanced a # of degrees then that # will be added to the # generated by the ECU and the engine will run more timing then you can see in your log.

You can't adjust base timing on a 2g...unless you have a 1g cas.

 

[lbz34]

I don't understand y so many DSMers are so reliant on the knock sensors? Is it a new tuner thing? I mean if you are rich, low timing and you are seeing knock obviously the knock sensor is wrong. Now I am assuming boost is reasonable. I would have to attribute it to new tuners, with that being said this car was tuned at a shop, I would expect them to have a handle on things if they are charging people to tune their cars. That is why I would suspect there may be something else going on with the car, or the shop is just not experienced enough to be tuning cars for $$. I see a lot of that kind of "shop" today. Lots of "tooners".

 

[c2ypt1c]

I don't understand y so many DSMers are so reliant on the knock sensors?

I think you're either mistaken or confused...we don't RELY on the knock sensor, it's essentially used as a sanity check as well as a fail safe. That said, it does help street "tooners" (nice condescension) because they don't have access to a dyno and can't see every single ft/lb that's added when timing is advanced.

Not to mention the knock sensor pulls timing, whether it's legitimate or phantom knock, so you can't just blatantly ignore knock retard. No offense but that's retarded What you can do, if you have (dsm|ecm)link, is activate the knock sensor based on user-defined parameters such as rpm and tps, which is what most DSMers do.

 

[killercolt]

As a physical fact of how they burn.. under high load/high rpm, majority ethanol fuels have greater MBT spark advance values vs majority gasoline fuels.

Sooo, you can keep your anecdotes on this one. If you aren't picking up more than 1-2hp per degree advance it's likely you are already at or past MBT.. which will almost never happen in these cars on pump gas to begin with. The SAE papers willI tell you that too. E85 requires more timing under most conditions. At lambda values richer than 0.8 it actually burns slower under load than gasoline too. Even then it will still take longer to form a flame kernel.

Speaking of anecdotes.. I've managed to keep this stock rod/piston engine alive for 6 years now while making more than triple what it was ever intended to and being beat on for extended periods.

Yet plenty of "tuners" who never re-evaluate their own beliefs around here manage to grenade built blocks at 75% as much power.

I'll keep listening to the folks at the SAE and MIT, thanks. Seems to serve me well.

I am not saying that alcohol type fuel can not take more timing. I am saying that the gain can be insignificant and the excessive timing can make the car prone to detonation with change in boost and iat. I got hundreds if not over 1000 of dyno hours under my belt and tunes many cars for people to make anecdotal statements like I did. I tuned 2g 7 bolts engines to over 500hp and 400tq. I built and tuned many stock rods and pistons engines to over 500hp and 400tq. I tuned weak engines like stock b, k and d series to over 350hp. I believe I can make some bold claims with confident because I have not grenade a single one.

Yes I can make more but I am not about to deal with a guy acting like a hoe bag if I grenade his engine with timing number that he believes the engine can take. I got a timing value for the fuel type and boost level. They love to look at my laptop and tell me what timing number to put in into the map. If a guy wants me to push the engine beyond my conservative settings, I automatic remind him of signed dyno disclaimer form and tell him there will be a 50 bux clean up fee. My friend at the dyno love to tuned aggressive to please the car owners. He grenade a few engines over the years. His friendly customers turned into hoe bag customers real quick when their engines grenade. I rather they go around complaining that I am a bi*** tuner than to claim I blew their engines. I am going to let their so called great tuners take the risk of blowing their engines up.

 

[Boostdriven]

You can't adjust base timing on a 2g...unless you have a 1g cas.

I didn't think about that, I guess I'm just used to dealing with 6 bolts. Good point

 

[killercolt]

I don't understand y so many DSMers are so reliant on the knock sensors? Is it a new tuner thing? I mean if you are rich, low timing and you are seeing knock obviously the knock sensor is wrong. Now I am assuming boost is reasonable. I would have to attribute it to new tuners, with that being said this car was tuned at a shop, I would expect them to have a handle on things if they are charging people to tune their cars. That is why I would suspect there may be something else going on with the car, or the shop is just not experienced enough to be tuning cars for $$. I see a lot of that kind of "shop" today. Lots of "tooners".

In a perfect world, every shop will know how to navigate every engine management systems out there. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Maybe the shop that he went to is not familiar with Ecmlink. We will never know for sure.