Holset turbo without BEP Housing?

[LandSpeed-DSM]

As promised here is the proof that HX35s are not laggy, I got my car running finally with an 8 blade hx35 and a single scroll eBay manifold and with stock cams in the higher gears I can hit a full 30lbs usually right at 3800-4000, starts boosting at like 3400-3500, so a single scroll mani on a 12cm twin scroll hx is not that laggy for a proven 500+awhp setup

Post a log, and use specifics... like which gear you hit x psi boost @ y rpm.

Otherwise its not proof of any sort.

 

[sexystover]

Post a log, and use specifics... like which gear you hit x psi boost @ y rpm.

Otherwise its not proof of any sort.

x2 im sceptical, im running an hx35 in the stock 12cm^2 housing on an ebay non divided t3 manifold and i dont see full boost (12psi currently) till 4500ish

 

[abaum565]

Full T3 TS on a billet 6blade hx40 here and the flow and spool is great! I made the HP in my avatar with this setup on e85. 30psi by 4150k or something like that, and almost 38psi shortly after.

Also, as said before this thread is ridiculous!

 

[bastarddsm]

IMHO, the 100% best holset setup is a HY35/HE341/HE351 on a turbonetics manifold. It is a nice tight fitting package that allows use of stock cooling fans. The stock holset internal wg can be used and holds boost great. They are throw away turbos to most.

Right now I am running a HY35 on a tnetics mani. I use the stock holset internal gate. I'm running 35psi, and it holds it rock solid from 4600RPM to 9000 in 3rd. After ditching a 2g maf and going SD, I'm seeing about 67lbs/min out of this little guy! I'm making 604whp, and its over 500 whp from 5500-9500RPM. Talk about a powerband! I made 530whp and trapped 130.5 on it with the 2g maf restricting it all to hell ! As soon as I get my room at school setup I can pull of a dyno sheet on my tuning laptop, and compare it to the t/s HX35 stuff. I expect to be making near the same amount down low, but with way more up top.

Some felt that the HY35 didn't have enough turbine wheel for the 7 blade compressore wheel, I think its more than enough. The HY turbine exducer is onle 2mm smaller, and its MUCH newer tecnology. It is still bigger than what would be on a garret turbo of similar size.

I feel that there is no reason to run any other holset turbo than the newer ones. They are just that good. Once I get the HY record, I'm gonna stuff a 351 on my car and see how that does.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Those are excellent flow numbers, for comparison I was getting 65-67lbs/min out of my S200sx-59 (80/74) in the big Airwerks T4 Housing with 274/280 at 37-38psi.

Tune was real conservative though.

 

[jmartinez1228]

Are the ebay cast t3 manifolds or the other cheap ones i see on there even worth trying out? Just wondering since I wanted to pickup something quick to install til i can get the funds for a legit manifold/o2 housing setup.

 

[sexystover]

Are the ebay cast t3 manifolds or the other cheap ones i see on there even worth trying out? Just wondering since I wanted to pickup something quick to install til i can get the funds for a legit manifold/o2 housing setup.

idk about cast but the ebay t3 tubular ones almost all either need a spacer on the head side or need to be modified such as i did. i cut a pie cut into the front two runners and bent the flange slightly upwards in the front and rewelded it which put the turbo far enough away so it wouldnt contact the water pipe

 

[bastarddsm]

Are the ebay cast t3 manifolds or the other cheap ones i see on there even worth trying out? Just wondering since I wanted to pickup something quick to install til i can get the funds for a legit manifold/o2 housing setup.

I am running a cast ebay manifold on my car. I had to have the flange on the HY housing angle milled at 2* to clear the block. With a 12cm HX35 housing you will need to run a 1/2" flange between the head and the mani, as well as have the flange angle milled.

Best option is run a hy/he, or get a garret 5 bolt housing machined for the hx turbo. Several people can set you up on here. A .63 AR would probably be the all around best for spool and top end.

If you get the cheap cast one off ebay and get a housing machined, you will have a legit manifold for cheap. I have had mine on for a year, made zillions of passes, and have had no problems. My only complaint is the flange holes are off, and the ports don't match well. But I don't think it matters that much, as it certainly hasn't held me back at all.

 

[jmartinez1228]

I am running a cast ebay manifold on my car. I had to have the flange on the HY housing angle milled at 2* to clear the block. With a 12cm HX35 housing you will need to run a 1/2" flange between the head and the mani, as well as have the flange angle milled.

Best option is run a hy/he, or get a garret 5 bolt housing machined for the hx turbo. Several people can set you up on here. A .63 AR would probably be the all around best for spool and top end.

If you get the cheap cast one off ebay and get a housing machined, you will have a legit manifold for cheap. I have had mine on for a year, made zillions of passes, and have had no problems. My only complaint is the flange holes are off, and the ports don't match well. But I don't think it matters that much, as it certainly hasn't held me back at all.

Thanks for the input guys. Got a more clear mind on these holsets. There is alot to research and I didnt realize how many different configurations there are. After going through the holset guides I was going to just go with a bep but thought it would just be a waste if in the future I decide I want to max the turbo out.

 

[RWD4G63]

IMHO, the 100% best holset setup is a HY35/HE341/HE351 on a turbonetics manifold. It is a nice tight fitting package that allows use of stock cooling fans. The stock holset internal wg can be used and holds boost great. They are throw away turbos to most.

Right now I am running a HY35 on a tnetics mani. I use the stock holset internal gate. I'm running 35psi, and it holds it rock solid from 4600RPM to 9000 in 3rd. After ditching a 2g maf and going SD, I'm seeing about 67lbs/min out of this little guy! I'm making 604whp, and its over 500 whp from 5500-9500RPM. Talk about a powerband! I made 530whp and trapped 130.5 on it with the 2g maf restricting it all to hell ! As soon as I get my room at school setup I can pull of a dyno sheet on my tuning laptop, and compare it to the t/s HX35 stuff. I expect to be making near the same amount down low, but with way more up top.

Some felt that the HY35 didn't have enough turbine wheel for the 7 blade compressore wheel, I think its more than enough. The HY turbine exducer is onle 2mm smaller, and its MUCH newer tecnology. It is still bigger than what would be on a garret turbo of similar size.

I feel that there is no reason to run any other holset turbo than the newer ones. They are just that good. Once I get the HY record, I'm gonna stuff a 351 on my car and see how that does.

I would definitely like to see your dyno sheet.

 

[crash89]

Some of you see some pretty damn good spool times. I see 23 psi by 4300rpm on my t/s 12cm hx35. Peepers sees insane spool because of his smaller diameter custom manifold.. And just like Justin and others have said the BEP housing is for convenience and price. Not everyone has the money and/or skills/tools to buy an expensive manifold then make an exhaust for said housing. Whether it be vband or stock flanged..

 

[RWD4G63]

I've never seen that slow of spool with a TS setup. Are you on a really conservative tune? Do you have a MBC?

My friends evo with Kelford 272's and 1.5inch manifold runners still makes 30psi by 3800 in third, 3500 in fourth. And his car isn't perfectly tuned.

I'm hoping to break the 500whp mark with my 2.3 and TS hx35 soon. I'm very curious what my spool will be like and might even try a 14cm2 housing after I get everything broken in to see if provides any gains up top.

I'll be using a 1.5in runner manifold and an hx35 converted to T4 twin-scroll.

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[Mr Peepers]

Pump gas and e85 may also be a factor Tom(Crash89), but overall there is a definite difference. I had a few PM's back and forth with an SR20 guy about twin scroll hx35 setups and it seems like the smaller diameter primaries may be part of why my car spools so well. The difference between my car and a friend's e85 .55 BEP HX35 is also night and day. *shrug*

Glad to hear your making great progress with power and trap speeds, bastarddsm!

 

[Tiki2777]

Pump gas and e85 may also be a factor Tom(Crash89), but overall there is a definite difference. I had a few PM's back and forth with an SR20 guy about twin scroll hx35 setups and it seems like the smaller diameter primaries may be part of why my car spools so well. The difference between my car and a friend's e85 .55 BEP HX35 is also night and day. *shrug*

Glad to hear your making great progress with power and trap speeds, bastarddsm!

What size tubing did you use for each cylinder from the head to turbo flanges? Did you measure to get "equal length" or did you do something else? Thanks

 

[crash89]

I've never seen that slow of spool with a TS setup. Are you on a really conservative tune? Do you have a MBC?

Yes very conservative, 13* peak timing and 21 psi. Saw 40lb/m air flow.. We were reading a ton of knock at the time that turned out to be rod knock so we couldnt up the boost.. And yes I have a Hallman MBC.

 

[tkelly27]

I don't mean to speak for Peepers, but I'm pretty sure he uses 1 1/4 sch 40 mild steel pipes fittings. At least that's what he was going to use when I talked with him about making it.

A friend's car used 1 1/2 sch 40 mild steel pipe and that got up to full boost (25psi) right around 4k as well. It was a top mount design. I think the 3" to 4" tapered cone to a diesel stack through the hood and the full 4" intake tube to 6" air filter with a 6" to 4" bell mouth had something to do with helping spool up on that setup. That car was crazy to ride in as the passenger with the diesel stack pointing right at your face .

I don't see any reason to go with either pipe over the other at this point, so I'll probably run what I have for the DSM since I have so much room and so much 1 1/2. Will run 1 1/4 primaries into 1 1/2 secondaries on my van. I think the primary concern is that the collectors aren't doing a sharp 90 degree turn at the same time like the stock manifold. Not that the stock or any variant of the stock manifold (E3, FP) are bad, they are wonderful. If you want to make it better, the collector(s) and keeping 1/4 and 2/3 paired and separate is where it is at.

Answering the original question: you're not getting as much out of your Holset as you could be if you're not using a divided T3 Holset housing. If it means the difference between getting to drive your car with the Holset now, or having to wait another year, go ahead and pop it on with the BEP. The TS mani and housing will look fine on the shelf.

For me, it's cheaper to build a manifold than it is to get the BEP housing. Lucky me : D

 

[bastarddsm]

Pump gas and e85 may also be a factor Tom(Crash89), but overall there is a definite difference. I had a few PM's back and forth with an SR20 guy about twin scroll hx35 setups and it seems like the smaller diameter primaries may be part of why my car spools so well. The difference between my car and a friend's e85 .55 BEP HX35 is also night and day. *shrug*

Glad to hear your making great progress with power and trap speeds, bastarddsm!

Thanks, Matt. Going from 121 to 130 was quite a task, but it is certainly progressing well now. I'm pretty certain the small primaries are key for low RPM spool as the small diameter keep the velocity up and then energy in the exhaust gas. last year I made a twin scroll manifold using an old non turbo header, the primaries were around 1.75, and the spool was pretty slow. like 30 PSI at 4500, barely better than old SFP T4 header and adapter plate on a 12cm housing. I do prefer my current setup to a twin scroll one though. it's spools in about the same yet seems to have way more top end. I kind of wonder how a small primary open header would work.

I don't mean to speak for Peepers, but I'm pretty sure he uses 1 1/4 sch 40 mild steel pipes fittings. At least that's what he was going to use when I talked with him about making it.

A friend's car used 1 1/2 sch 40 mild steel pipe and that got up to full boost (25psi) right around 4k as well. It was a top mount design. I think the 3" to 4" tapered cone to a diesel stack through the hood and the full 4" intake tube to 6" air filter with a 6" to 4" bell mouth had something to do with helping spool up on that setup. That car was crazy to ride in as the passenger with the diesel stack pointing right at your face .

I don't see any reason to go with either pipe over the other at this point, so I'll probably run what I have for the DSM since I have so much room and so much 1 1/2" and run 1 1/4" primaries into 1 1/2" secondaries on my van. I think the primary concern is that the collectors aren't doing a sharp 90 degree turn at the same time like the stock manifold. Not that the stock or any variant of the stock manifold (E3, FP) are bad, they are wonderful. If you want to make it better, the collector(s) and keeping 1/4 and 2/3 paired and separate is where it is at.

Answering the original question: you're not getting as much out of your Holset as you could be if you're not using a divided T3 Holset housing. If it means the difference between getting to drive your car with the Holset now, or having to wait another year, go ahead and pop it on with the BEP. The TS mani and housing will look fine on the shelf.

For me, it's cheaper to build a manifold than it is to get the BEP housing. Lucky me : D

 

[JusMX141]

For anyone considering a budget single-scroll T3 turbo, the HY35 is where it's at. This was done with a sub-$200 turbo in a full-weight 2G on pump gas one week ago:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/444679-4g63awdhonda-holset-hy35-10-71-2012-shootout.html

 

[RWD4G63]

Still waiting on that dyno bastarddsm...

 

[MightyMax88]

Thanks, Matt. Going from 121 to 130 was quite a task, but it is certainly progressing well now. I'm pretty certain the small primaries are key for low RPM spool as the small diameter keep the velocity up and then energy in the exhaust gas. last year I made a twin scroll manifold using an old non turbo header, the primaries were around 1.75, and the spool was pretty slow. like 30 PSI at 4500, barely better than old SFP T4 header and adapter plate on a 12cm housing. I do prefer my current setup to a twin scroll one though. it's spools in about the same yet seems to have way more top end. I kind of wonder how a small primary open header would work.

Off topic I know, but are you the same BastardDSM on LS1Tech? Need to get some more videos out there if you are

 

[Boostdriven]

As I was reading through this post I noticed some of you say that you see an upwards of like 67 lb/min on a hx35 turbos. I might be wrong but I don't see how a turbo that size can push that much air. Holset hx40 6 blade 60mm/86mm is rated at 69 lb/min and that is subject to change depending on the exhaust housing you run.

I think the reason why some of you see such high lb/min is because you have your boost estimate off in relationship to actual boost. I run 4 315cc water/meth nozzles directly in to manifold runners and now dew to the fact that I'm pushing so much fuel/meth in to the motor I had to bring down my VE values to get the right air/fuel ratios, now my boost estimate at 8k is about 5-7 psi less then the actual boost and I'm only logging like 54 lb/min on a hx40 6 blade at 30-31 psi as to where before when I had my boost estimate almost right on with the actual boost I was seeing something like 63-65 lb/min.

Right now I have a bep t3 .70 a/r housing and it works just fine but at one point I did switch to a stock twin scroll t3 16cm2 housing using a non divided manifold and I lost about 200-300 rpm in spool up but my exhaust pressure dropped 2-3 pounds and car pulled stronger past 8000 rpms.

 

[ceedawg]

Right now I have a bep t3 .70 a/r housing and it works just fine but at one point I did switch to a stock twin scroll t3 16cm2 housing using a non divided manifold and I lost about 200-300 rpm in spool up but my exhaust pressure dropped 2-3 pounds and car pulled stronger past 8000 rpms.

Interesting! I know this is a lil off topic but I wonder if the spool on the 16cm2 housing would have had the same power effect upstairs with a proper twin scroll mani? The 16cm2 housing is quite big.

 

[black_gst]

interesting! I know this is a lil off topic but i wonder if the spool on the 16cm2 housing would have had the same power effect upstairs with a proper twin scroll mani? The 16cm2 housing is quite big.

go with the 12cm2 housing! Even better!

Thats what im running on my 7 blade hx35

 

[Boostdriven]

For an hx35 12cm2 would work just fine, my brother runs a twin scroll 12cm2 on his car and gets full boost (27 psi) by 3800 on a 6 bolt with stock cams and 2g pistons with a non divided manifold. That may vary on your car depending on a size compressor wheel you have.
16cm2 is a factory housing for a hx40, I don't think hx40 came with a smaller housing then that, maybe a 14cm2 but not 12cm2

 

[black_gst]

For an hx35 12cm2 would work just fine, my brother runs a twin scroll 12cm2 on his car and gets full boost (27 psi) by 3800 on a 6 bolt with stock cams and 2g pistons with a non divided manifold. That may vary on your car depending on a size compressor wheel you have.
16cm2 is a factory housing for a hx40, I don't think hx40 came with a smaller housing then that, maybe a 14cm2 but not 12cm2

you can machine a 12cm2 HX35 housing to fit a HX40!