hits about 5k rpm, the car falls flat on its face

[jmatyas]

ok. so here we go again. So here is the problem. When i get on the gas and the turbo spools up and the car hits about 5k rpm, the car falls flat on its face and acts as though there is no turbo in the car. As though the boost was never there, but up till about 4,500 to 5k the boost and everything is fine.

I took it down to a dyno shop and this shows how bad it is. I dyno'd at 105hp with 155 torque. !!!! I had it at there shop for 6 hours today and everyone there was at a loss of words. We checked everything. boost leak... none, hoses in place and new. yes. I have no idea of what to do.

Come on my dsm friends. help me figure this out before i dump it off at the junkyard.

Oh also in case your wondering this is all that has been replaced. o2, maf, timing belt, boost leak test, fuel pressure, spark plugs and wires twice, over $4500 in replacement parts and labor has gone into this car....and its just almost stock... im about the cry...

 

[jmatyas]

Your the lucky 100th poster

im actually aiming for around 350-400whp. i bought the mbc thinking it might help with the fuel problem that im still having. my bad. Im going to try to take it down to the dyno tomorrow to see how much of a diff the new ecu really did help. not to run it hard but to watch and see how its running. hopefully well be able to see whats going on still. also i met up with someone that can do a smoke blt that will 100% show me where the leaks are if any. im just trying to figure this out piece by piece.

and by a wideband o2 is that a ported housing or what do you mean by that? sorry im still learning as i go.

 

[Artago]

the engine is a 6bolt not the stock 7bolt

What makes you say that?

 

[Artago]

Your the lucky 100th poster

im actually aiming for around 350-400whp. i bought the mbc thinking it might help with the fuel problem that im still having. my bad. Im going to try to take it down to the dyno tomorrow to see how much of a diff the new ecu really did help. not to run it hard but to watch and see how its running. hopefully well be able to see whats going on still. also i met up with someone that can do a smoke blt that will 100% show me where the leaks are if any. im just trying to figure this out piece by piece.

and by a wideband o2 is that a ported housing or what do you mean by that? sorry im still learning as i go.

It's an Oxygen sensor, but a much more accurate one then the stock version. I would start reading everything you can.

I have this sensor / guage combo:

EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - AEM Six-In-One Gauge-Type Wideband UEGO Controller *Limited Time Sale!*

If your goal is 350-400 then I suggest DSMlink since you have EPROM already.

But we are getting ahead of out selves.

When you get dynoed, ask for the logs (like the O2 wideband logs) and post them here.

But before you get dynoed and spend a bunch of money on that and smoke BLT, GET A 1G BOV!!!! 2G BOV's ARE CRAP!

Tom

 

[spawn87]

What makes you say that?

like i said i may be wrong.

but the engine gas the green top CAS on the passage side the 2g 7 bolt dont have that

plus the radiator is not the stock 2g turbo radiator.

 

[Artago]

like i said i may be wrong.

but the engine gas the green top CAS on the passage side the 2g 7 bolt dont have that

plus the radiator is not the stock 2g turbo radiator.

I was looking for the CAS in the picture but I can't see it.

jmatyas: Can you take a few close up shots of the passenger side of the head so we can see if you have a CAS.

Tom

 

[joescool2008]

Thats a 7 bolt.

 

[Artago]

Thats a 7 bolt.

That's what it looks like to me.

 

[spawn87]

well like i said i hope im wrong or else this thread could of been solved a long time ago but it would be no fun or beneficial to others ... they reason i say its a six bolt is because of the radiator and the engine hook bracket that is next to where the CAS is or should be... as far as my knowledge goes 2g 7bolt dont have that bracket at least not the ones ive dealt with...


on a different note i was wondering abt the firing order so i decided to go look at my car to see if that could be the reason for lack of top-end and the way it was set up was 4123 rather than the 3214 that 95s should have ( according to what ive read here). im going to try to change it also and let you guys know if that was it

 

[spawn87]

well i tryed the firing order change on my car to 3214 and the car would not start so i put it back to the 4123 setting... what im wondering is why it worked on jmatyas's car... since we have the same ecu what is different?

 

[doctor_shock10]

hey man it really sounds like a boost leak, i blocked off my egr valve and got rid of all my vaccum lines and my problem stopped, with that said im not saying thats your problem but it would def help you in checking thsat off your problems check.

 

[Artago]

hey man it really sounds like a boost leak, i blocked off my egr valve and got rid of all my vaccum lines and my problem stopped, with that said im not saying thats your problem but it would def help you in checking thsat off your problems check.

Yeah, I've been saying that from day 1 but the op says there are no leaks. I personally find that hard to believe, but hey, whatever.

The EGR valve, and solenoid are good things to check. The TB is another good place. Common leaks are in the FIAV and TB shaft seal (I'll wager $5 to $0 that the TB shaft seals are leaking, hell if they've never been replaced I'll wager my pink slip vs a stick of gum that they are leaking).

OP: How are you performing the BLT? Throttle plate open or closed (it should be open)? PCV blocked? MBC blocked? All hoses from IM to guages, solenoid, etc should be blocked. Do you hear any hissing around the TB area. Use a soapy water spray to identify leaks visually. I'd suggest rebuild thing TB if you find leaks. And if you are going to do that they do a EGR block off and FIAV bypass. You'll need:

EGR block plate
EGR gasket
FIAV bypass plate
FIAV seal
TB shaft seals (get oem)
TB gaskets (there are two of them, one pre-TB and one post-TB)

Can anyone list anything I'm missing in this list for a TB rebuild and seal?

If you decided to rebuild it, I know a good place to get cheap EGR block and FIAV bypass plates, they even have the seals and gaskets.

Tom

 

[Artago]

Found it:

Level Zero Motorsports

Tom

 

[jmatyas]

Hey guys sorry it took me a day to write back. the blt test was done both open and closed tb. But i do believe as well that it has to be a boost leak. im going to take it down to the shop tomorrow to do a better blt. getting a great deal on the smoke test . that will be the best way to see where the leak is coming from. Also hard piping is on its way very soon so that will allow me to go to the 1g bov. WOOT! .

Installed a new boost gauge so i can be sure its running ok and not overboosting. so far it stays just under 14psi when it hits full boost. i was able to push it to 6500rpm last night without loosing power once. ive noticed if i go only half throttle itll go all out. but if i slam it to the floor it just bogs out like i said. which still makes me believe it is a boost leak but we just need to find where the damn leak is .

im in a much better mood about the car now. thanks again to all that have really helped me out so far. i just wanted to say you guys are the best. special thanks to Artago for you non stop fact and info. really...thank you.

 

[rocafellafw]

Yeah, I've been saying that from day 1 but the op says there are no leaks. I personally find that hard to believe, but hey, whatever.

The EGR valve, and solenoid are good things to check. The TB is another good place. Common leaks are in the FIAV and TB shaft seal (I'll wager $5 to $0 that the TB shaft seals are leaking, hell if they've never been replaced I'll wager my pink slip vs a stick of gum that they are leaking).

OP: How are you performing the BLT? Throttle plate open or closed (it should be open)? PCV blocked? MBC blocked? All hoses from IM to guages, solenoid, etc should be blocked. Do you hear any hissing around the TB area. Use a soapy water spray to identify leaks visually. I'd suggest rebuild thing TB if you find leaks. And if you are going to do that they do a EGR block off and FIAV bypass. You'll need:

EGR block plate
EGR gasket
FIAV bypass plate
FIAV seal
TB shaft seals (get oem)
TB gaskets (there are two of them, one pre-TB and one post-TB)

Can anyone list anything I'm missing in this list for a TB rebuild and seal?

If you decided to rebuild it, I know a good place to get cheap EGR block and FIAV bypass plates, they even have the seals and gaskets.

Tom

Sorry to budge in but I'm doing a TB rebuild. I had no problem ordering everything besides the TB gaskets (pre tb & post) Which of the 3 out of the selection do I pick if I have a 2g TB and a 1G Intake Manifold ?
EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - OEM Throttle Body to Throttle Body Elbow Gasket : Mitsubishi Eclipse 90-99

and

EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - OEM Throttle Body to Intake Manifold Gasket : Mitsubishi Eclipse 90-99

 

[rush2252]

To the previous comment about the OP's being a 6 bolt.. its not the 2gbs 97-99 have a sensor on the valve cover similar to the CAS on the 6bolts. Yours and my 95 do not. This is how all 2gb's are.

As for the car not running good at WOT i think you will find your boost leak is in the BOV. If you still running the 2g stocker on 14psi your losing about 1/2 of your intake charge back through the recirc.

Kolby

 

[jmatyas]

Thats what i was thinking about the 2g bov. I need to switch it over to a 1g but i dont want to unless it includes hard piping. Which cost more $$ . But soon ill have it on there. The other downside is i would love to just switch it all with a fmic from punishment racing, but i would have to also buy my 16g and new manifold. which i just dont have the money for atm.

Tripple piller pod is going in with boost/vacuume, air/fuel, oil pressure. also had my dad fab a new radio gauge pod (he ownes his own muscle car shop in cali) for 2 52mm gauges to go under the radio. i saw the one on glowshifts website but i like the black metal look better which is all one piece. ill be sure to put up pics. which will hold my water temp and new wideband o2 gauge. These are all in the mail atm so soon it will happen.

Shadow is finally comming together and starting to run alot better. I think this new fpr and boost leak fix will be the last of the bad problems. Shadow is back baby!!!

 

[Artago]

Hey guys sorry it took me a day to write back. the blt test was done both open and closed tb. But i do believe as well that it has to be a boost leak. im going to take it down to the shop tomorrow to do a better blt. getting a great deal on the smoke test . that will be the best way to see where the leak is coming fromNot necessarily, you could be leaking internally in which case you don't see it. Also hard piping is on its way very soon so that will allow me to go to the 1g bov. WOOT! .

Installed a new boost gauge so i can be sure its running ok and not overboosting. so far it stays just under 14psi when it hits full boost. i was able to push it to 6500rpm last night without loosing power once. ive noticed if i go only half throttle itll go all out. but if i slam it to the floor it just bogs out like i said. which still makes me believe it is a boost leak but we just need to find where the damn leak is .This is at the throttle body shaft seals. I suggest you rebuild the throttle body with new seals..... see my earlier post. When you "slam" it to floor it torques the TB shaft and creates a leak around the seal. this only occurs at WOT

im in a much better mood about the car now. thanks again to all that have really helped me out so far. i just wanted to say you guys are the best. special thanks to Artago for you non stop fact and info. really...thank you.Thank buddy, I appreciate it. FYI: We have this set up for people who provide good info/help http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/reputation-recommendations/ hint hitn nudge nudge

As for the car not running good at WOT i think you will find your boost leak is in the BOV. If you still running the 2g stocker on 14psi your losing about 1/2 of your intake charge back through the recirc. Yup 2G BOVs consistently leak starting around 8 PSI. OP say's he's getting a 1G which will hold 16-18 PSI easily unmodded and more if you crush is (I don't recommend it) or Dodge Garage Mod (this is the way to go, and I'll be doing mine soon)

Kolby

Thats what i was thinking about the 2g bov. I need to switch it over to a 1g but i dont want to unless it includes hard piping. Which cost more $$ . But soon ill have it on there. The other downside is i would love to just switch it all with a fmic from punishment racing How much do they go for? Cause the eBay FMIC's are just as good and you can get them for $350 shipped with piping and all, but i would have to also buy my 16g and new manifoldActually, all you need is ANY down firing turbo and you can KEEP you stock manifold for now. which i just dont have the money for atm. STOP spending money at the shop, you might as well flush it down the toilet. Do the work yourself, you'll get more done, save money, and learn about your car in the process

Tripple piller pod is going in with boost/vacuume, air/fuel, oil pressure. also had my dad fab a new radio gauge pod (he ownes his own muscle car shop in cali) for 2 52mm gauges to go under the radio. i saw the one on glowshifts website but i like the black metal look better which is all one piece. ill be sure to put up pics. which will hold my water temp and new wideband o2 gauge. These are all in the mail atm so soon it will happen. You getting an oil pressure guage too? I would suggest you get that as well.

Shadow is finally comming together and starting to run alot better. I think this new fpr and boost leak fix will be the last of the bad problems. Shadow is back baby!!!

Woo hoo, congrats bud. Keep at it and don't give up.

Tom

 

[Artago]

Sorry to budge in but I'm doing a TB rebuild. I had no problem ordering everything besides the TB gaskets (pre tb & post) Which of the 3 out of the selection do I pick if I have a 2g TB and a 1G Intake Manifold ?
EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - OEM Throttle Body to Throttle Body Elbow Gasket : Mitsubishi Eclipse 90-99

and

EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - OEM Throttle Body to Intake Manifold Gasket : Mitsubishi Eclipse 90-99

MD302262 for the TB to elbow.

And for the other one I don't know but I think the MD146399 but I'm not sure. I have a 2G IM. If it was me I'd get the MD146399 AND the MD184046 just to be sure. I hate waiting on parts. Get both and see which one works best.

If you don't want to waste the extra $4.50 then you'll have to ask someone who is using a 1G IM in a 2G car with a 2G TB like you. I simple don't know because I have a different configuration.

Tom

 

[rocafellafw]

Thanks, but nvm I just ended up dropping a dime on a rebuilt 1g TB instead of rebuilding my small 2g TB.

Glad to see Shadows running good. Now I gotta get mine running strong, found some TB leaks (which is why I bought the 1g TB) and doing a FIAV block off. If that and replacing my knock sensor does not work, I'm going E-prom like you did .

 

[jmatyas]

happy my thread has helped a few others. I havent had anytime to work on the car sadly, finally getting more hours at work which is great, but next week ill have a few days off and ill deff keep this thread going. Ill update as i go along. Oh and speaking of which....i have a new problem....at least it sounds like it.

i was driving next to a wall heading to work today and as my turbo spooled it sounded like a meat grinder. sounded like the bearing was shot to hell. but when i sat in the parking lot and got on it under the hood it didnt sound too bad. but i do have a good amount of an oily substance in the intercooler piping so maybe my turbo is going out. if it is then welcome my new 16g . if not ill be happy because i wont have to spend any more money that i dont have .

also im doing alot of the work myself. the shop i take my car down to charges me next to nothing. was down there the last time and they only charged me $60 for 8 dyno runs and 4 hours of testing to see what was going wrong with the car. We didnt find anything that day of course but hey they could of charged me a ton more .

 

[Artago]

happy my thread has helped a few others. I havent had anytime to work on the car sadly, finally getting more hours at work which is great, but next week ill have a few days off and ill deff keep this thread going. Ill update as i go along. Oh and speaking of which....i have a new problem....at least it sounds like it.

i was driving next to a wall heading to work today and as my turbo spooled it sounded like a meat grinder. sounded like the bearing was shot to hell. but when i sat in the parking lot and got on it under the hood it didnt sound too bad. but i do have a good amount of an oily substance in the intercooler piping so maybe my turbo is going out. if it is then welcome my new 16g . if not ill be happy because i wont have to spend any more money that i dont have . that sucks. oil in Intercooler usually means shot turbo. Maybe all those 5-6K RPM runs took their toll on the little guy if you do get a new turbo run it at 10-12 psi MAX until you get at least a wideband and something to tune with(*cough* dsmlink *cough*).

also im doing alot of the work myself. the shop i take my car down to charges me next to nothing. was down there the last time and they only charged me $60 for 8 dyno runs and 4 hours of testing to see what was going wrong with the car. We didnt find anything that day of course but hey they could of charged me a ton more .

^^ WOW $60 for 8 dyno runs.... wait.... where do you live.... checking.......






Car: 97 Eclipse GST Spyder view photos
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Club Region: Southeast
Online

.....damn.... too far

Seriously, that's sick, the closest place to me charges $180 an hour (canadian $$$, but still)

Cheers,

Tom

 

[Calan]

Tripple piller pod is going in with ... air/fuel...

If you are talking about one of those green/yellow/red blinking AF meters...don't waste your money. They are useless.

The problem is that those meters are showing your AF ratio as it fluctuates around a very narrow range centered around 14.7:1 AFR. Your O2 sensor will swing back and forth across this narrow range during normal closed-loop driving, as the ECU tries to keep your AFR at the optimum mix. (WOT is open-loop). These meters simply follow this swinging O2 sensor voltage; if anything, all they do is tell you your O2 sensor is working...and even that isn't a sure thing

If you want to truly measure your air/fuel ratio, you have to get a wideband O2 sensor. This is a special sensor with an output over a wider voltage range, along with a "brain" that converts the voltage into a readable AFR. The brain outputs this signal to a meter, or on a wire that can be tied into a spare ECU port for logging with DSMLink and other loggers.

...turbo spooled it sounded like a meat grinder. sounded like the bearing was shot to hell. but when i sat in the parking lot and got on it under the hood it didnt sound too bad. but i do have a good amount of an oily substance in the intercooler piping so maybe my turbo is going out. if it is then welcome my new 16g ...

If your turbo is going out, replace it; don't wait for it to grenade so you can justify the new one. If it does finally come apart at 100,000 rpm...guess where all those little pieces are gonna go?

 

[habitatguy187]

If your turbo is going out, replace it; don't wait for it to grenade so you can justify the new one. If it does finally come apart at 100,000 rpm...guess where all those little pieces are gonna go?

+1, a buddy of mine thinks that it's ok to drive around with his compressor wheel scraping the housing. But he's a hardhead so what can I do?

 

[jmatyas]

the guys at the shop are just the type that they mean business but they also just love to be around and work on cars. so they just charge you what they feel that they really actually helped with. the 8 dyno runs were to see if we could find a solution, since we didnt they only charged me for one. the 4 hours of work on the car was only for blt and other tests to find a solution. no solution found so they charged me only a 30min fee. which i will totally agree with .

but yea i will deff go ahead and buy a new turbo on my next check. it pulls boost great but it sounds like a grinder. sigh. is 50kish miles normal for a turbo replacment? also whoever had the car before me i think raced it and didnt know what he was doing.

One last thing. I know i could find a vfaq on what all it takes to put a 16g in my car. But i want to hear it from you guys. what steps should i take and what all do i need? i saw a ebay/punishment turbo/manifold/fmic for around $700 which isnt too bad of a deal. it has everything i think i need but hey im still learning.

Eclipse Talon Turbo Intercooler Upgrad Kit TD05 16G DSM:eBay Motors (item 140319588940 end time May-15-09 17:31:52 PDT)

thats the link to the kit i was talking about. MORE POWER..grunt...grunt...GRUNT!!! . this would easily get me 350whp

 

[Artago]

^^ Yeah, I'd stay away from eBay when buying turbos. You never know what Chinese knock off you are getting.