hits about 5k rpm, the car falls flat on its face

[jmatyas]

ok. so here we go again. So here is the problem. When i get on the gas and the turbo spools up and the car hits about 5k rpm, the car falls flat on its face and acts as though there is no turbo in the car. As though the boost was never there, but up till about 4,500 to 5k the boost and everything is fine.

I took it down to a dyno shop and this shows how bad it is. I dyno'd at 105hp with 155 torque. !!!! I had it at there shop for 6 hours today and everyone there was at a loss of words. We checked everything. boost leak... none, hoses in place and new. yes. I have no idea of what to do.

Come on my dsm friends. help me figure this out before i dump it off at the junkyard.

Oh also in case your wondering this is all that has been replaced. o2, maf, timing belt, boost leak test, fuel pressure, spark plugs and wires twice, over $4500 in replacement parts and labor has gone into this car....and its just almost stock... im about the cry...

 

[jmatyas]

never thought of that. ill go ahead and check that asap. i just replaced my valve cover but i didnt check the rockers. everthing looked in check but hey you never know .

 

[rocafellafw]

never thought of that. ill go ahead and check that asap. i just replaced my valve cover but i didnt check the rockers. everthing looked in check but hey you never know .

Let me know how that goes, I'm still using this thread as a guide since I'm having the same problem .

 

[jmatyas]

so i went out and checked for it to be just a rocker. all checked and not a single one lose or broken. sigh. im getting my ecu tomorrow so ill have it on by monday or tuesday to see if thats what it was. if not hey at least i now have my 2g eprom .

all that keeps going through my mind is that its getting too much fuel... and there is only a hand full of things that would cause this, and with most being tested and non of them being the answer...it has to be a bad ecu or maybe stuck in limp mode. who knows.

 

[DSMTriad]

I found half of my problem a big boost leak, my LIC hose wasn't tight on the IC. The clamp rusted off. Now on to find the reason for my whistling and glowing turbo.

 

[techghost]

I was having almost the same problem and was stumped. i changed FP, Fuel Filter, Cleaned injectors, fuel rail, ECU, plugs, plug wires, FRP, checked boost leaks, vaccums almost everything. and it turned out to be my injectors which i replaced today and now the car revs perfectly

 

[95eclipseSlow]

make sure to keep us updated. I too am having a similar issue. I am curious to see if it was the ecu.

 

[jmatyas]

update #3!!!!
let me start with this....
new ecu... $200
new fpr... $35
new mbc... $25

knowing that your car still runs like s**t....priceless. for everone else... its just another broken dsm.
sorry i had to.

but yea new ecu wouldnt even let the car start. it just kept trying to turn over and never did start. it was really really odd. it is a fully stock working eprom. had it tested before we put it in.

im fully stuck and my last option now is to take it to the dealer i guess. but that is my LAST OPTION!!!
9 months now of working on this and still no answer.....damn.

 

[Artago]

update #3!!!!
let me start with this....
new ecu... $200
new fpr... $35
new mbc... $25

knowing that your car still runs like s**t....priceless. for everone else... its just another broken dsm.
sorry i had to.

but yea new ecu wouldnt even let the car start. it just kept trying to turn over and never did start. it was really really odd. it is a fully stock working eprom. had it tested before we put it in.

im fully stuck and my last option now is to take it to the dealer i guess. but that is my LAST OPTION!!!
9 months now of working on this and still no answer.....damn.

EPROM ecus has a different firing order. Did you swap the spark plug wires? If not, then read this: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/problem-diagnosis/10465-firing-order-merged-5-7-a.html

Tom

PS: 9 years????

 

[jmatyas]

9 months sorry. i noticed that i put years the first time so i had to change it .

I did not know that there was a diff fireing order!!!!! damn that makes me feel stupid. ill go out and look. Thanks for the info!!!!

 

[rocafellafw]

Damn sorry to hear that man. I was actually thinking about buying a new ECU if you came back saying that fixed it. Trial and error is a beeeaatch

 

[jmatyas]

hold on and dont doubt the ecu yet. let me go out there and try the other fire order and see if thats it. ill update again asap.

 

[Artago]

9 months sorry. i noticed that i put years the first time so i had to change it .

I did not know that there was a diff fireing order!!!!! damn that makes me feel stupid. ill go out and look. Thanks for the info!!!!

Lol yeah .. i made that mistake when I got my EPROM too... happens a lot to people.

I think you need to swap the inside plugs on the coil pack and then swap the outside plugs on the coil pack. But don't take my word for it and double check. Once you get it hooked up right it should fire right up.

Good luck, and post back soon.

Tom

 

[jmatyas]

so far i tryed 3 fire orders to get it to start. and not one did.

i tryed the 4,1,2,3 coil to 1,2,3,4 plugs. ran really really rough and died. then i tryed the 1-3-4-2 post and that didnt work. AAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! as charlie brown would say. this is giving me a headach.

am i doing the wrong order or what.... this ecu started right up in my buddies 97 gst and in mine it wont start at all.....!!!

 

[Artago]

so far i tryed 3 fire orders to get it to start. and not one did.

i tryed the 4,1,2,3 coil to 1,2,3,4 plugs. ran really really rough and died. then i tryed the 1-3-4-2 post and that didnt work. AAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! as charlie brown would say. this is giving me a headach.

am i doing the wrong order or what.... this ecu started right up in my buddies 97 gst and in mine it wont start at all.....!!!

Yeah you've probably just got it wired wrong OR the battery is dead. Check the charge first then try this link.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/problem-diagnosis/10465-firing-order-merged-5-7-a-2.html#post1337803

It should be 3-2-1-4 on the coil pack to 4-3-2-1 on the head. Left to right standing in front of motor.

Tom

 

[jmatyas]

i know this is going to sound dumb but that link didnt help at all. i looked through it and not a single person is sure on what the 95 turbo order is. ive done all the ones show on those pages and not a single one started.

i dont get this. i know how to wire a car but how could this be so hard!!!!! 4123 to 1234. nope. and thats the one thats in hanes and most posted. didnt do anything. i just dont get it.

 

[jmatyas]

wait i found just the page to help!!!! http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/problem-diagnosis/153716-95-eprom-ecu-wont-crank-97-a.html

going outside right now to give it a try. wish me luck

 

[Artago]

i know this is going to sound dumb but that link didnt help at all. i looked through it and not a single person is sure on what the 95 turbo order is. ive done all the ones show on those pages and not a single one started.

i dont get this. i know how to wire a car but how could this be so hard!!!!! 4123 to 1234. nope. and thats the one thats in hanes and most posted. didnt do anything. i just dont get it.

Have you tried this? I think it's right but it may not be, try anyways.

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/i3tpJdokzvT2jnwSaogDag?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_OzUddyr2PvI/SgC5sITUnXI/AAAAAAAAADA/WlsWinanTAg/s800/CoilPack.JPG" /></a>

Note the coil pack. The STOCK order is 4123 so you swap inside and outside to get 3214 when you put a 95 ECU in a 97.

Tom

 

[Artago]

So.... what's the deal? Did it work?

Tom

 

[jmatyas]

sorry just got back in after the test drive. it was right to just switch the outside 2 and the inside 2 and boom fired right up.... and the results were....well.....amazing!!!!

i finally got it above 6k rpm in 3rd gear and felt like it ran stronger than it ever has. the only down side is it still hesitates a bit getting upto that rpm. like it has power then it doesent then it does and so on. but so far i can say that the ecu made a huge differance!!! maybe we can make it fully right here soon. thanks for the support so far guys.

 

[Artago]

it was right to just switch the outside 2 and the inside 2 and boom fired right up.... and the results were....well.....amazing!!!!

Isn't that what I said several posts ago??

i finally got it above 6k rpm in 3rd gear and felt like it ran stronger than it ever has. the only down side is it still hesitates a bit getting upto that rpm. like it has power then it doesent then it does and so on. but so far i can say that the ecu made a huge differance!!! maybe we can make it fully right here soon. thanks for the support so far guys.

So there is a noticeable difference? Are you sure you're not imagining it? If it's all good then great. Way to stick with it and not give up.

Hesitation in the upper RPM is probably just lack of fuel. The fuel pump is old and can't flow very well at those RPMs. This would be a good time to rewire it (it's in the tech articles).

However, if you plan to upgrade and build up the car then I suggest skipping the rewire for now and getting DSMlink for that EPROM ecu and buying either a 190 or 255 fuel pump, injectors (750's min), a boost guage, and wideband O2 (if you only get one thing from this list then make it the wide band. 190 is all you need for up to 400whp and it doesn't required a fuel pressure regulator. Once you have DSMlink and a pump you can swap the pump and do the rewire on the 190.

In the mean time, check for more leaks and don't push your car too hard. You could be leaning out at higher RPMS due to the stock pump and you wont even know it. That could melt pistons really quick. I would get a Wideband and boost guage QUICK.

If you don't plan to go big power then get the zeitronix WB because it has a basic logger build right in and the price is good. If you do plan to go big, then get a AEM or something because the logging capability of the zeitronix will be useless once you get DSMlink.

Any questions?

Tom

 

[rocafellafw]

Good to hear it man, I think if my new knock sensor/CAS combo does not help me I think a ECU will be my next purchase. Keep updating man, and again happy to hear it helped.

 

[spawn87]

well on my talon i would loose power at 5k also but i was told it was normal cause the t-to small gave out at that mark... so i put in the 14b ported and i still dont make power past 5k the engine just feels like its struggling... so my theory is that the tunning of the car is to blame...AM I RIGHT?...
one good way to fix your problem is to at least get a used AFC so you can control the fuel trims thats what im going to do... this way if the problem persist you know the tunning is not to blame.

its a process of elimination.

 

[spawn87]

its kinda late so forgive me if i missed something on the comments posted here but i was looking at jmatyas pictures of his car and the engine is a 6bolt not the stock 7bolt the 97 SHOULD HAVE.

but for the sake of the thread PLEASE tell me im wrong

 

[jmatyas]

I dont know how to check to see if its a 6bolt or a 7. but if i is a 6 bolt then heck yea and no need for a swap later!!!! after that last post im very interested in finding out if it is a 6bolt. if so no more crank walk!!!!

wont my new mbc fix that as well or does it have to be a afc? i really hope i can get this monkey off my back and let shadow really show her horses.

 

[Artago]

if so no more crank walk!!!!

This is a common misconception, CW can happen to any car, ANY. True it's more common to 7-bolts compared to 6-bolts but it can happen to both.

Also, CW is over rated. It's basically thrust bearing wear and failure which will ALWAYS happen from improper clutch assembly install. I know, been there, done that.

wont my new mbc fix that as well or does it have to be a afc? i really hope i can get this monkey off my back and let shadow really show her horses.

MBC has nothing to do with tuning. It's basically a valve that opens at a certain pressure allowing that pressurized air to pass through to the waste gate and open it. If you are running a stock setup you don't need a MBC.

If you want some advice as to which direction to go and what to do then here are the steps:

1. Fix all problems (like this one)
2. Do all you maintenance (seriously all of it)
3. Determine your goals and budge so you can plan out the rest.
4. Assuming you're aiming for the 250+whp range you will need: A boost guage, Wideband, and so on.

Tom