hits about 5k rpm, the car falls flat on its face

[jmatyas]

ok. so here we go again. So here is the problem. When i get on the gas and the turbo spools up and the car hits about 5k rpm, the car falls flat on its face and acts as though there is no turbo in the car. As though the boost was never there, but up till about 4,500 to 5k the boost and everything is fine.

I took it down to a dyno shop and this shows how bad it is. I dyno'd at 105hp with 155 torque. !!!! I had it at there shop for 6 hours today and everyone there was at a loss of words. We checked everything. boost leak... none, hoses in place and new. yes. I have no idea of what to do.

Come on my dsm friends. help me figure this out before i dump it off at the junkyard.

Oh also in case your wondering this is all that has been replaced. o2, maf, timing belt, boost leak test, fuel pressure, spark plugs and wires twice, over $4500 in replacement parts and labor has gone into this car....and its just almost stock... im about the cry...

 

[rocafellafw]

I thought I was the only one who would have a DSM for a year and drive it for only 2-3 months.

+3 , I had no idea when I bought this car 5 months ago I'd only be able to drive it 3 times....

 

[99Mitsu]

I had it at there shop for 6 hours today and everyone there was at a loss of words. We checked everything. boost leak... none, hoses in place and new. yes. I have no idea of what to do.

i have a few theories on this

theory 1) when you go WOT, the fuel injectors are trying to let alot of fuel in, but the sensor or whatever is hooked up to them, is restricting the flow...therefore "confusing" the car and causing hesitation and sputtering

theory 2) your A/F ratio is off or mistuned...

since you checked everything that could have gone wrong physically, check your electronics, something could be off in your on board systems

But like i said...thats just my theory,

 

[jmatyas]

Update #2.
well i woke up early today to see what i could do to help the car and here is the results.
1. boost leak test #2 at 20psi. no leaks. im honestly shocked. i had 2 of my friends out there listening for leaks and couldnt find any. I did notice that my stock bov isnt the tightest in its housing but there was no leak there?
2. bcs has been pulled and no change. i guess i fall into the no noticable change group .
3. i went through and retightened all of the clamps and made sure all hoses were good. everything is in check for that area.

im about to give up. the car idles perfect and drives great till i get it under heavy load. then just cough hesitation and black smoke out the exaust. i just dont get it.....

im tempted to buy the punishment racing fmic kit and see if that changes anything for the hell of it. if not then shadow "my cars name " is going to take a trip to the wrecking yard
thanks again for all the help and tips.

 

[2gawdtsi]

Don't give up quite yet theres still hope for shadow haha.

 

[gstryyder]

b4 you go and take your car to the wrecking yard give us some more time. obviously if you have spent 4500$ and the problem is not solved you didn't do any of the work yourself, you were just throwing on parts to see what would fix the problem, and the place you are going to DOESN'T KNOW WHAT THE HECK THEY ARE DOING. i would give us here on dsmtuners a try. it is harder to diagnose when we aren't there, but i am sure the problem could eventually be fixed. and you wont be spending another 4500$ on nothing...no point in throwing away a perfectly good car. if you really plan on doing that i would drive there to take it off your hand and most likely have it fixed within the first week of having it in my garage... or at lease figure out the problem if i don't have the cash left over to fix it from going on the trip. i am being SERIOUS about that. i would drive there to pick it up with a truck n trailer... its too bad you are so far away or i would just come over to fix it for you. but you need to start checking stuff yourself and asking questions on how to do things so you don't have to take it to a friekin shop all the time. obviously they don't know what they are doing. and you could learn alot in the process also.

so give us some time, if we can't figure it out over the internet and you still feel like sending it to the junk yard let me know. i wouldn't mind having another one.

 

[99Mitsu]

Update #2.
im about to give up. the car idles perfect and drives great till i get it under heavy load. then just cough hesitation and black smoke out the exaustQUOTE]

ok i think i know your problem

you said you got black smoke out the exhasut right?...your running rich in the high RPMs....next time is sputters with black smoke, pull one of the plugs out and see if it has gas on it...it sound like an ignition and/or fuel issue

i'm not exactly sure how to fix it...but i would with knokcing your air:fuel down

 

[gstryyder]

have you pulled the turbo to check and see if there are any major cracks or and damage to the turbine housing that would cause it to lose the ability to hold boost? check your compression? is there a functioning knock sensor on the car? have you checked all of your solenoids to make sure they are working properly? and have you pulled your ecu to check for any damage? are you sure when you removed the BCS that you put everything back together properly? are you 100% SURE that you vacuum lines are hooked up correctly? there are a million things to check without just buying and throwing parts on your car to see if that is the fix... your igniton and fuel delivery may be a problem also... how do your plugs look? how have you tested the fuel delivery?

those were just a few ideas, i will go joggle my memory and get back to you with a few more. let me know if you have already done all that stuff ye t or not? if not then check it and let me know what you find out.

i have had guys bring me their cars and the fix to the problems were:

4 different spark plugs and 2 different kinds of wires, no knock sensors, vacuum lines were literally all hooked up wrong, no CAS (how it ran i dunno)... (i would check the cat also) had a catalytic converter that collapsed in the front 1/2 and plugged up .. (how that happened i don't know?), one guys wasnt getting much boost at all, and we checked compression and he was at 95 across the board...i had a guy with a crack that ran along the intire wastegate side of his turbo, couldn't hold boost for nothin... yet was not visible by just looking at the turb, we had to remove it.. it is like having the wastegate flapper open (except it s a huge crack .)

so ideas are just off the top of my head. the more things we rule out the closer you get to fix it. obviously you have put alot of time and money into this car. why not spend a little more with people that personally know how to fix and work on these cars, and know them inside and out.

 

[jmatyas]

i completly agree with you. i really really dont wanna give up. also the $4500 wasnt only this problem. ive had to do a ton to this car just to get it legal and driveable. btw i just moved from socal and yea the 2600 mile drive isnt fun .

im not trying to give up yet. im just really really frustrated. i just got full time at work and this is my daily driver. and it giving me only about 15 miles to the gallon with this issue its getting expensive. but i do bet it is just a dumb solution but i just dont see it yet. the new dyno shop i just took it to is great its just there more used to muscle cars and not tuners. its hard to find a good tuner shop around here.

so i gues next steps look like goning with the punishment fmic, mbc, and last but not least the ecmlink. that is if i could afford it all. hey punishment im talking to ya!!!! .

dsmtuner guys your the best!!!! lets see if we could get project shadow working right with good power.

 

[boostedawd42]

Go outside as soon as you can, get under the car, pull the cat off. I will almost bet money that its clogged. Its the only thing that will make sense to me with the symptoms.

 

[jmatyas]

have you pulled the turbo to check and see if there are any major cracks or and damage to the turbine housing that would cause it to lose the ability to hold boost? check your compression? is there a functioning knock sensor on the car? have you checked all of your solenoids to make sure they are working properly? and have you pulled your ecu to check for any damage? are you sure when you removed the BCS that you put everything back together properly? are you 100% SURE that you vacuum lines are hooked up correctly? there are a million things to check without just buying and throwing parts on your car to see if that is the fix... your igniton and fuel delivery may be a problem also... how do your plugs look? how have you tested the fuel delivery?


turbo checked and is good, compression was kinda a last resort, the engine only has 47k on it and it runs great till the problem happens, knock sensor is in great working condition and all most solenoids have been checked and or replaced, ecu has not been pulled yet, bcs i made sure i marked everything before i put it back in, brand new ngk spark plugs that went from new to black in only 2 runs on the dyno covered in fuel, but the air/fuel ratio is in check during idle and low boost....

alot of great ideas!!! ill have the ecu checked and the compression test done soon.

Great idea ill go and have the cat checked!!! i was thinking about buying a hiflow cat "test pipe" on the car since i never have to have it smoged. i would go strait pipe but they do check with a mirror to see if at least i have a cat, but there is no actual emission testing.

 

[gstryyder]

too bad you just moved from socal there are lots of people out here to help., and my garage is open to help anyone around here.... i would definitley check the cat make sure you use PB blaster, or yield if you have trouble with the bolts.! but horrible gas mileage is interesting with proper a/f ratio. unless something is seriously clogged like your cat, fuel filter injectors as long as you have good ignition n spark. you have a new fuel filter i assume? and your injectors are flowing properly? after everything mentioned above that you said you were gonna check is done, get back to us. it may be something to do with your ignition.

i just figured the compression check may tell us something. if not, at least you now how healthy the engine is. let us know how that cat inspection goes. i would even remove it and run it just to see how things go without the cat. if it changes at all, then bingo... we are one step closer to a full solution. if not well, there are always other possibilities.

good luck with checking everything out for now. i will update myself on this thread tonight and see how things are going for you after i get done helping my buddy fix his car, and helping another friend move later today.

as far as that drive out there.. i now how that is i have have my fair share of drives around/across the county and also through Tennessee.. the troopers that patrol the I-40 are quite amusing hiding behind bushes and stuff. ... i still caught them with my radar detector while flying thru there with a few other cars.. . everybody was dependent on me to find them, and we slowed down as we went past every trooper. .. definitley got across the state pretty damn fast. . that is a nice little part of the country.

 

[habitatguy187]

It's very evident that you're running rich man. Are you sure you still have the stock injectors in the car? Have you checked your base fuel pressure? Could be something to do with the ignition system.

You need to search this site for "running rich" and look at what other ppl have done to fix their problems, that way it can give you some insight into yours.

BTW a clogged cat could be a very real possibility, but it's not certain, you'll just have to take it off and see.

 

[dylnwit]

Have you pulled the upper heat shield on your exhaust manifold and checked it for cracks? The 2g manifolds were better about cracking, but still do from time to time. Do you have any form of a logger? I'm betting with a log or 2, some of the wisemen could find your issue in no time.

I'd say pull the cat off and run it up and down the block once or twice, long as your not doing it after 7ish, most people in that area don't mind (used to live about 15min up 27 in Soddy-Daisy). The cat normally tries to 'burn' unused fuel from my understanding, and I could see it easily being clogged if your running that rich in the higher rpm's.

If you're only making 8 psi, most likely your boost control solenoid is staying shut. I'd yank the hose off from the BCS, and give it a try; then you should be at around 14psi.

By this they mean take the hose going from the BCS to the wastegate off, I believe that Artago's link to the BCS restrictor removal page was to show you where it is, so you knew which hose it is.

 

[jrohner]

You're a ways a way from needing link or any mods of any kind. When you are trying to figure out an issue, modding is more apt to hurt you than help you because you are still not FIXING the issue. You also make it sound like link is the only way to tune -- if you want good tuning but link is too expensive, there are other ways of tuning that you should start looking into (but don't do anything with that until you get your car working correctly as stock).

Like I already said and you didn't listen, I will pretty much guarantee you that your issue is just the BCS is not working for some reason -- wire is broken or disconnected, hose plugged off, etc.

 

[jmatyas]

You're a ways a way from needing link or any mods of any kind. When you are trying to figure out an issue, modding is more apt to hurt you than help you because you are still not FIXING the issue. You also make it sound like link is the only way to tune -- if you want good tuning but link is too expensive, there are other ways of tuning that you should start looking into (but don't do anything with that until you get your car working correctly as stock).

Like I already said and you didn't listen, I will pretty much guarantee you that your issue is just the BCS is not working for some reason -- wire is broken or disconnected, hose plugged off, etc.

ill fully take it off when i get off work in about 2 hours. i put back on the hose because i didnt know how it would run after i pulled the hose but ill be sure to try that again. Im learning as i go so sorry if it takes me a time or two.

im hopeing its the cat but i have a gut feeling that it isnt that but i will deff give it a shot. ill change it with a high flow cat i just ordered soon and also im tempted to get a mbc to totally bypass the bcs. if im getting that right if im not please dont make me look like an idiot.

 

[jrohner]

ill fully take it off when i get off work in about 2 hours. i put back on the hose because i didnt know how it would run after i pulled the hose but ill be sure to try that again. Im learning as i go so sorry if it takes me a time or two.

im hopeing its the cat but i have a gut feeling that it isnt that but i will deff give it a shot. ill change it with a high flow cat i just ordered soon and also im tempted to get a mbc to totally bypass the bcs.

I've actually had good luck adjusting the boost without a MBC on a few different cars. Pulling the hose off the BCS gives you a couple pounds, pulling the hose off at the T can give you another pound or so, then switching the T (or adding another T) to one that flows better can give you even more. The one car I tune, we have the BCS still there, and an additional T that is open. We put a switch to control the BCS so we can have it at two different boost settings, because it's a FWD so it spins too easy in 1st at 16psi on the high setting (the low setting is at around 10-12psi).

Make sure and have a logger hooked up and keep an eye on things when you're turning up the boost though.

 

[jmatyas]

well i pulled the hose off the bcs and took it around the block. about 12-14psi of boost!!!! great update!!! but alas... still massive power cut off. im really starting to think its the cat. it has to be. i work at sears and the guys there will pull my cat off tomorrow. i would do it myself but my apt complex dosent allow us to jack up cars in there parkinglot or else tow. i hate it. sigh.

is it safe to drive with that hose unpluged? i tucked it into a zip tie so that way it wont flop around. i didnt take off the wastegate side just to be safe so i wouldnt forget where it went to.

one last thing the engine bay seemed a bit hotter than normal but all of my gauges didnt show it running hotter. maybe its the turbo finally running at its peak .
more power!!!!

 

[rush2252]

My 2g was having similar problems. Today I performed a boost leak on the entire intake system. I unhooked the vacuum line from my intake and ran 20psi from a shop hose into it and used soapy water. I found a major leak at the EGR. Somebody changed it and left off the gasket.

I also found a leak at the throttle body one of my silicone boots wasnt sealing off. I made a gasket for the EGR valve and fixed the coupler. I have had this car about 8 months and never got more than about 17mpg and usually get about 225 per tank driving like a grandma and running 8psi. I drove it 165miles on 1/2 tank of gas quicker spool and no more rich smell/smoke from exhaust


I did a boost leak prior with the throttle body closed and when I held it open this is when i finally found the leaky EGR. I kept getting a CEL for insufficient EGR flow..hmmm i wander why

-Kolby

 

[jmatyas]

ill have to do another test now and see if i have that same problem. i hate having to do the test with a bike pump but hey at least it works .

also on a random note i noticed that there was a decent amount of oil in the intercooler pipes. also there is always a good amount of condesation comming out the exaust that is jet black.
i didnt know if this is normal or if i need to worry.

 

[Bluefire16]

These could be the signs of your turbo dying, how is the shaft play on it? All of this sounds like a bad turbo.... especially if you have oil leaking, seals have gone bad in the turbo.

 

[jmatyas]

i noticed a lil bit of shaft play but ill have to wait till the morning to see for sure. ill deff keep you posted. i kinda in a way hope all this is the turbo so i have a good reason to get my 16g .

 

[beniger]

if your cat is clogged your engine will be getting hot, also i would check the mas if it just falls off suddenly.

 

[jmatyas]

ok i keep hearing about going with a gm maf. is that hard to adapt over to my car and/or could a noob like me do it . or would it be even worth while to do on a stock car?

 

[rocafellafw]

ok i keep hearing about going with a gm maf. is that hard to adapt over to my car and/or could a noob like me do it . or would it be even worth while to do on a stock car?

I don't think it would be good for you to convert to a GM MAF with your current problem. I think the more stock and factory-like you can get everything the easier it will be to pinpoint your ("our" since I'm having almost the exact same problem) problem. As for the difficulty level of installing the setup I'd say fairly easy. It's not the MAF thats the problem installing, it's the MAF Translator which is still pretty easy in itself. From what I've read it's only splicing of a few wires and connecting to the GMAF.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

If it's not a boost leak, it's ignition related. Have you tried finding a buddy with a logger to see what it says when you hit this wall? Also, see if you can borrow a spare '97 Turbo ECU from someone and see if it has something to do with that. It could be that the ECU is freaking out for some reason and pulling TONS of timing. Possibly a faulty knock sensor? Go ahead and check to see if it's covered in a sludge like layer anyway.

And about the Sears thing...I feel so sorry for you...I work there too