Help choosing new turbo

[Iroc_g]

Well, i finally made it to the dyno today, and i must say, i am pretty disapointed with the results. Looking back, i guess i had some pretty high expectations for my evo3 turbo, but im not happy making 300whp. Car is a 2g AWD with enough supporting engine mods to do atleast 450-500 whp.

I want to easily get 400whp, and having a little left if i doceide to go further with the car would be nice, but not a must. Id really like to use as many of the existing components i have such a downpipe and manifold.

I am wondering if any of the turbonetics or other turbos will "bolt" to the mitsubishi pipe and manifold. Also, am i killing myself by wanting to use those types of flanges. Ive looked a little at a turbonetics 60-1, but honestly, i don't understand enough about turbo specs yet to make a good decision on my own.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Ultimatedsm]

If you just want 400 WHP stick with a T3/T4 50 trim, or a 20G TDO6. If you get something like a 60-1, your going to hate the lag compared to your EVOIII 16g. You will lose a ton of low end torque because of the must slower spooling 60 trim turbo. Both the 50 trim and 20g TDO6 will spool slower than the EVOIII, but it is not nearly as bad as the 60 trim.

 

[Iroc_g]

well, i do like the really low spool time on my evo3, and i realize im going to have to sacrafice some of that, but i deffinatly want it to be very daily driveable.

Im not too fimiliar with the 50 trim, but ive heard that the 20g is a stretch to 400whp on pump gas. But like i said, im learning the turbo info.

 

[ericbev]

Fill out your mod profile. Post dynographs and explain more.

There are plenty of mitsu/garret hybrids that will bolt right up and do what you are asking.

Easily get 400whp? On pump gas? On race gas? What are you going to be doing with the car?

 

[bfdahl]

Odds are that you will not see 400whp with a 50 trim or a 20 on 91 oct pump. Im not sure what you can get with 93.

I have a 50 trim and its ok on pump and spectacular on 100 oct!

If i have to buy another turbo for the street it will be a 20G!

It come on a little quicker than the 50 trim, and will make more usable power under 20 psi over the 50 trim.

340 to 370 hp is about what these do on pump on the street with piggy-backs.

 

[Iroc_g]

Ill update my profile once ive got a few min's. But heres a quicky...

Ported head w/ 1mm= stainless valves and comp 100200's
Forged pistons and rods at 8:1 compression
MAFT blow-thru with greddy 24r
780cc injectors with keydiver stage 2 ECU
walbro 255
Ferrea springs, Ti retainers, keepers
RRE 3" down pipe w/ apexi backhalf
Fizazza cam gears
CF DF clutch with Xact flywheel
AVC-r
Fluidyne radiator

more I cant remember at 4:30 am too!

Basically, it made only 270 at the wheels. The gu doing the tuning said he could almost guarentee me annother 30whp w/ DSMlink, because he couldn't fine tune the spark and a few other things. Also, my waste gate isn't big enough, so the boost is a little unstable. I got cheap and didn't go with the oversize flapper.

As far as what i want to do with the car, im not sure. Mostly, its a childish need for 400+ whp. I plan to do a little autocrossing and maybe a few trips to the drag strip, but nothing regular or serious. Just enough to keep me out of trouble.

 

[Ultimatedsm]

The 20G and the 50 Trim will suck for autocrossing. A car with a T-25 will out run you on the twisties. People probably are thinking what the hell are you talking about, I make 400WHP on my 20G, I can kill the T-25 in sheer power!! Numbers look good on paper, but it all depends what your going to use that Horsepower/torque for. 20g/50 trim, horsepower and torque come later on the power band Versus the T-25 or EVOIII 16g which is critical on the type of racing your doing.

For example, the drag strip you are constantly WOT and pushing those exhaust gases through the hot side of the turbo to keep it spooled, but if you go to the autocross, theres a lot of part throttle, no throttle, WOT etc. That means you will have to start from scratch a lot of times spooling that turbo.

Having that said, now if you have a 20g/50 trim, you come out of the corner brakes on, then push the gas there will be no torque down low specially when your in the wrong gear. The EVOIII 16g even if your in the wrong gear you will have that turbo spooling in no time.

So the EVOIII will out perform the 20g/50 trim on autocross coarses. However, the 20g/50 trim will out perform the EVOIII16g on the drag strip. It all depends on your goals man.

With that setup you have, you can make 400WHP on pump with some good tuning on a bigger turbo. I don't know if you heard of DRE99, he has a 99 GSX and made 435WHP on his 7 bolt with a 50 trim and 720 CC injectors, so its very possible, its all about tuning my friend.

 

[Steve93Talon]

How much boost are you running? For your application, the EVO3 sounds perfect. I'd keep it and get DSMlink, then play with your timing so you can get more boost out of it without knock. Also, consider water/meth/alky injection. I made 289whp on my 14b with 99 octane unleaded and a stock SMIC. Tuning is everything.

 

[Ultimatedsm]

To make more power on a smaller turbo, you need things like cams etc. But those smaller turbos rule when you start making some good horsepower numbers, there is barely any delay for that power to hit unlike those 50 trims etc.

 

[CanadianTSi]

Yes, how much boost were you running? doesn't sound like you have that 16g maxxed out yet...

PS Dre made 503 on pump...

 

[90AWDTalon]

So the EVOIII will out perform the 20g/50 trim on autocross coarses. However, the 20g/50 trim will out perform the EVOIII16g on the drag strip. It all depends on your goals man.

I autoX'd an evoIII last year and found that it spooled too fast. I had problems putting power down coming out of corners. I now have an HX35, should have similar spool to 20g/50trim, and the spool is just slow enough to make it easier to put power down with out being laggy. Maybe you have tighter courses in your region than we do. I rarely drop down to low 2000 rpm range in 2nd gear, and thats only on really tight hairpins. Most corners never drop below mid to upper 2000 rpms range, which shouldn't cause any problems spooling any of the turbo's mentioned.

 

[90AWDTalon]

Basically, it made only 270 at the wheels.

What kind of dyno? If it was a mustang and the guy hasn't done any correction's to make it match dynojet dyno's you can add about 20% to that number.

 

[dsm-onster]

I autoX'd an evoIII last year and found that it spooled too fast. I had problems putting power down coming out of corners. I now have an HX35, should have similar spool to 20g/50trim, and the spool is just slow enough to make it easier to put power down with out being laggy. Maybe you have tighter courses in your region than we do. I rarely drop down to low 2000 rpm range in 2nd gear, and thats only on really tight hairpins. Most corners never drop below mid to upper 2000 rpms range, which shouldn't cause any problems spooling any of the turbo's mentioned.

This is what i was thinking. . . Whoever says a t25 is quicker in autocross is not hitting the apex hard enough (or doesn't have the balls to). W/ my 18G I was able to KILL my times w/ the small 16g on the illegal road racing on the eastern shore VA. Where we've got 90s comming out of negative inclines and 180s w/ 15 foot radiuses. Whether or not I'm a good driver, it got easier w/ the bigger turbo. I see the point where lag becomes severly detrimental. But, a t25 can't offer the power after 15 feet of straight road to provide any edge in cornering challenges.

 

[Iroc_g]

As far as the dyno, it is a mustang. I don't know about any corrections, but we compared it to other saved runs he had, and it wasn't good.

I was running upto 22psi. Honestly, were having a little trouble getting the boost stable because i dont have a big enough wastegate.

My first thing will be to get dsmlink. I wanted to avoid it, but i really think it is the right thing to do. hind sight is a biotch!

Im leaning towards a 60-1 right now, just because from what i can tell, i can order it to bolt up from turbonetics.

Also, i wouldn't worry too much about the autocrossing thing for my situation. It is nothing i am set on doing, and i don't want to purpose build the car either way. I want the middle ground if at all possible.

 

[CanadianTSi]

A smaller wastegate will help you run more boost, if you go up to a bigger wastegate your boost will tapper up top.

Just a note, a few years ago I made 270 to all 4 wheels on a mustang dyno with an Evo 3 at 20psi. The car trapped 110-111mph and was really fun on the street.

 

[AL92]

Mustang dynos read lower by a considerable amount than other types like dynojet.
You might have your 300whp if it was tested on a mustang dyno.

I would stay away from turbonetics turbos and stick with mit or garrett.Seen many turbonetics failures on the boards.
You want a good turbo go with AGP RS49 or RS60 but not the 60T even though its cheaper.You want for sure screamer and performance go for FP3052. You have the support mods. Don't cheap out. You went this far.
I had RS49 on my 92 talon with 650s,supra pump, afpr,maft and chipped ecu.apext gt catback and downpipe.The car was fast but it was held back by stock clutch and stock smic.I bought new clutch and fmic but then sold it and have been building my 97 up big time. Its almost done a week or two now. I would have went FP3052 but got the FP3065 as have the bigger 2.4 engine.

FP3052 have done some excellent times. If you can afford one don't think you can buy a better turbo.See how many unhappy FP 3052 people there are on the board..not very many!!

 

[Iroc_g]

You want a good turbo go with AGP RS49 or RS60 but not the 60T even though its cheaper.You want for sure screamer and performance go for FP3052. You have the support mods. Don't cheap out. You went this far.

I saw the AGP stuff lastnight while looking around. They seem like a good choice. I think what I really need is a better understanding of how different turbines, housings, etc. effect the turbo's personality. There are so many different turbines and wheels available its making my head spin!

I have seen a lot of people recomend the FP turbo's, but i havent found any information on them yet that has made any sence to me.

If anyone can refer me to a good source to read about turbo design i would appreciate it.

Also, once i get a bigger turbo, am i killing myself by trying to reuse my EVO3 manifold and O2 housing? Also, If i have to get my down pipe refabbed, do i just weld an O2 bung, or are there aftermarket housings for the 5 bolt outlet flange they all seem to have.

 

[Ultimatedsm]

Or you can go with the classic 20g TDO6 that has been proven for several years now. It is probably overall the best turbo on the marketing. It is definetely the most reliable of the bunch. It has decent spool with great top end power, you can easily do 400WHP with your setup with a good tune.

 

[AL92]

The evo exh man and evo o2 are fine for most turbos.More than fine. The evo o2 don't work with FP 3052 as it has it own FP 02 housing and you need external gate. The FP3052 is not a cheap upgrade.You can read reviews and threads on it on www.dsmtalk.com

I think you are making things a bit more complicated than they need to be. If you want something bigger than an evo 16 you can go 20 g in mits line. It is proven and works fine with evo 02 and evo exh man. If you want a 50 trim you have AGP RS49, slowboy ones ,whatever..I just know the RS49 work well I had one and few other guys I know.
It will hit full spool around 3800 on a 2.0. If you want bigger they have RS60 it will hit full around 4800...These huge turbos are better on 2.3 or 2.4 motors or drag cars.
For street use a 20g,RS49 or FP3052 will all be awesome choices. You need 650 to 750 injectors and they can run fine with a maft or chipped ecu. All spool pretty quick and can do 400 at the back wheels ,500 at the engine is doable with support mods, cams, big fmic,etc. And they can put out decent power on pump gas. You dont' need to read turbo maps or any of that stuff..Basically full spool much past 3800 is not very good on the street. The evo 16 is hard to beat on the street actually on a 2.0. And if it don't do the numbers you want could always add a 50 to 75 shot of spray for those times you want more.
But I do like big turbos too..My FP3065 is pretty big but on the 2.4 it will be about the same as a 20g or 50 trim on a 2.0. So really it is supposed to be very streetable.

 

[dsm-onster]

Just a little info. . . No flame. But the RS60 should hit a good amount of boost by 4200 or so rpms. Not close to 5K. The Bullseye housing yields great spool on account of it/s A/R characteristics. It has been reported to have a .55 a/r and, even w/ the stage 5 wheel, it is not that sluggish. Nor is it so much bigger than a FP3052, IMHO.

I'd take a look at the holset variety. The HX40 did great in the bullesye housing (minus the internal gating) when SBR dyno tested this. Great spool and SURPASSING flow capability. 500whp would be a walk in the part w/ this turbo. They can be had for cheap, and a bolt-on BEP housing will make them an easy install. Even an HX35 would probably satisfy your goals and offer fantastic spool in a bolt-one BEP housing. There's a few threads floating around discussing holsets. . .

 

[Iroc_g]

id really like to get the thing on by $k at the latest. I think anymore than that would just get annoying on the street.

I know alot of people suggest the 20g, but ive been told that 400whp is about the limit on pump gas for that turbo. I honestly want enough in the turbo for more power, even though i don't intend to use it. Its nice not pushing your turbo to the limit every time you get into it.

The rs60 looks like a great choice, but im a little worried about lag. Can anyone post where there's comes on if they have one! Im gonna look around for more info on the FP turbos as well.

 

[dsm-onster]

RS60T = around 4100 rpms

Many report the same for the FP RED (very similar performance).

Pump gas and the 20g for 400whp is possible. Throw in a little water/alky injection and you should be fine w/ a good flowing intercooler.

I say go 50 trim if you don't plan on going much farther than the 400whp mark but want breathing room. BTW, the HX35 Holset is comperable (w/ a little more flow) mated to a BEP turbine housing. You canget these for far chaper than a 50 trim. They are indestructable and are very efficient at 24-30 psi. I would debae that it would be better on pump gas than a 50 trim (the "pump gas king").

But, if you want something that's tried and true, go 50-trim (FP GREEN, RS49, etc).

 

[Iroc_g]

OK, after reading stuff for the last 2 hours, i think im going to re-use my 02 housing, DP, and manifold. So I guess what i need to decide is which turbo is available as a mitsu bolt in that can make the numbers I want on pumpgas with some to spare!

Also, ive noticed that some come with or without internal gateing. And they also ask where your gate is located if external. Which is better and why? Ill have an external welded in if its neccisary or better.

 

[blue1]

Best to have the waste gate taken from the exhaust collector, taking it off one runner seems to lead to boost creep. My 2cents worth.

 

[Pennywise]

50trim, or a nice gt30 combo.