fp green/71hta internal wg problems

[turtleb00st]

Just got off the phone with fp. i got a new 71hta and this thing is bad ass, but it's done at 26psi. I was told they use a 15psi actuator for the turbo which explains why i can't get more boost out of it (checked for boost leaks ect). There is also no more room left on the shaft to add more preload to the turbo due to the design. I have also read somebody having this problem with a green.

Is there anyway I can modify a holset actuator or something else to get 32ish psi out of this thing? FP told me i would most likely have to go external but I don't want to waste money on all the parts when I could just modify a wastegate to work.

I already have a jusmx wastegate that he modified for 16g style compressor housing for me so i'm hoping this can be done with the downfiring fp housing.

 

[kchaazz]

Talk to Justin about this, Im sure he can set you up with something. I havent seen a good pic of the actuator on these, but it almost LOOKS like you could use a Holset actuator with little modification to the actuator mounting bracket and rod. Im in the market for an internally gated Green myself, so hopefully you two come up with a viable solution.

 

[T is for TURBO]

In for a response. I really don't want to go external with my green.

 

[JusMX141]

There's only so much an internal gate can do. They're using a huge 34mm flapper on these turbos for some reason, further-inflating the problem...which is why you're only able to get roughly 10psi above what the actuator's spring is rated at.

At this point your only option is to go external, really. Even an 18-20psi actuator will have a tough time making 28-30psi with a 34mm flapper.

 

[turtleb00st]

There's only so much an internal gate can do. They're using a huge 34mm flapper on these turbos for some reason, further-inflating the problem...which is why you're only able to get roughly 10psi above what the actuator's spring is rated at.

At this point your only option is to go external, really. Even an 18-20psi actuator will have a tough time making 28-30psi with a 34mm flapper.

Not at all what I want to hear Justin. Lmk if your interested is seeing if we can come up with a few more psi solution... I still have the holset modified td05 actuator (I believe the strongest one you could find) and I have the fp actuator I can send and see for your typical fair fees what we can do. Still will be a ton cheaper if your intrested instead of taking off the turbo modifying the wg and getting a tial and fancy o2 housing.

It makes no sense fp would supply such a weak spring wg and huge flapper knowing most people are running huge boost now and days on e85. Their evo black comes with a 25psi actuator it should be an option with the 71 and green as well. If I would have known I would have went external.

 

[T is for TURBO]

Thanks for pissing in my cheerios, Justin

You speak of an 18-20psi actuator. Is there one/ modified one that would work on a fp green/71hta that you know of? I would like to keep it internal for as long as possible.

 

[JusMX141]

Lmk if your interested is seeing if we can come up with a few more psi solution... I still have the holset modified td05 actuator (I believe the strongest one you could find) and I have the fp actuator I can send and see for your typical fair fees what we can do. Still will be a ton cheaper if your intrested instead of taking off the turbo modifying the wg and getting a tial and fancy o2 housing.

You'd spend all that time and money to potentially gain 2-3psi? Not worth it. I wouldn't do it even if you wanted to....too pointless. Go external and let the flapper dangle or tack-weld the lever arm in the open position in case you ever want to sell the turbo as internally-gated.

It makes no sense fp would supply such a weak spring wg and huge flapper knowing most people are running huge boost now and days on e85. Their evo black comes with a 25psi actuator it should be an option with the 71 and green as well. If I would have known I would have went external.

They really can't market an internally-gated turbo to suit everyone. If they put a 25psi actuator on it, guys with fairly-stock fuel systems couldn't use the 71HTA. FP markets the turbo assuming the buyer knows when it's time to switch to an external gate...and if you want 32psi, it's time.

The Evo turbos are a different ballgame- only one wastegate flapper covering two half-moon shape holes in the housing, and an actuator which pulls in a straight line so it's much stronger- plus there are a pile of direct-fit aftermarket actuators for Evos in tons of pressure ratings since FP's using an OEM Evo IX-fitment compressor cover to build their entire Evo lineup, plus you don't have the option of going external on an Evo nearly as easily as a DSM since the Evo manifolds and turbos are all twin-scroll.

 

[turtleb00st]

I'm a little confused so if I want to go external right now I can just unhook the wg actuator and be done? I thought I would have to weld the wg flapper closed from the inside to be sure all the exhaust gas is spinning the turbine and not bypassing it.

You'd spend all that time and money to potentially gain 2-3psi? Not worth it. I wouldn't do it even if you wanted to....too pointless. Go external and let the flapper dangle or tack-weld the lever arm in the open position in case you ever want to sell the turbo as internally-gated.

They really can't market an internally-gated turbo to suit everyone. If they put a 25psi actuator on it, guys with fairly-stock fuel systems couldn't use the 71HTA. FP markets the turbo assuming the buyer knows when it's time to switch to an external gate...and if you want 32psi, it's time.

The Evo turbos are a different ballgame- only one wastegate flapper covering two half-moon shape holes in the housing, and an actuator which pulls in a straight line so it's much stronger- plus there are a pile of direct-fit aftermarket actuators for Evos in tons of pressure ratings since FP's using an OEM Evo IX-fitment compressor cover to build their entire Evo lineup, plus you don't have the option of going external on an Evo nearly as easily as a DSM since the Evo manifolds and turbos are all twin-scroll.

 

[JusMX141]

Depends where the wastegate is placed. I figured you'd be going external off the o2 housing.


Another thing to consider is that FP likely designed the wastegate system with the reliability of the turbo in mind....if you're pushing anything with a TD05H turbine to 32psi, it's not going to last very long.

Actually if you're pushing a turbo with a TD05H turbine to 32psi, you need a bigger turbo.

 

[turtleb00st]

I'm planning on off the o2 if I do go external. 32psi was just a number I pulled out. I just want 3/4 more mph in the 1/4 to get me to a 10 sec time slip.

Depends where the wastegate is placed. I figured you'd be going external off the o2 housing.


Another thing to consider is that FP likely designed the wastegate system with the reliability of the turbo in mind....if you're pushing anything with a TD05H turbine to 32psi, it's not going to last very long.

Actually if you're pushing a turbo with a TD05H turbine to 32psi, you need a bigger turbo.

 

[n0de]

Oh boy, the build i have going currently (almost done) is a 2.3 w/ a fp-green externally gated. I was looking to max out that turbo, probably will be around 32psi, hopefully the boost doesn't drop off up top.

 

[turtleb00st]

Oh boy, the build i have going currently (almost done) is a 2.3 w/ a fp-green externally gated. I was looking to max out that turbo, probably will be around 32psi, hopefully the boost doesn't drop off up top.

The shouldn't have a problem your hot side Is bigger

Please excuse my ignorence but if I decide to go external off the o2 I can just tac weld the flapper open without taking off the turbo and that's all I need to do besides getting a new o2 and ex wg? Can I just let the wg sit without the actuator connected? Seems to be the same principal. I'm trying to minimize the work needed (turbo removal replacement I hate the damn oil water line removal)

 

[bastarddsm]

Get a 3 port solenoid, and use it right, and the internal will hold anything. I hold 40psi on my HE351 with the internal gate

 

[turtleb00st]

Get a 3 port solenoid, and use it right, and the internal will hold anything. I hold 40psi on my HE351 with the internal gate

I have only heard of people using these to help spool up never to get more boost out of an internal wg. Please enlighten me how this works. Does it use boost to keep the wg shut?

 

[jed344]

My he351 when on my cummins would hold 50psi they are very different then a fp turbo there specs are 60/60/9 if I remember the 9cm housing is pry why it's not very free flowing

 

[turtleb00st]

I do some research on the evo forums since a lot of evo owners are maxing out th 71hta. I read the efficiency is done for this turbo at about 26psi depending on setup, most of the evo guys putting down real good numbers are running this turbo at 30/32psi spikes and about 28/29 up top which is what I'm shooting for. Lucky for them fp makes a proper wg to hold boost

I'm going to rig up an external spring some now to get a few more psi out of it. I got 2 more psi by removing my boost controller which was causing some issues. Straight wg now I get 28psi or so couldn't do real testing thanks to bad rain the last few days.

According to my traps fp said I should be flowing about 47/48lb a min which is what link says so there is still a few more lb a min in this thing.

Shaft speeds should still be decently safe on a 2.0 at 7500rm redline under 30psi so hopefully that's not an issue.

 

[JusMX141]

Straight wg now I get 28psi or so couldn't do real testing thanks to bad rain the last few days.

With no signal line attached to the cover? That's all you're getting, then....28psi. You can try adding some springs somehow, but it's probably not going to help much....especially once the springs start to get hot and fatugue.

Shaft speeds should still be decently safe on a 2.0 at 7500rm redline under 30psi so hopefully that's not an issue.

Doubtful. Thrust loads are going to be through the roof with a compressor that big, and backpressure's going to be insane if the turbine isn't clipped.

Keep in mind you can't directly apply a specific Evo turbo's results to DSM's....they're either using a 10.5cm turbine housing on the VIII/IX, or 12cm on the X. Backpressure's going to be reduced, improving flow and durability across the board.

If I were you I'd leave the boost where it's at and work on improving the tune. Back in the day guys were running low 11's and even into the 10's with 20G's @ 18psi because there weren't injectors sizes and tuning platforms like we have today. You don't necessarily need big boost to make power with an efficient compressor wheel.

 

[turtleb00st]

I was not aware of the housing diffs on the evo... But people are turning 68htas to 30psi spikes all day on a smaller hotside than even I got. Not saying its good but its being done. I Really do appreciate the info though. I'm hopefully hitting the track on sat shooting for over 125 traps in my full weight 1g on 28 or so just the way the car sits now. Well see what happens

Tune wise I'm already at 20 degree advance at upper rpm don't want to push it too much although my motor is Ross/eagle. Don't have time to dyno to see where it becomes less powerful and more dangerous timing wise.

 

[JusMX141]

But people are turning 68htas to 30psi spikes all day on a smaller hotside than even I got.

Yup, I've rebuilt three of them so far using upgraded thrust hardware to help control thrust loads a little better.

I could give a shit whether you listen to me or not- just be aware when you cook the turbo from running too much boost and damage the wheels, you'll be sending it back to FP and paying whatever they tell you because they don't sell parts to the public.

 

[turtleb00st]

Yup, I've rebuilt three of them so far using upgraded thrust hardware to help control thrust loads a little better.

I could give a shit whether you listen to me or not- just be aware when you cook the turbo from running too much boost and damage the wheels, you'll be sending it back to FP and paying whatever they tell you because they don't sell parts to the public.

I take it your not a high zink oil content no thrust failure fp cool aid drinker

 

[JusMX141]

You need to use high-zinc oil all the time regardless of whether your turbo wants it or not. Every 68HTA I rebuilt still had the OEM Mitsu thrust hardware which was on it's way out; not saying the oil type would've done anything, but our cars were built in a time when all oil still contained higher amounts of ZDDP than any modern non-racing type of oil.

...and I love KoolAid, especially the new Cherry LimeAid flavor.

 

[turtleb00st]

I have dks 272 cams right now. Did some research and it appears the gsc s2s should get me another easy 20hp and Probably closer to 30. Going to keep the boost where it is now and just throw these in... The cams should get me the power I need for a few more mph

 

[95_gsx_2g]

Just wanted to put my opinion in about this. I run the 71 hta billet antisurge on my dsm, non ported and I do have to say I like it sooooo much more then my evo3 16g, hits boost like nothing on stock cams! Great work Forced Performance! But I run 20 or so psi and it doesn't fall off all the way till red line with there standard internal waste gate and 3 full turns (6 half turns) of preload on my Forced Performance turbo. Not to mention I am on my hallman pro rx with a soft spring in for now tightened all the way down till I get retuned. So otherwise I would say check good for leaks too or any small problems. I know I can get 30+ if I switched to my hard spring in my hallman and add a bit more preload! Also check out on extreme psi and other good websites they sell aftermarket aculators and arms like hks and extreme sells a turbo smart aftermarket aculator.

 

[turtleb00st]

Well I got it done, javi at gato performance hacked up my holset wg welded on the fp rod and mounted it on the bracket. Great work for a very great price, thanks. I haven't drive it yet so we will see how much more boost it holds. Maybe the turbo won't last long if so mr Justin you can say I told you so when I send it to you once the thrust bearing goes to shit and I want a sl2 wheel. Going to keep a close eye to avoid compressor wheel damage

If anybody needs pics let me know

And 95 gsx I highly highly doubt you will even be able to see a 30psi spike let alone hold 30 no matter what especially if you have good cams and an intake manifold, at the end of the day it's a td05 wheel. More boost isn't always more power but we will see how this affects my traps next track outing

 

[turtleb00st]

Wow finially got a chance to try to retune still have no boost controller on it. Hit it in 3rd and got 33psi had to let off. On a composite and reg arps for now. Pulled crazy hard though def 126ish if not more. Going to put my boost controller back on and try to get 30/31 psi spike and let it settle lower.