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Forced Induction Idea

Posted by ninja250r, Dec 13, 2011

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  1. silicosys4

    silicosys4 Proven Member

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    This is like reinventing a square wheel. What if.....What iffff..... WHTTTHFF...WTF. Use that brain filter.
     
  2. Jon91TSi

    Jon91TSi Proven Member

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    Exactly.. Don't you think the big boy tube chassis guys would be chomping at the bit for this if it was viable? It simply isn't.. Look what happens when an intercooler pipe blows off, immediate pressure drop because of the large volume of air lost. There is no way a tank could effectively supply that much volume. Besides, don't you think it would be a pain in the balls refilling each and every time you make a pass or a dyno pull? Good theory, bad practice.
     

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  3. Black-Out

    Black-Out Proven Member

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    I watched it from begining to end....That was a bad ass video....I always wanted to see the videos behind the development of the DV series Cosworth engines....where can I find more of these...I'm still slack jawed that they spun a Cosworth YB series engine up to 11,000rpm before failure..WTF It's just mind bending when you consider the YB is loosely based off of a Pinto engine block.......absolutely nutz!

    William-
     

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  4. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    Bonus points for thinking outside the box but somebody missed a conversion. 505 CFM is at 15psi, not that it matters. The above math was all in cubic feet not gallons. Convert it. 505cfm is 8.41 cubic feet per second. This is in FEET cubed. 8.41 cubic feet is 63 Gallons and that's every second. It isn't feasible. If somebody wants to figure air mass go ahead. The volume of air is large and isn't going to be contained by any reasonable sized tank for any period of reasonable driving time.
     

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  5. knochgoon24

    knochgoon24 DSM Wiseman

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    That's my fault. I saw 8.41666 on my calculator, had a dyslexic moment, thought 8.14666 instead, and rounded to 8.15. At 3am, I also didn't take into account what pressure that was at, hence the random 25psi.

    I don't see how the conversion from cubic feet to gallons is important. All the rest of the math was done using cubic feet. :confused:

    The mass airflow is 8.42 cu ft/s * 0.0739 lb/ cu ft = 0.622 lb/s = 37lb/min of air. Not sure where that argument was going.

    The great thing about the scuba tanks is that they are pressurized to 200-300bar (3000-4400psi). So a tank will hold 200-300 times it's volume in air. For short bursts, that's not the problem. Have you seen the compressed air powered concept cars?


    The real problem is that there are much cheaper and more practical ways to put pressurized air into an engine... aka. a turbocharger or supercharger.
     

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  6. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    Just for curiosity I went and crunched the numbers for mass air. Given that scuba tanks are pressurized well above say a shop air tank from a mass air standpoint you actually might have enough air. That doens't mean it's feasible. Here is my opinion why besides just cost. To get enough volume air flow at a reasonable pressure you would have to regulate it and have a BIG ass regulator to flow any volume. Up above 1000psi a regulator designed to control flow on even a 2" circular opening would have a force on it above 3000lbs. If even such a regulator exists it would have to be huge. You simply wouldn't be able to flow enough air even if you could carry it. High pressure tanks just aren't meant to flow those volumes. A quicker way to get more oxygen in the cylinder (which is the whole thing a turbo does anyway) is to use nitrous oxide. I'm sure some FSAE students have probably considered this before just as an exercise.
     

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  7. knochgoon24

    knochgoon24 DSM Wiseman

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    Some first stages say they're able to flow 60CFM+. Since I have little experience with scuba gear, I don't know what that number is measuring exactly and how first stages are set up.

    I wonder how many tech guys will feel comfortable letting a car with ten 3000+psi tanks run down the track.
     

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  8. xiteamxi

    xiteamxi Proven Member

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    Well i had this through the other day ..well on a more small practical scale a 26cc four stroke motor (had to much time on my hands ) as every one is saying here the flow is what gets you but after figuring out it would take a 20 oz tank with roughly 5000psi regulated at minor 3psi (assuming if could flow as need) for 10 mins of wot on that tiny motor..... then stop for a second and realize why don't you take the fuel system out and save weight because your practicably making a pneumatic motor....i believe it could be effective on a small motor 50cc or less were its not possible to get a smaller turbo that will work and a super charger would be to much drag on such a small motor ...just my .02
     

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  9. evileagleawd

    evileagleawd Proven Member

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    Volume vs psi there is a big difference!
     

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  10. Rob10_99

    Rob10_99 Proven Member

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    So you would run two tanks and get a 6 second awd record!
     

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  11. 4g63tc

    4g63tc Proven Member

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    One other thing...Added weight of 10 Scuba tanks, Tanks filling at over 3k Psi are steel, and not Aluminum.
     

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  12. HIGHPSI4

    HIGHPSI4 Proven Member

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    As stated above, the key here is not pressure but volume. You are going to have a tube coming from the supply tank to the intake manifold which will empty into the IM. The IM will have to have a continious pressure of 30psi. Off the EVO.net site a 14B is rated at (TDO5H-14B-6CM2 405 CFM). So, if you go up to some of the larger turbos you are talking 1000+ CFM. Now, old school V8 carbs are rated in CFM. For the pressured air to work you are going to have to have a HUGE, very thick steel pressurized tank. This tank will probably be too heavy for your car chassis and you will have to mount it on a trailer. This is why NOS has been used. You get the O2 in a smaller package and it is the 'power adder' rather than the turbo.
     

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  13. 1gdsmftw

    1gdsmftw Proven Member

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    There is a word for this type of induction....It's called nitrous oxide.
     

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  14. RWD4G63

    RWD4G63 Proven Member

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    Exactly what I was going to say.
     

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  15. low_n_slow95

    low_n_slow95 Proven Member

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    Why not scrap it all and throw in a flux capacitor? Lol. Interesting idea but even if you did get it to work think of how much weight you would be adding to the car.
     
  16. ramsack

    ramsack Proven Member

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    This just isn't feasible. The weight of the metal needed to contain this much air, and still supply full pressure and full flow by the end of the run will negate any benefits this may bring over having to spool a mechanical device. This is almost like the idiotic concept of the electric car.
     
  17. FlyinTalon

    FlyinTalon Proven Member

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    would be cool as hell to see something like that work
     

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  18. stuckwithgsx

    stuckwithgsx Proven Member

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    I don't see this working well, but I can see it working.

    Now I want someone to experiment just for fun :D
     

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  19. gusu

    gusu Proven Member

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    If you are going to think of stupid, over the top ideas. Why not have a laser cooled intercooler where the air goes through a bose einstein condensate. Where the air would be cooled to a temperature so close to absolute zero that if you were to write it out it would go around the length of the world slightly more than once if the amount of zeros before the first 1 were written at size of a number 2 pencil lead.

    Truthfully this is a lot more practical as you'd just need bad ass alternators, a special air intake box, ballasts and a very large very heavy duty battery. The lasers aren't hard to get your hands on if you know where to go looking and I'm sure some university would be very interested in the practical application this would have.

    The hardest part would be warming the air back up in time to make sure you can actually flow enough fuel for such a application.

    The truth is, I thought of this in the past as a laser cooled intercooling set up because the air would be forced to reach a much closer to a workable temperature. I went as far as to look it up, this idea has ACTUALLY been applied and tested on a hydrogen fuel cell car in an attempt to burn all of the hydrogen gas in the most efficient way possible.

    I'd love to find the article but the one I had saved is now a dead link.

    But, oh man... I love over the top sh**.
     
  20. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    This is exactly what I was thinking when I read this thread. Any high pressure regulator that I've ever seen is meant to flow low volume.

    ninja250r - One important thing to learn from this thread is that boost doesn't make power. 'PSI' is intake restriction. Air volume is what an engine needs to create power. And a shop air compressor isn't design for high volume air flow. 100 PSI does nothing for an engine at 10 CFM.
     

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  21. stuckwithgsx

    stuckwithgsx Proven Member

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    What if someone left their setup just the same as it currently is, and then added this guy's idea?

    The turbo would push X amount of air, and then at X time the air tank valve opened and added a little bit more?

    Like nitrous, or water/meth. I'm sure it could be tuned even with ecmlink or most a/f controllers.

    It might not be a very big gain, but doesn't every little bit help? Or could it even work at all? Could someone tune the system to add the air between say 7k-9k? Keeping the powerband up where it typically drops off? That way by the end of the track you've really only used it for 3 seconds?

    I'll admit that i'm not completely knowledgeable of how a turbo charger works, but forced air is forced air all the same right? (generally simplifying)

    Just brainstorming....:hmm:

    Edit* Didn't see paul's post above. Could you please explain that a little further? Why would say 200 psi not help at 10 cfm?
     

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  22. 99gst_racer

    99gst_racer Moderator

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    It's because 10 CFM of air is so miniscule. That's less than 2% of what a 16G is capable of flowing. You would gain far more with just 1 PSI more boost.

    The air compressor in your garage works with high pressure and low air volume. Our cars use low pressure and high volume. They are completely different animals and cannot be interchanged sucessfully.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2014

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  23. stuckwithgsx

    stuckwithgsx Proven Member

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    Makes a lot of sense. So something like a bead blaster would be more efficient? Not exactly possible, especially with tuning and consistency, but in theory?
     

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  24. silicosys4

    silicosys4 Proven Member

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    I think you guys are all missing the point. A turbo is more efficient. Debate pink unicorns and the existence of kiebler elves all day long, it doesn't make it a good or useful conversation. You can stuff a bunch of dwarves into your trunk, have them all blow into a tube piped into your manifold....IN THEORY it would work, BUT ITS A DUMB IDEA. IT IS INFERIOR TO A PREEXISTING METHOD.
     
  25. romeen

    romeen DSM Wiseman

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    You could probably make it work although I don't know if the gains would be noticeable. The added complexity, weight, packaging/space, etc would make it counterproductive.

    Since you mentioned it, water/meth injection doesn't add any air to the mix. It works on a completely different principle. ;)
     

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