electric forced induction?

[bkruahnndon]

alright so i'm laying in bed last night and i was thinking, why hasnt somebody developed an electric turbocharger? something like a vacuum cleaner ya know. they put out tons of air (on the blower side of course) why not integrate something like that into the intake system of a car? it wouldnt have the parasitic power loss that turbos(even though small) and superchargers take from the engine. not necessarily a DSM but any car in general.

anybody know why something like this hasnt been developed. with the exception of those small and underpowered tornado things people put in their intake pipes to "increase fuel economy" and what not


any info would be appreciated

 

[Denji]

Ummm.. electric superchargers have been around...noone really knows/cares about them because they suck.

 

[Boostmonkey]

Why do they suck? you can get a decent 12v motor that blows like hell with the right fan on it

 

[CyberEye]

Ummm.. electric superchargers have been around...noone really knows/cares about them because they suck.

indeed, they've been around for a while. Hell people have put leafblowers on their car before. If you look hard enough you can probalby find one on ebay. I've seen them there before.

 

[IHeartTurbo]

Turbochargers don't create a parasitic loss.

 

[IHeartTurbo]

Why do they suck? you can get a decent 12v motor that blows like hell with the right fan on it

And still only push 1 psi....

 

[Denji]

haha 1 psi for like 15 seconds. Turbochargers push an amazing amount of air.

 

[Denji]

Why do they suck? you can get a decent 12v motor that blows like hell with the right fan on it

your right, they do "blow"

haha, i'd like to see a guy in a honda pull up to me at a light, pop his hood, jump out and start the leafblower sitting in his engine bay! :laugh:

 

[Spln_Hrd]

Turbochargers don't create a parasitic loss.

they do have downsides, they put a large amount of backpressure in the exhaust before the turbo and they also create intake heat. not that it doesn't outway it in the end.

as for the electric motor, i have seen some kits that didn't look that bad. they used capacitors to store power and would work for a 15 second burt when you push the button.
the kit was 800 bucks though, and for that price you can get a 15 second burst of nitrous which would be alot more benificial.

also i am not sure how much pressure that other kit made and i never seen one on a car but the idea didn't sound completally retarded like most of them do.

 

[Thomas91169]

i know about a certain project that will be using a eaton M90 that is powered by an electric motor, that will be going onto a heavily modded thunderbird SC. so in effect it is an electric supercharger.

 

[timm98gst]

here's one - looks like a waste of money
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7945341033&category=33742

 

[Ðawg]

alright so i'm laying in bed last night and i was thinking, why hasnt somebody developed an electric turbocharger? something like a vacuum cleaner ya know. they put out tons of air (on the blower side of course) why not integrate something like that into the intake system of a car? it wouldnt have the parasitic power loss that turbos(even though small) and superchargers take from the engine. not necessarily a DSM but any car in general.

anybody know why something like this hasnt been developed. with the exception of those small and underpowered tornado things people put in their intake pipes to "increase fuel economy" and what not


any info would be appreciated

Sell your car, buy a Honda plskthxbye.

 

[wdl]

here's one - looks like a waste of money
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7945341033&category=33742

The industrial revolution brought us cars and something besides two cans and a string to use as a communications device, why put the tin can back into use now?

-Will

 

[Thomas91169]

wow i cant believe people even still list that crap on ebay. 145cfm, shit you can put your mouth on the intake and blow more than that.

 

[Defiant]

DIE! DIE! DIE!
I banish thee to oblivion, wicked electric supercharger thread!

God, we type and type and type and type, and explain over and over, and like mushrooms after a warm rain, they still pop up.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152788
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150441
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148433
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128615
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127770
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134889
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129301
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128515
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126979
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59697
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117905
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117756
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116315
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113749

Look, it's really as simple as this: by putting a turbo on a 2-liter, you gain 60 horsepower. That's more than many small cars' engines put out. How big a wire do you suppose you'd need to generate that? Ever see a 60-horsepower electric motor? Ever try to pick up a FIVE horsepower electric motor? No free lunch.

Next time you're in bed, just go straight to sleep.

 

[timm98gst]

Next time you're in bed, just go straight to sleep.

or think about hot girls like i do

 

[99gst_racer]

Yes, they exsist. There was a booth at SEMA that had a company that claimed that they engineered an efficient one. They showed that it would compress 8lbs, but it cant run constantly like our turbos can. They arent efficient enough to always be on, due to how much electric power it takes to operate them. The one at SEMA even looked just like a turbocharger with a motor where the turbine housing usually is. I cant remember the name of the company.....

 

[Defiant]

The one at SEMA even looked just like a turbocharger with a motor where the turbine housing usually is. I cant remember the name of the company.....

Was it Knight's? It uses three starter motors -a good hint at the power supercharging takes (which includes supercharging with a turbo)- and requires an additional battery to store up the amperage to run them. Which is flattened when you use it, and needs to be charged back up for the next 20-second burst. Which will be coming from your alternator, which is also taking energy from your engine.

It just doesn't work.


It's so lonely out here.

 

[91boost]

It's so lonely out here.

Don't worry. Your NOT alone.

 

[99gst_racer]

Was it Knight's? It uses three starter motors -a good hint at the power supercharging takes (which includes supercharging with a turbo)- and requires an additional battery to store up the amperage to run them. Which is flattened when you use it, and needs to be charged back up for the next 20-second burst. Which will be coming from your alternator, which is also taking energy from your engine.

It just doesn't work.

Yeah, that sounds like the one. There were about 15 people standing around the booth watching the display and I seemed to be the only one asking questions, trying to disprove his acusations. He stated that after the initial burst, that the compressor wheel is spinning at about 130K RPM and that after the power is cut that it would continue to drive itself by it's own inertia and momentum. Dont worry, I didnt believe anything he said. After I asked about 3 questions, I got the stank eye and he turned his back to me. These electric superchargers are a joke. Every manufacturer admitts that the models in the past failed to perform adequately, and they all claim that their model is the one that works......

 

[kelvinb]

alright so i'm laying in bed last night and i was thinking, why hasnt somebody developed an electric turbocharger? something like a vacuum cleaner ya know. they put out tons of air (on the blower side of course) why not integrate something like that into the intake system of a car? it wouldnt have the parasitic power loss that turbos(even though small) and superchargers take from the engine. not necessarily a DSM but any car in general.

anybody know why something like this hasnt been developed. with the exception of those small and underpowered tornado things people put in their intake pipes to "increase fuel economy" and what not


any info would be appreciated

ban

:laugh:

 

[Defiant]

He stated that after the initial burst, that the compressor wheel is spinning at about 130K RPM and that after the power is cut that it would continue to drive itself by it's own inertia and momentum.

Well, it'd coast sure enough, but it won't be doing much boosting in that state. As it seems you realize, air at those speeds and pressures becomes a very significant thing. Disbelievers, do the old hand-out-the-window at 70. And that's nothing compared to the intake flow of an engine.

Dont worry, I didnt believe anything he said. After I asked about 3 questions, I got the stank eye and he turned his back to me.

Beauty! You should get a medal

These electric superchargers are a joke. Every manufacturer admitts that the models in the past failed to perform adequately, and they all claim that their model is the one that works......

I have a perpetual-motion machine I've almost perfected, if I can just get it to keep running....

 

[psychlow]

I have a perpetual-motion machine I've almost perfected, if I can just get it to keep running....

I want to buy it when you complete it, Defiant!

/Sigh.

Yeah, a supercharger is not going to spin for very long under boost after the power applied to move it 130K RPM is removed. Ever tried to hold 8PSI of pressure by hand? It's pretty damn hard (it can be done, but it's not easy). Now picture a supercharger blade trying to compress ambient air, which has to spin at over 100K RPM to compress the air - I imagine it'll take less than a second or two for the supercharger to start spinning in reverse from the air in the intake venting back past the compressor wheel - or, if the engine is at a high enough RPM and the throttle plate is WOT, the air in the intake will be used up so fast there is no way the compressor wheel will keep up.

Defiant, regarding what you said about a 60HP electric motor:
The motor doesn't have to be 60HP, it only has to be about 5 or so - it just has to move air. The additional energy is provided by the additional fuel you can burn. But let's look at it this way -

5 horsepower = 3,728 watts

Our alternators produce 90-110 amps. 12V * 110A = 1,320 watts.

So we get 1,320 watts MAXIMUM from our charging system gross (not counting power used by heat, ignition, ECU, lights, charging the battery, radio, etc) , when a 5HP electric motor at 100% efficiency (good motors are usually close to 95-98% efficient) needs 3,728 watts to produce a mere 5HP.

Does anyone else see why it doesn't work well? You'd need a 400 amp alternator to keep up with the demands of a 5HP electric supercharger. A 400 amp alternator (or 4 100 amp alternators) would take a massive amount of power (parasitic loss) to move due to the strength of the magnets (or the gearing), and also weigh a couple hundred pounds. Then you'd have to have a battery setup to store all this power (another 100lbs).

Rather than all that trouble, why not drive the compressor wheel with a turbine wheel in the exhaust (TURBOCHARGER) or a belt off of the crankshaft (SUPERCHARGER?)

 

[Defiant]

Defiant, regarding what you said about a 60HP electric motor:
The motor doesn't have to be 60HP, it only has to be about 5 or so - it just has to move air. The additional energy is provided by the additional fuel you can burn.

I was figuring on the amount of horsepower I've heard a Roots blower sucks off the crank. I don't know if centrifugal-vane compressors are much less load.

 

[polarmoment]

Was it Knight's? It uses three starter motors -a good hint at the power supercharging takes (which includes supercharging with a turbo)- and requires an additional battery to store up the amperage to run them. Which is flattened when you use it, and needs to be charged back up for the next 20-second burst. Which will be coming from your alternator, which is also taking energy from your engine.

It just doesn't work.


It's so lonely out here.

it was probably turbodyne- they were at SEMA according to their website: www.turbodyne.com. they've been around for a few years. i first noticed them about 5 years ago. they claim it can sustain 5psi for a few seconds operating on a seperate power system. it seems that as far as their marketing strategy is concerned, they're not specifically talking about using it as a sole means of forced induction, only as an "instant-on" manner of creating boost while the turbo is spooling, minimizing lag.

their first prototypes were a simple electric motor (and possibly a transmission of some sort) that spun up a compressor. supposedly, they are now contracted by IHI to focus more on using motors sandwiched in the CRHA of a normal turbo to assist with spool up (doesn't garrett have some prototypes like this too?). it seems they were looking into using the motor as a generator at high boost, using the current flow out of the generator as a means of keeping impeller speeds in check (instead of physically opening a wastegate).

it's an interesting concept regardless of real life practicality. pretty far removed from those damn bilge fans on ebay.