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Forced Induction Idea

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ninja250r

Probationary Member
7
0
Oct 2, 2011
VERO BEACH, Florida
Anyone ever thought of the elimination of a turbo, a manifold and such and using a high volume air tank to force air into the motor for drag racing only?

I mean you use a air compressor for a boost leak test it pressurises the intake.
if you could have a tank big enough to hold 30 psi for 10 seconds leaking out wouldnt it be instant 30psi no lag?
the idea would be tune it with a turbo so it has a general idea of say (30) pounds of boost but have the air tank force it in instantly which would make it either blow or wake up instantly with no lag.

thought sounded awesome, think its a possible idea?

I mean all you dsm guys use 2 steps to make boost on the line but imagine being able to rev to any rpm and as soon as you open the tank its instantly the set psi you have regulated, then when out of air its back to n/a
spend 1500$ on a 42r or spend 350 on a campbell and hausfeild :)
 
There are two things wrong with this theary..

A turbo compresses air yes..But the air flowing from a 14b, compared to a holset or gt35 is not the same as using 30 psi of compressed air..The volumes or air being shot into the intake are different than an air compressor..



The other flaw is..How are you going to run this compressor..Belt driven I assume...Why not just supercharge an engine and be over with it..

A turbo works by taking something useless and making it into something good..Like taking poo, and p and making it into something useful..
 
you can fill a air tank up and it will hold the air, it doesnt have to be plugged in to keep air in a tank. its not for a daily driver its a theory for "Drag Racing" because opening a air tank shoots out more air than a turbo i would imagine
and if the pressured air could match what 30 pounds (example) could flow on a turbo, it would be instant wouldnt it?
 
you can fill a air tank up and it will hold the air, it doesnt have to be plugged in to keep air in a tank. its not for a daily driver its a theory for "Drag Racing" because opening a air tank shoots out more air than a turbo i would imagine

You should google how turbo's work. Because you dont seem to grasp what was just explained to you.
 
i doubt the weight differences or perceived benefit of an air tank would off set swapping out the turbo. besides are you just gonna run down the track then get a tow cause your a/f ratios are off?
 
*fliches* has the world ended yet?

Seems legit :banghead::banghead::banghead:
 

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This is actually how f1 engines used to be tested.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/xbB1qwhKaaE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
seems to me the only guy that grasps this idea is donnie and pneumo.... all you others seem like smartasses that dont like to think out of the box or think you know it all....
anubis, i know how a turbo works.... actually im not gonna explain myself....
if a/f ratios are off because theres no air going into the motor it still could run for a few seconds afterwards.... if you have a boost leak on your car it doesnt just shut completely off
 
seems to me the only guy that grasps this idea is donnie and pneumo.... all you others seem like smartasses that dont like to think out of the box or think you know it all....
anubis, i know how a turbo works.... actually im not gonna explain myself....
if a/f ratios are off because theres no air going into the motor it still runs dont it?

If you "know how a turbo works" then you should know how much air is consumed by your motor vs how fast a tank could be recharged and how it would sustain itself during WOT. Its funny to me.

Do you see how large the compressor is in the video posted? It doesnt prove your point at all unless you are getting at pulling a trailer behind you that weighs as much as your car does. Its just impractical every way you look at it.
 
also that 30 psi air pressure from the tank is thru a small hose..u would need such a large tank to force enough air into the tb to get to 30 psi that u wont have any trunk space.. and added weight to the car.
interesting thought tho..



Steve
 
If you "know how a turbo works" then you should know how much air is consumed by your motor vs how fast a tank could be recharged and how it would sustain itself during WOT. Its funny to me.

Do you see how large the compressor is in the video posted? It doesnt prove your point at all unless you are getting at pulling a trailer behind you that weighs as much as your car does. Its just impractical every way you look at it.

ok in less than 3 seconds at WOT a average air tank is consumed.
if your building a "Drag Racing Car" thats ONLY meant for the "TRACK" thats almost 3 "AVERAGE" scuba tanks if not 4.
we just almost made 10 seconds of WOT air give or take according to your information with 4 scuba tanks
now how can you claim that weighs as much as a dsm since you want to be 100% accurate.....

also that 30 psi air pressure from the tank is thru a small hose..u would need such a large tank to force enough air into the tb to get to 30 psi that u wont have any trunk space.. and added weight to the car.
interesting thought tho..



Steve

thanks glad to see more people think outside the box the 30psi is just a example go higher go lower
 
Last edited by a moderator:
ok in less than 3 seconds at WOT a average air tank is consumed.
if your building a "Drag Racing Car" thats ONLY meant for the "TRACK" thats almost 3 "AVERAGE" scuba tanks if not 4.
we just almost made 10 seconds of WOT air give or take according to your information with 4 scuba tanks
now how can you claim that weighs as much as a dsm since you want to be 100% accurate.....



thanks glad to see more people think outside the box the 30psi is just a example go higher go lower

I'm not knocking your creativity.. Just the impracticality of this idea. How exactly would you go about routing this? If you are going directly from the tanks to your TB then how do you think you would run your car once you are done? Its just not happening LOL.
 
I'm not knocking your creativity.. Just the impracticality of this idea. How exactly would you go about routing this? If you are going directly from the tanks to your TB then how do you think you would run your car once you are done? Its just not happening LOL.

this is where people throw in ideas (hence the title forced induction idea) and some race shop with lots of money down the road sees this and throws it together and makes a car tuned for 30 or 40 psi or even 10psi to hit instantly off the line running 6's or 19's without a 2 step.
imagine if your car could hit any desired boost level instantly on any rpm no turbo lag, just like a big shot of nitrious thats the theory behind it.
have a all wheel drive that could leave the line at 3500 rpms on 30 psi

my thought is one tank keeps the car barely running the other ones pre charged up fill a cyl with a regulator valve that you just open and it rushes in instantly. (lets get creative) that was the whole point of this thread
 
The volume of air needed to make and keep a full out race only engine run would exceed what that tank can hold.
 
In theory, with a big enough supply of compressed air and a system to get the air into the TB, it could be possible for a 1/4 pass. The problem is that there is no advantage compared to just running a turbo. Anti lag on dsmlink or ecuflash will give you the psi off the launch. It's a creative idea, but there is no advantage, so nobody would bother spending the money on r&d to see the idea through.

Also, some people seem to thinking you are talking about compressing the air on the fly. It sounds like the idea is to have the full tank ready to go before the 1/4 mile and refill inbetween runs.
 
Like everyone has said it's interesting, but so is cold fusion. The problem is that the volume of air required is very very large. 30 psi coming from a turbo is not equal to 30 psi in a tank, in the sense that a turbo will keep pressure at a constant far longer than a tank of air. Also tanks of air build up to a pressure and either hold that pressure or lose pressure. While a turbo can sustain a constant pressure. Unless you take the time to do the math it's almost impossible to get a tank of air or several tanks of air to preform the same way as a turbo. As soon as you go WOT the tank of air goes 30psi, 29psi, 28psi, ect. Even with 4 tanks it will degrade very very fast. Can it be done? Sure anything is possible. Its just that its a bit more impractical. Just for the record I'm not someone that works at McDonalds, I'm an HVAC technician with a background in engineering.
 
Instead of immediate flaming, let's do a little thought experiment. I'll assume you're going to use Scuba tanks just to make things easier.

Evo 3 16g flows 505CFM and the average guy might run a 12 sec 1/4 mi with it. Why not use this as an example.
505 CFM = 8.15 cu ft/sec
8.15cu ft/sec * 12 sec = 97.8 cu ft.

Typical tank pressure is ~200bar = 2900psi
So you can get (1 - 40psi/2900psi) = 98% of the air out of the tank. But flow drops as the pressure in the tank drops. Let's just say you can use more than 75% of the air. I think that's a valid factor.
98 cu ft / (21cu ft/tank * .75) = ~7 tanks per run.

What is the problem then?
Price.

7 Tanks @ $150ea - $1050
7 1st Stage Regulators @ $160ea - $1120

And we're not even to the hoses, fittings, or fabrication costs.
Figure another $1000-1500 for that, depending on material choices.

spend 1500$ on a 42r or spend 350 on a campbell and hausfeild :)
Not quite. I figure you're looking at $3500 min, but probably closer to $5000 for 16g performance. LOL


So it's a cost thing just as much as a practicality thing.


And to address some of the reasons suggested by other on why it wouldn't work:
-How would you hook it all up?
---Think second throttle body.

-How would you tune it?
---Speed density. Air is air.

-Tanks are available up to 18L, why not use one or 2 of those?
---Can you even get the air out 7 cylinders fast enough? Might need some custom machined 1st stage regulators for even 7 tanks... $$$
 
As others have already touched on, you need to remember that air pressure and air volume are two different things. 30 psi of air coming out of a shop blow gun is very different from 30 psi of air through a 3" diameter pipe.
 
As others have already touched on, you need to remember that air pressure and air volume are two different things. 30 psi of air coming out of a shop blow gun is very different from 30 psi of air through a 3" diameter pipe.

Agreed. You simply can't get enough flow from the tanks. At least without spending a ton of cash. And what about at idle? Since the system is closed, you will need to run air from the second the car starts.
 
I thought the evo 3 flowed 550cfms and the 16g was 505. As for the op, in theory as said would be interesting if it actually worked efficiently, but people have used nitrous bottles to help spool large turbos. Or the 2 step which seems to work quite well.
 
Instead of immediate flaming, let's do a little thought experiment. I'll assume you're going to use Scuba tanks just to make things easier.

Evo 3 16g flows 505CFM and the average guy might run a 12 sec 1/4 mi with it. Why not use this as an example.
505 CFM = 8.15 cu ft/sec
8.15cu ft/sec * 12 sec = 97.8 cu ft.

Typical tank pressure is ~200bar = 2900psi
So you can get (1 - 40psi/2900psi) = 98% of the air out of the tank. But flow drops as the pressure in the tank drops. Let's just say you can use more than 75% of the air. I think that's a valid factor.
98 cu ft / (21cu ft/tank * .75) = ~7 tanks per run.

What is the problem then?
Price.

7 Tanks @ $150ea - $1050
7 1st Stage Regulators @ $160ea - $1120

And we're not even to the hoses, fittings, or fabrication costs.
Figure another $1000-1500 for that, depending on material choices.


Not quite. I figure you're looking at $3500 min, but probably closer to $5000 for 16g performance. LOL


So it's a cost thing just as much as a practicality thing.


And to address some of the reasons suggested by other on why it wouldn't work:
-How would you hook it all up?
---Think second throttle body.

-How would you tune it?
---Speed density. Air is air.

-Tanks are available up to 18L, why not use one or 2 of those?
---Can you even get the air out 7 cylinders fast enough? Might need some custom machined 1st stage regulators for even 7 tanks... $$$




Wow all that detective work for 16g performance..Nicely done research tho:thumb:
 
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