For those of us that dont have money to waste

[Jarnutt]

Why is it, whenever I look into upgrading any aspect of my car, I'm blasted with a metric dickload of posts and topics demanding that you don't do anything to your car without purchasing dsmlink, getting a dyno, or a vafc2 or afr, OR all of the above?

All I wanted to know, is if I could run an e316g on my stock injectors. That's it. And I search, and I find, people are assholes with reeeeeally deep pockets. Many people have had the same question as me, and they have all been answered the same way, you need 550s, you need dsmlink, you need wideband, you'll blow up your motor, you'll shoot your eye out, and so on.

What happened to the days of grassroots tuning and upgrading? When you could buy an upgrade and not have to spend $1500 in supporting mods? I know IDEALLY dsmlink is the answer, as is a dyno, but what about those of us that don't have $200 an hour to spend on an AWD dyno and tune? ESPECIALLY for a DD.I have my stock t25 now, stock fuel system and a hotwired 190 pump.

All I want is for my ass dyno to be happy, I want my car to be as exciting as my h22 civic was. It already handles like a dream, and is quick but I want a little more, I want a little for not a lot, but it seems after the intercooler, and full intake and exhaust system, I can't do anyyhing else without buying an eprom and making my DD a race car. I spent $2000 over the last 7 years on my buick and got a 12 second V6 out of it, but I feel like $2000 on my DSM will get me a laptop and a socketed ecu with dsmlink and no money left to tune, yeilding no horsepower increase. Is there some recipies out there for those of us that don't have access to a dyno or deep pockets but want to have fun?

It just seems like the know it alls of the forum that already have dsmlink or dyno access, or money to burn, have taken the fun out of asking questions on basic upgrades, or big gains with little money. I paid $3k for my car, I don't want to spend $1500 in crap just to upgrade the turbo. I know the t28 is a good stock upgrade, but it also costs a ridiculous amount of money for less turbo than a small 16g. So where do we go from here? I don't want 300hp and 12's, I want 13's and no laptop to screw with, if my all motor civic did it, this 2 liter turbo bucket should do it easy.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Short answer is because the people that use upgraded turbo's with just a SAFC and nothing else and no upgrades or just bolt it on and run low psi run into problems. Idle problems, WOT problems. This isn't a Honda where you can modify it and nothing needs to be done. Every modification changes the amount of air entering/exiting the motor so it has to be compensated for it. I do very little dyno tuning so I see no need to waste $200 an hour for that but otherwise the SAFC's and Wideband and Loggers are there to protect the engine and owner. Not just to be fancy.

 

[Zdrummer15]

I don't think you realize that people tell you to get the supporting mods first not always because the car won't run properly without them, but because a bigger turbo at stock boost is likely going to make your car slower. You should be able to run a 16g easier then a t28 with no supporting mods. By easier I mean the t28 will help your car the least if either help at all. I also think you are blowing what those upgrades cost out of proportion. For the 2 grand that you mentioned, I think I could easily get my Talon in the 12's.

Walboro 190lph fuel pump = <$100
650cc injectors = ~$150
Evo III 16g turbo = $600
16g install kit = $150
Punishment Racing FMIC = $400
DSMLink V3Lite (when it is released) = $200-300 (I believe)
manual boost controller = $20-50

If you already have some basic, cheap mods like an upgraded intake and exhaust, this is all you would need to have a good 16g set up. You would most likely want to eventually upgrade things like the clutch, but who ever truly stops wanting to upgrade their car?

 

[viperlp01]

YOu can do it very cheap ... You just have to find deals.. I took my gsx to 12.9 with a 100 dollar maf-t, 80 dollar 680cc injectors, 35 dollars 190lph fuel pump, 100 dollar ACT 2600, 300 dollar FMIC, and a ebay 16g, and a 180 wideband.. Thats it.. Oo and race gas so i dont blow my shit up ... People do not want to give you advise that can possibly blow your car up.. They will give you the advise that you should do but you dont always have to do that

With that said you can go fast for cheap...

 

[falcon8r]

Sorry to hear that. 8 years ago I replaced my talons turbo with a s16g. I work on cars and my turbo supplier(TEC) said the 16g was on sale and would bolt right up. The talon was my wifes car and was not a hot rod at all. I have had a 10 sec daily driver for the last 10 years myself so I didn't care for the talon much. She drove 80,000 miles on that turbo with nothing but a hot wired oem pump and K&N air cleaner. Stock everything except the boost controller was messed with. It always ran fine and went like hell. I am now driving the car and first thing I did was add a wideband a/f and I saw that it runs so rich even at higher boost . I wish not to say how much boost the 450s will take at my 3000ft elevation. I was surprised to say the least. That's my experience. Tres...

 

[jeffo]

The main reason to upgrade turbos is to run more boost. As you raise the boost, eventually the t28 isn't going to be able to hold that much boost the whole way to redline. At that point you know you need a bigger turbo. But, upgrading the turbo before that is not going to yield much increase in performance, in my experience. That's why everyone tells you to get the supporting mods first, because you will see more HP increase from raising the boost safely than from just throwing on a bigger turbo. (The exception is really HUGE turbos that are much more efficient at low boost, move a lot more air, and don't heat the intake air up as much.) At the 17-18psi limit of the stock pump and injectors I doubt you will feel much if any butt dyno difference between your t28 and an EVO3 16G. The EVO3 turbo really only starts to shine at 20psi+, and is a great 24-25psi turbo.
The other reason you really need the supporting mods with the EVO3 turbo is that they tend to creep, unless you have the wastegate/turbine ported really well. That means instead of the 15psi you have your boost controller set at, you could end up at 25psi. Without the fuel to support it that could mean a blown engine. It is ALWAYS best to put the proper fuel support in place first, IMHO.

 

[nek]

Im going to be running my 16g with stock injectors @ 15psi untill I get a link/pump/inj.
Like what was said before, people run into problems when they upgrade mods in a certain order and people on here are just trying to help you avoid these problems. You dont HAVE to take their advice but your asking for it.

 

[Jarnutt]

Just seems that there would be an easier way of doing things, I find it hard to believe that the values stored in the ecu are so precise that you would have to reflash just to change to 550 injectors or a 14b turbo, or both. All I want is small upgrades, and all the searching I do, people have a hard on to spend a lot of money to do simple things. For instance, could I run 20 psi on a stock block if I use alky/ethanol? Simple question, most people would answer no, you need this this this and this, and then one person might say "I'm doing it right now with no problems, and then 20 people will tell them that lions tigers and bears are going to throw the crank straight out of their motor if they don't get DSMlink and tune it.

 

[the_mork]

I find it hard to believe that the values stored in the ecu are so precise that you would have to reflash just to change to 550 injectors

Then you would be wrong. There is absolutely NO GAIN from moving to larger injectors without being able to tune for them. The reason that people suggest tuning devices before turbo upgrades is because the tuning alone will actually make more of a difference than the turbo without something to tune with. There are also inexpensive options if you are willing to spend a fair amount of time reading and learning. I tend to suggest a DSM H8 ecu which comes out of the 98/99 cars and an openport 2.0 cable to flash it. That setup costs about $250.

There is also a reason that you need supporting mods in that these cars have very limited potential until you've taken care of a few little things and then they have HUGE potential all at once. The problem is that the fuel system, and the turbo (2g) are very well matched to stock power which means that they are not matched to increased power whereas the rest of the car is more than ready for nearly double the stock power. This isn't a Honda, you'll need to do things one step at a time and you'll need to do all the steps to enjoy all the rewards but when you do you will have a shiteating grin on your face. Also if you think modifying a DSM is expensive then just stop modifying cars at all because this is one of the cheapest platforms out there.

 

[jnbracing]

Here's an idea then... if you don't want to listen to "these people" then do it for yourself and report back the results. No one wants to risk someones car so they say what should be done not what you may be able get away with.

 

[MrBoxx]

The problem is, the vast majority of DSMers that don't install the recommended parts on their car to run XXpsi or use Y turbo get all butt-hurt when they go to the dyno and don't make the 300 hp that they think their car should make. And that's mostly because they don't have the tools to monitor how much knock the engine is seeing, or how much timing the ECU is pulling due to knock, or due to the SAFC that they have maxed out to accomodate 880cc injectors, which is only lying to the ECU forcing it to pull even MORE timing. Add to that the fact that they don't have a WBO2, so even though maybe they're not knocking, they're running stupid-rich and making no power.

Yes, you can make 300hp cheaply. You can run the stock injectors and an SAFC and a rewired fuel pump. But how long are you going to be able to do that for? A month? A year? What are your intake temps? What kind of timing are you seeing? What AFRs? Is your fuel pump overrunning your stock FPR? Since you're using a larger turbo and running more boost, your plastic 2g BOV is leaking half of that boost out. You re-used the stock oil-feed line which is all gummed up and now your turbo is starved for oil. And so on and so forth.

DSM'ers have gotten a bad reputation for being cheap bastards. And thus, DSM's have gotten a reputation for being unreliable. The owners aren't installing the correct supporting modifications which makes the car break more often.

You can mod cheaply and break stuff and make crap for power or you can spend a little extra cash, buy the best modifications that give you the most effectiveness and keep your car running SAFELY. Your choice.

 

[matthewdesigns]

OP, I ran a 16g on an otherwise completely stock car for months before I did any other mods. No problem. You'll be fine as long as you don't turn up the boost. You won't see a performance increase, but the potential will be there when you do a few other things.

It's not necessary to buy a lot of expensive stuff immediately. That being said, what everyone else is saying is true, too. They just don't want you to melt your motor .

Cheap upgrades to make running 16-17psi safer/doable with your car:
Rewire your fuel pump $20
Home made boost controller $10
Boost gauge $40
Porting of stock ex mani and o2 housing (not necessary for that kind of boost but helpful nonetheless) $30 in carbide bits, lots of free labor
Cone filter/adapter $70 new, less than that used
Free airflow mods: cutting the recirc tube flush inside the turbo intake hose, upside down/reverse stock 2g bov mod, BCS restrictor mod if not using an MBC...you can find all of those here on Tuners and probably more
Properly sealed ducting to the intercooler will help make the most of it.
SAFC's are getting cheaper by the day with all the other (better) tuning options out there, so if you want to run larger injectors eventually, you can grab one of these for $150 or less.

I'll also suggest that you really ought to have a logger or a wbo2 so that you can keep an eye on your car's actual operation. Logging setups can be had for $150 or less, wbo2 for $200+...one or the other could save you a sh!tload of money in rebuild costs. I ran for a couple of years with only a logger and it was plenty. If I had it to do all over again I would buy a wbo2 right out of the gate.

 

[1twistdtalon]

not to be an a$$.. but posting in a forum get everyone's thoughts and ideas and you have to take them and use what you can from them.. if you want to throw a bigger turbo on your car go ahead no one is stopping you. if it works great and if not you learned the hard way.

we all have done it some way im sure.

 

[Sp1kE]

You can do it cheaply and safely.
It's all the basic stuff man:

-Get a logger so you can watch for bad stuff. (evo scan, pocketlogger)
-Boost leak test and base timing check.
-Throw your stupid turbo on.
-Recheck for badstuff
-Throw on your damn boost controller
-turn up your boost 1psi at a time
-check for bad stuff
-Turn up the boost until you see badstuff on your logger
-Turn it back down 1 psi
-Your at the max powaa your car will run with safely.
-Recheck your car/logs once a week especailly if its your DD.

These cars need the upkeep in maintenance. Keep an eye on the logs and under the hood. You will be fine. If its not good enough for you, get read to dish out the $$

 

[xhackerekx]

Walboro 250lph fuel pump = $100
evo 8 560 injectors = $78
frankestain hybrid 18g turbo = $750
turbo install kit = $75
CRX FMIC = $350
ecu from 98 or 99 gsx gst = $88 on ebay
openport cable on ebay $78
ecuflash= free
evoscan data loger = 25
electronic boost controler hold good up to 45 psi on ebay for $110
aem WBO2 150 ebay
full exhoust CRX 3" 288 ebay need some modyfication just work fine
autometer EGT digital 110 read up to 2000F

 

[Force Fed 4g63]

The problem is, the vast majority of DSMers that don't install the recommended parts on their car to run XXpsi or use Y turbo get all butt-hurt when they go to the dyno and don't make the 300 hp that they think their car should make. And that's mostly because they don't have the tools to monitor how much knock the engine is seeing, or how much timing the ECU is pulling due to knock, or due to the SAFC that they have maxed out to accomodate 880cc injectors, which is only lying to the ECU forcing it to pull even MORE timing. Add to that the fact that they don't have a WBO2, so even though maybe they're not knocking, they're running stupid-rich and making no power.

Yes, you can make 300hp cheaply. You can run the stock injectors and an SAFC and a rewired fuel pump. But how long are you going to be able to do that for? A month? A year? What are your intake temps? What kind of timing are you seeing? What AFRs? Is your fuel pump overrunning your stock FPR? Since you're using a larger turbo and running more boost, your plastic 2g BOV is leaking half of that boost out. You re-used the stock oil-feed line which is all gummed up and now your turbo is starved for oil. And so on and so forth.

DSM'ers have gotten a bad reputation for being cheap bastards. And thus, DSM's have gotten a reputation for being unreliable. The owners aren't installing the correct supporting modifications which makes the car break more often.

You can mod cheaply and break stuff and make crap for power or you can spend a little extra cash, buy the best modifications that give you the most effectiveness and keep your car running SAFELY. Your choice.

Amen, the man speaks truth.

Sounds like you already have your mind made up. You can do what you want but I did the same thing for a few months, and my car actually felt slower than with the T-25, because I couldn't run much boost, and you're also going to have the boost creep problem, which makes driving the car no fun. After I built my motor and did ALL of the right mods, the car runs like a raped ape on the same turbo, 322whp on 23 psi on only an safc on a freakin mustang dyno. Do it right or your shit won't run right. It's not a Honda...

 

[oneslowwdsm]

at this thread. You don't need tuning to run a 16g on a 190 fuel pump. From my knowledge and experience, you will need tuning if you go bigger fuel pump like a 255 and bigger injectors.

16G + 18lbs
190 fuel pump (or stock rewired fuel pump)
BOV (stock BOV only hold stock boost)
Stock injectors

My friend ran a 16G and that setup^ for a very long time with zero problems. And it pulled like crazy.

You don't need SAFC, dsmlink, or any of that mumbo jumbo with this setup.

 

[joe sobo]

to run that turbo, i think you need at least a m.b.c, w.bo2,and a safc would not hurt at all. also the rewire is almost free

 

[MrBoxx]

at this thread. You don't need tuning to run a 16g on a 190 fuel pump. From my knowledge and experience, you will need tuning if you go bigger fuel pump like a 255 and bigger injectors.

16G + 18lbs
190 fuel pump (or stock rewired fuel pump)
BOV (stock BOV only hold stock boost)
Stock injectors

My friend ran a 16G and that setup^ for a very long time with zero problems. And it pulled like crazy.

You don't need SAFC, dsmlink, or any of that mumbo jumbo with this setup.

Riiiiiight. Because the stock ECU is totally set up to accomodate an extra 6psi from a much larger, more efficient turbo. Dude, people have maxed out stock injectors on 14b's at lower boost pressures. Every car is different. So what if his car "pulled like crazy." A T25 car will pull like crazy to a long-time Civic owner. So what if he had "no problems." How much power was he making with that 16g? How much power COULD he have made if he had DSMLink? Or a datalogger? What were your buddy's injector duty cycles? How was his timing? Knock? How close was he to detonating his motor? Ohhhh that's right; he didn't NEED to know that stuff with that setup. /sarcasm.

 

[xhackerekx]

Riiiiiight. Because the stock ECU is totally set up to accomodate an extra 6psi from a much larger, more efficient turbo. Dude, people have maxed out stock injectors on 14b's at lower boost pressures. Every car is different. So what if his car "pulled like crazy." A T25 car will pull like crazy to a long-time Civic owner. So what if he had "no problems." How much power was he making with that 16g? How much power COULD he have made if he had DSMLink? Or a datalogger? What were your buddy's injector duty cycles? How was his timing? Knock? How close was he to detonating his motor? Ohhhh that's right; he didn't NEED to know that stuff with that setup. /sarcasm.

 

[Benshooter]

Why is it, whenever I look into upgrading any aspect of my car, I'm blasted with a metric dickload of posts and topics demanding that you don't do anything to your car without purchasing dsmlink, getting a dyno, or a vafc2 or afr, OR all of the above?

All I wanted to know, is if I could run an e316g on my stock injectors. That's it. And I search, and I find, people are assholes with reeeeeally deep pockets. Many people have had the same question as me, and they have all been answered the same way, you need 550s, you need dsmlink, you need wideband, you'll blow up your motor, you'll shoot your eye out, and so on.

What happened to the days of grassroots tuning and upgrading? When you could buy an upgrade and not have to spend $1500 in supporting mods? I know IDEALLY dsmlink is the answer, as is a dyno, but what about those of us that don't have $200 an hour to spend on an AWD dyno and tune? ESPECIALLY for a DD.I have my stock t25 now, stock fuel system and a hotwired 190 pump.

All I want is for my ass dyno to be happy, I want my car to be as exciting as my h22 civic was. It already handles like a dream, and is quick but I want a little more, I want a little for not a lot, but it seems after the intercooler, and full intake and exhaust system, I can't do anyyhing else without buying an eprom and making my DD a race car. I spent $2000 over the last 7 years on my buick and got a 12 second V6 out of it, but I feel like $2000 on my DSM will get me a laptop and a socketed ecu with dsmlink and no money left to tune, yeilding no horsepower increase. Is there some recipies out there for those of us that don't have access to a dyno or deep pockets but want to have fun?

It just seems like the know it alls of the forum that already have dsmlink or dyno access, or money to burn, have taken the fun out of asking questions on basic upgrades, or big gains with little money. I paid $3k for my car, I don't want to spend $1500 in crap just to upgrade the turbo. I know the t28 is a good stock upgrade, but it also costs a ridiculous amount of money for less turbo than a small 16g. So where do we go from here? I don't want 300hp and 12's, I want 13's and no laptop to screw with, if my all motor civic did it, this 2 liter turbo bucket should do it easy.

I understand where your coming from. I just stepped into the import world myself. Most of my background is in oldschool VWs, small block domestic screamers, etc. I really wanted a new challenge that would be out of my comfort zone. I was always intrigued by the nature of "tuners" being that you can pull power by just adjusting the parameters of electronics and sensors. Although it isn't "free" power, it's more like potential power that I readilly available but you just need to the right tools to unlock this bonus power. With domestics you just bolt on and build what you want but you get what you get and that's it. A control freak like me prefers to be in control of everything the car is doing.

I think it's all extremely interesting, a perfect blend of technology and power.

The only thing i find very disheartening about DSMs are
the tranny issues. Build a fast car and drive it hard, then crap out a tranny every 10k is what I keep hearing. My car has a bunch of bolt ons but I'm not going any further with it until I can figure out a practical drivetrain solution.

But I digress, I think your attitude is a little off kilter IMO. All I can advise is read, read and read some more. I'd guess I spend 2 hours reading and researching for every 30 mins I'm under the hood. It sounds like you need to do a little more reading on how all the fuel system, sensors, etc work together, along with basic turbo theory and you'll see why it's so important to actually "tune".

And like a previous post said, LOOK FOR DEALS. I'm constantly on my local classifieds looking for parts. If your on a budget then retail pricing isn't going to get you far.

 

[Force Fed 4g63]

at this thread. You don't need tuning to run a 16g on a 190 fuel pump. From my knowledge and experience, you will need tuning if you go bigger fuel pump like a 255 and bigger injectors.

16G + 18lbs
190 fuel pump (or stock rewired fuel pump)
BOV (stock BOV only hold stock boost)
Stock injectors

My friend ran a 16G and that setup^ for a very long time with zero problems. And it pulled like crazy.

You don't need SAFC, dsmlink, or any of that mumbo jumbo with this setup.

Your lack of knowledge is clearly evident in this post, please go educate yourself before giving extremely poor advice

 

[oneslowwdsm]

Riiiiiight. Because the stock ECU is totally set up to accomodate an extra 6psi from a much larger, more efficient turbo. Dude, people have maxed out stock injectors on 14b's at lower boost pressures. Every car is different. So what if his car "pulled like crazy." A T25 car will pull like crazy to a long-time Civic owner. So what if he had "no problems." How much power was he making with that 16g? How much power COULD he have made if he had DSMLink? Or a datalogger? What were your buddy's injector duty cycles? How was his timing? Knock? How close was he to detonating his motor? Ohhhh that's right; he didn't NEED to know that stuff with that setup. /sarcasm.

I'm just saying, it ran perfectly fine. The OP asked if there is a way to make his car faster but by not putting a hole in his wallet. So I'm telling him it's possible. It may not be the safest thing for your car but it works. You can take all the risk by doing this but I'm telling you it is the best bang for your buck.

Sure he could make more power by actually tuning it and dumping even more money into his car but then you might as well go bigger with your turbo too, like .60 trim or a 20G.

 

[LTUDSM]

American cars are way cheaper to mod then Imports.They Need not much to get you to 11's
If you want to go cheap way,you wont have the car running right.... The guys out there are saying ,to get EcmLink,AFC or some other piggybacks to protect the engine.If you will avoid these tuning devices,that i mentioned above ,it will cost you alot more in a future. Why?! Because adding fuel/air,without monitoring whats going on in your engine (you won't feel that) or tuning will result in rebuilding the engine,which is really expensive,and rebuilding the engine there is no way to go cheap way (cutting corners). Throwing 190lph fuel pump ,adding 550's and 16g,the Wideband 02 and at least AFC must be added as well.not talking about logger or a bigger intercooler.Lets say you got 550's 190 and want to rise a bit of boost,you do that and then on a road you hear and feel Booom, thats a fuel cut,why?! Bigger Intercooler needs to be added.And thats on and on..... Rising boost=Thick wallet DSM'S ain't cheap man.....

 

[MrBoxx]

Bigger turbos require even more supporting modifications and tuning. If the point is to be a cheap-ass about it, then going bigger defeats the purpose.

Like I said, your friend's car may have "run just fine" but there are people who vent their BOV's to the atmosphere and their car runs "just fine", even though it IS affecting their AFRs. Or running a 255lph fuel pump without an AFPR, because it doesn't "feel different", even though they're overrunning their stock FPR and running higher fuel pressure in the rail. Just because it FEELS fine doesn't mean it's fine. You can't hear knock. The knock sensor can. You need to find out what IT hears, and you do that with tuning tools. Now, get ready for the shocker here...... SOME tuning tools, like DSMLink and AEM and a few others actually cost money! And SOME ARE EVEN FREE. Generally the ones that cost money will do other things, like actually tune the car, though, and that's why they're recommended over the free ones. I'm sure there are a few exceptions out there, but that's generally the way things go.

If you feel safe running your 16g at 18psi on the stock injectors and a rewired fuel pump without investing the money in a few other monitoring and tuning modifications, then so be it. But DO NOT come crying to us when you throw a rod through your block because your AFR's were 16:1 and you say you're done with DSM's because they're unreliable. Think I haven't heard that story before??