For those of us that dont have money to waste

[Jarnutt]

Why is it, whenever I look into upgrading any aspect of my car, I'm blasted with a metric dickload of posts and topics demanding that you don't do anything to your car without purchasing dsmlink, getting a dyno, or a vafc2 or afr, OR all of the above?

All I wanted to know, is if I could run an e316g on my stock injectors. That's it. And I search, and I find, people are assholes with reeeeeally deep pockets. Many people have had the same question as me, and they have all been answered the same way, you need 550s, you need dsmlink, you need wideband, you'll blow up your motor, you'll shoot your eye out, and so on.

What happened to the days of grassroots tuning and upgrading? When you could buy an upgrade and not have to spend $1500 in supporting mods? I know IDEALLY dsmlink is the answer, as is a dyno, but what about those of us that don't have $200 an hour to spend on an AWD dyno and tune? ESPECIALLY for a DD.I have my stock t25 now, stock fuel system and a hotwired 190 pump.

All I want is for my ass dyno to be happy, I want my car to be as exciting as my h22 civic was. It already handles like a dream, and is quick but I want a little more, I want a little for not a lot, but it seems after the intercooler, and full intake and exhaust system, I can't do anyyhing else without buying an eprom and making my DD a race car. I spent $2000 over the last 7 years on my buick and got a 12 second V6 out of it, but I feel like $2000 on my DSM will get me a laptop and a socketed ecu with dsmlink and no money left to tune, yeilding no horsepower increase. Is there some recipies out there for those of us that don't have access to a dyno or deep pockets but want to have fun?

It just seems like the know it alls of the forum that already have dsmlink or dyno access, or money to burn, have taken the fun out of asking questions on basic upgrades, or big gains with little money. I paid $3k for my car, I don't want to spend $1500 in crap just to upgrade the turbo. I know the t28 is a good stock upgrade, but it also costs a ridiculous amount of money for less turbo than a small 16g. So where do we go from here? I don't want 300hp and 12's, I want 13's and no laptop to screw with, if my all motor civic did it, this 2 liter turbo bucket should do it easy.

 

[oneslowwdsm]

Agreed. I do think if you're going to invest in your car you might as well do it right.

But none of you pointed out the possibilities. All of you just told him to tune his car and dump more and more money into it that he obviously doesn't have.

 

[MrBoxx]

But none of you pointed out the possibilities. All of you just told him to tune his car and dump more and more money into it that he obviously doesn't have.

Well, to be honest, I didn't see a technical question in the OP's first post. All I saw was a bi***-post.

I suppose at the end, there's a "How do I do this" question in the form of:

So where do we go from here? I don't want 300hp and 12's, I want 13's and no laptop to screw with, if my all motor civic did it, this 2 liter turbo bucket should do it easy.

But before I give you your answer:

That "bucket" as you call it is a piece of automobile and racing history. And this forum is dedicated to maintaining and modifying that "bucket." The members here have invested their time, money, sweat and blood into their various "buckets" and many of them have achieved great things with them. So please, show just a little bit of respect for the car you have chosen to modify.

Your all-motor Civic is nice and all, but now you're stepping up into a whole new ball game. It's time to forget 90% of everything your Civic taught you and everything you know about that and realize that your DSM is going to be just a little different. You might actually have to spend a little money to make it do what you want it to do. That said, these cars have the capability out of the box to go VERY fast with very little user input.

You want 13's? Get a 14b turbo, an MBC, a boost gauge, 1g BOV, a 190lp fuel pump, an SAFC, a logger, and a set of 550cc injectors. Install them. Do some pulls, log everything. Post the logs so we can help you tune. Go to the track, run a 13. There's your 13 second budget build.

 

[crusindregs]

In my case my turbo went and i just ordered a big 16g to replace it and only have a bov, intake, mbc, and boost guage. Will i be safe to run 15 psi with my stock fuel system?

 

[oneslowwdsm]

In my case my turbo went and i just ordered a big 16g to replace it and only have a bov, intake, mbc, and boost guage. Will i be safe to run 15 psi with my stock fuel system?

I'm pretty sure at 15 your safe but not positive. Stock fuel pumps usually cut out at 16lbs but that's with a stock turbo.

 

[MrBoxx]

We really can't say what's SAFE; that's kinda the point I've been trying to drive home. At 15psi, will your fuel injectors be at 80% or 99%? Will the IAT's cause you to knock a lot? You need a logger to see if that's SAFE. Until you know what's going on, keep the boost at about 12-13, which is about as close to stock as you can get on a 16g. It'll still be pushing more air at a more efficient rate than the stock turbo, so expect a small gain in power.

Fuel pumps don't really cut out at any boost pressure. Fuel cut occurs when the MAS sees too much air, usually due to boost leaks, or when the IDC's exceed 100%, if memory serves me correctly. And fuel cut can occur regardless of pump size, boost pressure, or turbo.

 

[oneslowwdsm]

We really can't say what's SAFE; that's kinda the point I've been trying to drive home. At 15psi, will your fuel injectors be at 80% or 99%? Will the IAT's cause you to knock a lot? You need a logger to see if that's SAFE. Until you know what's going on, keep the boost at about 12-13, which is about as close to stock as you can get on a 16g. It'll still be pushing more air at a more efficient rate than the stock turbo, so expect a small gain in power.

Fuel pumps don't really cut out at any boost pressure. Fuel cut occurs when the MAS sees too much air, usually due to boost leaks, or when the IDC's exceed 100%, if memory serves me correctly. And fuel cut can occur regardless of pump size, boost pressure, or turbo.

I thought fuel cut occurs when the pump does not "pump" out enough fuel so therefor, your engine cuts. That's why people actually get bigger fuel pumps (to send more fuel at a higher flow) Correct me if I'm wrong of course

Even when you're tuning your car, you're either running to lean or to rich. When you are running way to lean (meaning the pump is not sending out enough fuel) you will get fuel cut.

I never heard of a fuel cut when you have a boost leak. Either way, when you have a boost leak you won't do much actual boosting anyways so how are you going to get fuel cut?

Also, if I'm running a stock pump/turbo at 12lbs how am I going to fuel cut? You said it can occur regardless of pump size, boost pressure, or turbo.

 

[MrBoxx]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/frequently-answered-dsm-questions/186971-what-fuel-cut.html

WHAT CAUSES FUEL CUT?
Despite the rumors of fuel cut being caused by too low of fuel pressure, too small of injectors, high flowing exhaust, high flowing intake, or large turbos fuel cut is not directly caused by any of these. Fuel cut is actually caused by the ECU seeing more air entering the engine than it was originally programmed to use. This likely cooresponds with an injector duty cycle which is unsafe or unattainable. So basically fuel cut is caused by the MAF seeing too much air. Don't ask what too much air is....

WHY DO WE GET FUEL CUT?
Since fuel cut is caused by the ECU seeing too much air we get fuel cut by increasing the air flow through the MAF.

The most common cause of fuel cut is a boost leak, causing the turbo to push wayyyy more air than is necessary, thus drawing a ton of air through the MAS, much of which just leaks out.

 

[Jarnutt]

Well the shit storm that has erupted due to my post is pretty much what im talking about. theres two sides to this forum, those that are comfortable with minimal, and those that want to go big. IT IS a bi*** forum in a way, but only because of the people that want you to do it their way or it wont work. All I wanted to know, was if the stock fuel system could handle the 550cfm id be seeing on a 16g, with STOCK boost. A better question now is, why are there two distinctly different arguments to a "budget" build with lack of tune capabilities? I respect this car, its been my DD for a while, but to tell me to educate myself, I have tried, I know alot, and yet little about this car, you get posts on both sides of the spectrum, much like this forum, you guys are arguing on why a motor will blow up or not blow up, you have two sides to it, and its retarded, Im not starting a fight here, but i guess I accidentally did.

When I said bigger turbo, such as an E316G or t28, the mind set that erupted in pretty much everyone thats bad mouthing me, was that I want more boost, and thats the first place everyone seems to go, bigger turbo MUST mean more boost. The problem Ive run into, is that my t25 is crap, its dying, as are most, I however am not looking for more than 12-15 PSI. You guys are saying thats a waste? why would I replace it with a stock turbo, or a t28 which runs upwards of $600 and has little room to budge, when I could spend THE SAME money on something I could possibly use to its full potential when the speed bug bites me later, MUCH later, not to mention it flows more beautiful cold, dense air at the same boost. All I wanted to know, is if a 16G would run stock boost on a stock fuel system, and all of a sudden Im trying to be cheap on everything and dont know shit about turbo cars according to some of the more harsh comments. Im no DSM pro, but Im not a retard, Im a trained deisel heavy machinery AND automotive mechanic, who *gasp* DIDNT go to UTI, so I DONT think I know everything, but Id like to think after tuning and racing pretty much everything except mitsubishis and subarus, until now, Ive got potential to learn DSMs, if I can figure it out, no thanks to everyone who wants me to shut up if Im not going to do things the way they want me to do them. I appreciate even the negativity you guys are giving me, it helps me figure out where Im being dumb and not realizing it. I need a starting point, I need options, I need info that doesnt assume Im retarded or that I one of those people that thinks a BOV is an "upgrade" releasing craploads of hidden horsepower, or that a big turbo with nothing else will make my car run 12's and not melt my pistons or hammer all my bearings flat. Ive got pretty much all the bolt ons that you can bolt on without needing an AFC, AFR, VAFC, or whatever. I DO have an Apexi NEO, AND an HKS super AFR left over from other cars Ive raced, sold, and/or blown up, will I use them? possibly, if needed.

So to recap in case youre still pissed at me for some reason, I love my DSM, I know its not a honda, my honda didnt have a MAF , and I have tuned other cars, but this ones a pain in the ass if you arent familiar. Other than the Auto trans that is causing me grief, and the difficulty in tuning if you have no knowledge in it, Im just wondering why everyone is so hellbent on insisting that you spend alot of money, if there is no budget way, then say it, which most of you have, on the OTHER hand, alot of you have claimed that there IS a budget way. I dont mean CHEAP, I dont mean cut corners, I just mean, where do you go from here? I have the greddy BOV, FMIC, coil on plug with 300 coils, injen intake, automatic with IPT valve body, full stainless 3" back with test pipe and stainless ported O2, header, glowshift boost, trans temp, and crappy narrowband A/F gauge, hotwired pump, MBC, logger, pretty much everything in my profile. I cant go with injectors, bigger turbo, cams, or anything that I can think of, because all of the above require me to flash or get a tuner, and a dyno to unlock to potential.

 

[MrBoxx]

I dont mean CHEAP, I dont mean cut corners, I just mean, where do you go from here? I have the greddy BOV, FMIC, coil on plug with 300 coils, injen intake, automatic with IPT valve body, full stainless 3" back with test pipe and stainless ported O2, header, glowshift boost, trans temp, and crappy narrowband A/F gauge, hotwired pump, MBC, logger, pretty much everything in my profile. I cant go with injectors, bigger turbo, cams, or anything that I can think of, because all of the above require me to flash or get a tuner, and a dyno to unlock to potential.

Stock boost on a 16g doesn't mean that it's going to flow the same amount of air as the T25 on stock boost. Anytime you increase the amount of airflow, you increase your need for fuel. Basic tuning here. Even 12-15psi on the 16g MAY require larger injectors to be SAFE, whether you want to or not. You have a logger. You'll need to datalog everything once you install the 16g to see what your needs are. We can't say whether you will or won't need to upgrade injectors or get an SAFC until then. Like I said, every car is different.

Even still, you can still get a used SAFC and some 550's for cheap on ebay or in the classifieds. Is it the BEST way to do it? No. Will it probably work just fine for you? Yes, as long as you have your datalogger, accurate gauges, and don't reach beyond your car's means.

 

[Zdrummer15]

I don't think there were too many harsh comments on this thread specifically directed at you (OP). Anyway, if you had just simply asked if it was possible to run a 16g on a stock fuel system (knowing you won't see much of a performance gain), you would have simply got that answer (it's also been answered on many other threads). Many post such as my first, answered your original question which was why so many people tell you to get supporting mods first. If you want performance gains you need to up the boost, and if you want to that you have to install those supporting mods and tune it. And just to answer your last question, yes you will be fine IMO running stock boost on a 16g. If your t25 is about to go on you and you just don't want to buy another one, I can't blame you at all for wanting to buy a 16g. I would do the same thing and just buy the supporting mods as I could afford to and then up raise the boost when it was safe to.

 

[Jarnutt]

Stock boost on a 16g doesn't mean that it's going to flow the same amount of air as the T25 on stock boost. Anytime you increase the amount of airflow, you increase your need for fuel. Basic tuning here. Even 12-15psi on the 16g MAY require larger injectors to be SAFE, whether you want to or not. You have a logger. You'll need to datalog everything once you install the 16g to see what your needs are. We can't say whether you will or won't need to upgrade injectors or get an SAFC until then. Like I said, every car is different.

Thats very true, and more of an answer I was looking for. I know stock injectors wont do 20 psi, neither will the T25, but I wasnt sure if they would do 15 psi at 550 cfm from a 16g, or if that would be more than maxing them, or at lease coming close to 100%, I dont know what the ceiling is on these injectors, but I do know that if i go to a 550cc injector, I need something to tune them, thats where my AFR or my Apexi comes in to play, is that IDEAL? Not at all, but Its probably safe enough if youre not stupid with the boost, is "probably" a good way to judge your motors length of life? "probably" not.

Anyway, if you had just simply asked if it was possible to run a 16g on a stock fuel system (knowing you won't see much of a performance gain), you would have simply got that answer (it's also been answered on many other threads).

Those many other threads are the reason I started this one, I read enough of them to know that when someone asks if they can get away with installing a bigger turbo and not doing anything else, theres two sides, those who say yes, and those that say no, with a whole lot of reasons why on both sides.

 

[Zdrummer15]

Well I think that anyone that would tell you that you can run your car at much higher boost then stock without upgrading the fuel system (which requires some tuning device to compensate for the larger injectors) is just plain ignorant and wrong. Seeing as you seem to know that it is bad to do this, I don't think there should really be any dilemma.

 

[Jarnutt]

Well I think that anyone that would tell you that you can run your car at much higher boost then stock without upgrading the fuel system (which requires some tuning device to compensate for the larger injectors) is just plain ignorant and wrong. Seeing as you seem to know that it is bad to do this, I don't think there should really be any dilemma.

The question was never about me being able to run more boost on the stock fuel system, it was about the stock system being enough for the added airflow. I wasn't ssure if the stock system would handle over 500cfm at stock boost levels

 

[MrBoxx]

Thats very true, and more of an answer I was looking for. I know stock injectors wont do 20 psi, neither will the T25, but I wasnt sure if they would do 15 psi at 550 cfm from a 16g, or if that would be more than maxing them, or at lease coming close to 100%, I dont know what the ceiling is on these injectors, but I do know that if i go to a 550cc injector, I need something to tune them, thats where my AFR or my Apexi comes in to play, is that IDEAL? Not at all, but Its probably safe enough if youre not stupid with the boost, is "probably" a good way to judge your motors length of life? "probably" not.

Now we're talking. The 550cfm rating for the 16g doesn't really come into play. That's more of a best-case scenario ceiling. So just kinda forget that number. A more useable unit of airflow measurement is lbs/min. Using your logger, you can determine your airflow, and your injector duty cycles, and you can sorta use your O2 voltage to determine your rough air/fuel ratio (a wideband is obviously the ideal way) and you can use those figures to tell if you're in need of larger injectors or not.

As I mentioned before, some people find that they're in the safe range as long as boost doesn't get crazy, and some people find that, coupled with their other modifications, even 12psi will max out the stock injectors.

 

[richard33]

When I first bought my car (2g GST), it had a e3 16g @ 14lbs, stock injectors, and a walbro 255. It ran pretty hard. I got injectors but kept it at 14lbs and went to the track and went 14.3@104 and made 240whp. If your stock turbo is on its way out, defintely upgrade to some kind of 16g. You can pick one up for under 300 these days and get fuel pumps go for 50$ all the time in the classifieds. The fuel pump will flow enough for that turbo.

 

[knochgoon24]

From the way you're talking this is the route I'd go:

14b - Used/rebuilt ~ $150-250
J-pipe - $25
Reuse your t-25 coolant lines. Grind the holes in your 2g oil return to fit the 14b bolts
1g oil feed - $15
MBC - $15 (I recommend NXS off eBay - it works fine)
SAFC2 - $100 used
WBo2 - $180 (i found one for $100 used)
Evoscan and cable - $80 (if you have a laptop, +$100 for used laptop)

$500-600 sound good enough? The 14b with a bit more boost sounds fine for your goals.

 

[jeffo]

with STOCK boost

The problem is that your oriiginal post NEVER said anything about running stock boost. You said you wanted your butt dyno to be happier, which is why you got the answers that you got.

I wasn't sure if the stock system would handle over 500cfm at stock boost levels

That statement makes no sense, sorry. Just because a 16G has the *capability* to push 500-550cfm doesn't mean you will see that at 15psi. At 15psi its barely going to be pushing more than the stock t25 at 15psi.

my t25 is crap, its dying

You never mentioned that in your original post either. Certainly, if your turbo dies get a bigger one and keep the boost the same for now. BUT, as I warned you, the EVO3 16G tends to creep without the proper porting, so you could end up at 25psi instead of 15psi. What makes you think the t25 is bad??
The first, and most important mod that you should get is a logger. EVOSCAN + a USB logging cable is $50, money well-spent to make sure you aren't destroying your engine.

 

[Jarnutt]

The problem is that your oriiginal post NEVER said anything about running stock boost. You said you wanted your butt dyno to be happier, which is why you got the answers that you got.

Which is why I said people always assume bigger means more boost, my bad on not being clear.

That statement makes no sense, sorry. Just because a 16G has the *capability* to push 500-550cfm doesn't mean you will see that at 15psi. At 15psi its barely going to be pushing more than the stock t25 at 15psi.

the small 16g increases compressor flow over the T25 by 25% at 505 CFM at 15 PSI boost Supports 320 HP. It has a larger 7CM2 turbine housing.
the big 16g increases compressor flow over the T25 by 25% at 550 CFM at 15 PSI boost Supports 375 HP. It has a larger 7CM2 turbine housing.
the evo3 16g increases compressor flow over the T25 by 25+% at 550 CFM at 15 PSI boost Supports 380 HP. It has a larger 7CM2 turbine housings for reduced back pressure at high RPM. The EVO3 Big 16G features a slightly larger compressor wheel than the previous Big 16G. It also uses an improved turbine housing design, which offers better boost control

Larger compressor, less restriction, denser and colder air, more CFM doesn't mean more boost, I deal with that at work all the time, I build twin supercharged, twin turbo 2 stroke deisels, change the CFM into the motor at the same boost you get more Kw (Horsepower), Its on paper if you'd like me to fax you a loadbank sheet from one of my engines. Not being a dick, just saying CFM = PSI is a common misconception, and when people tell me to use the search, and these are the answers I get regarding 16G specs, if they are wrong, then using the search obviously doesn't help much, which is why I started this post, 2 sides all the time.

You never mentioned that in your original post either. Certainly, if your turbo dies get a bigger one and keep the boost the same for now. BUT, as I warned you, the EVO3 16G tends to creep without the proper porting, so you could end up at 25psi instead of 15psi. What makes you think the t25 is bad??
The first, and most important mod that you should get is a logger. EVOSCAN + a USB logging cable is $50, money well-spent to make sure you aren't destroying your engine.

Shaft play is puting the wheel dangerously close to the compressor, its tired, plus the oil seal pukes, I tried a rebuild, but its going the same route as the last one did. I know the e316G has issues, I don't have my heart set on it by any means, I was thinking maybe 14b or small 16G. I use an innova OBD2+1 scan tool on all my cars, it logs up to I think an hour of live streaming data, I've used it to find my misfires in the past on this car, so it works pretty well.

Once everyone calmed down this all started becoming constructive real fast.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

To shortly answer your question, you can run a 16g on 15psi on a stock fuel system with the 190lph pump you have. You will need an SAFC or SAFC2 though to add the extra fuel. Since we are only exposed to crappy 91 pump down here, in the summertime you are going to acquire some knock with the heat we get if you go any higher so I would say that is the limit. If you are looking to put a good setup together and not break the bank and basically go with the least amount of parts you need shoot me a PM and we can talk. There really isn't a need for spending a whole lot of money. Especially since they cracked the 98 and 99 ECU's to be flashable now.

 

[GSXSixteenG]

To shortly answer your question, you can run a 16g on 15psi on a stock fuel system with the 190lph pump you have. You will need an SAFC or SAFC2 though to add the extra fuel. Since we are only exposed to crappy 91 pump down here, in the summertime you are going to acquire some knock with the heat we get if you go any higher so I would say that is the limit. If you are looking to put a good setup together and not break the bank and basically go with the least amount of parts you need shoot me a PM and we can talk. There really isn't a need for spending a whole lot of money. Especially since they cracked the 98 and 99 ECU's to be flashable now.

I ran this setup for two years. But learned the hard way that its not the ideal for the long run. I only ran a rewired stock fuel pump with stock injectors with 16lbs creeping 18-19. I had a SAFC2, aluminum radiator, mbc, i think that is it... Yes it was fast and peppy for two years. Dyno'd 260awhp on a mustang dyno. But one hott summer day and a boost spike later I was due for a rebuild.

OP you can do it cheap and reliable. In the end though it will take good tuning and something to control fuel.

 

[TunaTalon]

Mitsubishi engineers designed the 2G turbo Eclipse with a balanced set of performance components. Good engineers tend to do that.

The T-25 turbo peak flow matches the 450cc injectors at about 270 SHAFT horsepower. The stock fuel pump was selected to support that 270 horsepower, and the side mounted intercooler was designed to match the flow of the T-25. The fuel/air mapping in the ECU gos a little beyond the 270 HP to allow operation in cold temperatures.

Changing any one of those components simply leaves the other parts as bottlenecks.

A bigger turbo with the stock injectors will not make more power than the injectors will handle.

Bigger injectors need some means of fuel control besides the stock ECU or it will run rich and make no more power.

A bigger turbo with upgraded injectors and fuel control will make more power until the stock fuel pump falls behind and the lean condition fries the pistons.

Upgrading the fuel pump makes the intercooler the bottleneck, or maybe the drive train.

The good news is that Mitsubishi cheaped out and used the mass air flow system from the 3000 GT and it’s good for the over 400 HP.

Don’t forget to upgrade the suspension and brakes or the bottleneck will be stopping short of something slow and heavy.

Enjoy.

 

[Force Fed 4g63]

You can slap a 16g on there for now, but I can tell you right now it's not going to be fun if you don't do all the supporting mods. The turbo is going to creep terribly, especially if you have a full turbo-back exhaust. You will never be able to put your foot to the floor because it will creep, when I put mine on with the stock injectors, it would jump to 23 psi without even hesitating. If you want to be able to use the turbo without creeping, you need to port the crap out of it and the o2 housing. After I did that to mine, I was able to hold the turbo at 9 psi all the way to redline.

 

[blackrosenova40]

Well the shit storm that has erupted due to my post is pretty much what im talking about. theres two sides to this forum, those that are comfortable with minimal, and those that want to go big.

This is where your wrong, The truth is theres a half assed way of doing things and there is the correct way of doing things. If people were to be applauded for offering half assed solutions, this site would suck. If you want to do things half assed, figure it out for youself, your car is nobody's responsibily but yours, so if you dont like people suggesting the correct way of doing things, tough luck.

 

[Jarnutt]

So what you're saying is that they matched everything with no room to budge outside the selected paramaters of 270hp. That makes sense, understandable that no one thing would go too far without injectors, turbo, and ecu all updated to match. I was thinking that the injectors would be good for more than the stock turbo could produce, or maybe the stock turbo was just hideously undersized since the 14b is a superior turbo and yet ran on essentially the same engine setup, or similar. But if you say that the injectors peak at 270, and the turbo peaks at 270, that's pretty much a clear cut answer, numbers backing up claims. Next question is, what's the most power people have pulled off stock injectors and turbos without running everything 100% duty cycle into the ground? Most of my cars I've tuned in the past, pump gas without meth or alky is good til about 15psi before you see knock, in about 80 degree weather, how do these blocks and fuel system hold on just 91 and say 14 psi? Not trying to avoid upgrading, just want to know, you hear a lot of "my friends been doing it forever with no problems", but someone out there has to have a DD that they've made quick on factory equipment

As for the "half assed" way of doing things, one might say MBC's, crushed BOV's, blue wire mods, and gutted cats " half assed", seeings how there are plenty of fine products manufactured to do the same damn thing, but better. So you say half assed, I say I'm not rich, so what can I get away with with making my DD a race car, its called grassroots racing, and that and my first RWD GTS Toyota many years ago were the reason a teenage kid with a job bagging groceries was able to have fun on the weekends. But to say if I'm not going to do it "right", then don't do it at all, is like saying if you aren't aiming for 10's, don't even bother puting that fmic on your car cause its a waste and your stupid for having fun with your car and not devoting a wad of cash to it. I understand that a DSM is a different animal than a 20 year old fuel injected toyota, but it takes the fun out of it when you get made out to be an asshole because you don't want your life to revolve around the car that takes you to work. I knew when I bought this car it was easy to mod, but got expensive fast, but just like a person who runs a vafc on a car with no mods, I need to know WHERE to spend money, not just how to spend it. Its hard to learn why you can or can't do something with this car, when you merely suggest doing something differently to what an "experienced" DSM tuner would call "not half assed", and get told to blow your car up somewhere else. Nice attitude. Its my first DSM, number one, maybe not my last, this is a newbie forum, things to consider.

 

[the_mork]

These engines don't need meth/alcohol to run big boost, at some point it becomes nice but right now I'm running 23psi from an evo3 16g on an entirely stock longblock and pumpgas (93). This is with evo8 560cc injectors.