Flywheel not aligned

[BLOHS7844]

My starter grinds and when I look the inside of the teeth (maybe for 2mm or so) on the starter (both the old one and the starter I only used to crank it a couple times) and the teeth on the flywheel are a little rounded on the edges. That tells me that the starter gear only goes so far because its not meshing right and makes it grind. I'm guessing that the flywheel isn't aligned right for whatever reason. Starter used to work just fine. Bolts on the starter are good.

I did just have the car down for a couple weeks for head work but I didn't remove the starter or touch the flywheel.

If the flywheel bolts are loose I'm guessing that could make the flywheel not be centered right. What could cause them to become loose. The noise got progressively worse so they could have loosened more than they were before.

It might be worth noting that the starter shim plate separates from the trans just a little with the starter off because its slightly warped. I don't think this is the issue because the starter would push it tight to the trans.

 

[luv2rallye]

Are you sure you have the correct flywheel and starter plate? Mismatched will grind.

The starter is the same for both cars - AWD and FWD.
The flywheel is different, 106 teeth for AWD (smaller)
and 110 teeth for FWD (larger).

The starter plate that helps line up the starter is different too.

 

[2slow4now]

It sounds like it was starting and working before he had it down for head work but that is really good information there. That's the first thing I thought was oh no another wrong flywheel thread.

I'm betting he means the slight bevel on the side of the bendix gear from the factory. It's approx 2-3mm. I've had cars do this same thing were it doesn't want to engage the flywheel. My current starter on my talon would do the Gzing grind sound before my last build. I took the starter apart and it was just sticking from baked on crap and dirt not allowing it to fully engage the bendix everytime. Cleaned everything, up applied a small amount of grease on the shaft, function checked it before I put it back in, and no problems since. She starts with no grinding or anything.

 

[BLOHS7844]

Same flywheel, starter, starter plate, etc as before.

This happened to the replacement starter after maybe 10 seconds of cranking.(Not 10 seconds all at once, just spread out) so I'm thinking the starter isn't the issue but rather the flywheel.

Its a very loud and horrible grinding noise so its not some minor thing.

I was missing 1 transmission to block bolt and replaced it but it was VERY hard to get it to turn. It took a lot of effort but its in there and it still does it. Is it possible that the trans isn't aligned? I never touched it so I don't know what could have changed. Its been fine for a long time.

 

[2slow4now]

If the bendix doesn't engage fully it will be a horrible sounding event. It will be loud enough that it sounds like it grinds every tooth off the flywheel. Can you post up pics of the bendix gear teeth and flywheel teeth?

If your missing tranny bolt (I'm guessing the rear bolt) was flexing the tranny away from the block it would cause friction disk and/or pressure plate damage. So really think that could be eliminated as the cause.

You may have worn a spot in the flywheel teeth and even with a replacement starter it won't fully engage in that damaged spot. Does it do it intermittent or everytime? If you use a wrench and rotate the engine to a different position does it still do it?

 

[BLOHS7844]

Its really done it in every place on the flywheel that I know of. Its such a horrible sounding thing that I'm afraid to try it again.

The new starter is doing it to so I don't think its the bendix gear at all. I'll post pics tomorrow though of it. I can try to post pics of the flywheel teeth too but realistically, its gonna be tough to get a good pic of it simply because of the angle.

I'm tempted to pull the trans so I can take a good look at the flywheel and make sure it isn't chew up more than what I can see

 

[2slow4now]

Yeah it sounds like the ring gear teeth may be the problem. I could see that happening if it has been grinding for a long time.

Yeah no point in ruining a new starter. HHMM starter got me thinking. Two different part numbers for a manual and auto starter. I don't know the difference because I've only owned manuals but that may be worth looking into.

 

[donniekak]

Which transmission to block bolt did you add?

 

[BLOHS7844]

The bolt I added was the one thats 2 bolts away from the starter bolt, when looking at it from the passenger side.

And it hasn't been doing it for a long time at all. Just recently. I haven't actually gotten to drive the car since its been happening

Also the new starter that I got was slightly smaller than the old one but it bolted up just fine. The only difference is that it was slightly shorter (the starter gear and everything around it was the same) but it had the same part number.

 

[2slow4now]

Well the only thing I can think is the old starter has damaged the flywheel teeth preventing even the new starter to engage fully or what luv2rally said. That doesn't add up very well if it was working fine before. When you said engagement point was 2-3mm did you mean from the side of the flywheel teeth or the top?

If it's side then I would say the bad starter (sticking bendix) damaged the flywheel and/or the bent starter plate has caused some missalignment issue.

If it's the top of the flywheel teeth then I would say what luv2rally said and the bent starter plate just adds to the problem.

 

[TwinTurboDsm]

IM having the same issue but I just did my clutch and I was missing a trans bolt also mine just grinds everytime I try and start it.

 

[BLOHS7844]

Its the side of the starter that is kind of rounded off (When looking at the starter the long way).

Now on the first starter, I noticed that the bolts were a little loose. This could have damaged the flywheel


UPDATE: I just noticed one of another tranny bolt was missing. Its one of the ones that bolt it to the rear motor mount I believe. I see 1 bolt and another bolt hole for the rear motor mount. Does this sound right?

 

[NHerron]

Which mount? There's the trans to centermember brace (closest to radiator), trans to crossmember/subframe (closest to firewall) and the trans to passenger frame rail which has a few nuts.

I can't remember your other threads but did you ever figure out if your alignment dowels are currently in place?

Before pulling anything, you might be able to see something within from pulling the inspection plate (located bottom of bellhousing) or the rubber boot that surrounds the clutch fork (located bottom/radiator side of bellhousing)

But pulling the trans isn't too bad if need be. The thing that's still annoying to me is the trans to subframe mount, and overall time spent (for me Im down to about 3 hours, pulling and remounting)

This guy has a cool channel and a good video on pulling reinstalling the transmission
Trans & Clutch 1 - Remove Transmission - YouTube

 

[BLOHS7844]

It was the motor mount by the firewall.

And I'm assuming (never checked though) that my dowel pins are in place because I've never touch the trans and have had the car for about a year now

I'll definitely use that video for pulling the trans. Thanks man

 

[NHerron]

Does the engine/trans move around while cranking? Maybe it's hitting the subframe or something

There should be (3) heavy gold bolts (17mm head) holding the bracket to the transmission and 1 long through bolt which connects the bracket to subframe mount. If that don't make sense let me know

 

[BLOHS7844]

Now I can guarantee the noise if from the flywheel and starter gears not meshing.

I am having a little trouble following what your saying. I attached a picture I found and I think now I know what you mean.

Is the bracket you are talking about number 21832P? With the bolts being 21807? I'm pretty sure thats the one I was talking about. Its tough to see so I didn't even see that there was another bolt on the other side. The one I'm missing is the bottom left one on the bracket

 

[cjridert1]

Dowel pins came to mind first, I had a similar problem a few years back. You didnt remove the trans - did someone else about the time you bought it? You could maybe loosen all the trans-engine bolts and try to rotate the trans clockwise/counterclockwise -> snug it up -> crank it and assess startup.
If all your flywheel bolts came loose, it may 'flop' axially, but it shouldnt rotate lopsided - there are 6 bolts and a dowel pin to keep it in place. It seems if you had all your bolts loose, you'd be having some serious symptoms besides a noisy startup.

 

[BLOHS7844]

I know it was removed at one point to replace the clutch disc and install an act 2100.

Now before jumping to the tranny bolts or dowel pins, what do you guys think about my theory with the starter bolts? They were loose before and I think this could have rounded the ring gear enough to grind badly. I installed a new starter and it didn't grind intially. But I think with the reduced contact area from on the damaged ring gear, that could cause the 2nd starter to grind on start up after a bit.

 

[luv2rallye]

Some thoughts:

1) Remove the bell housing cover (underneath) and inspect your flywheel teeth for damage - see photo.

2) You said you added the bolt 2 away from starter. But the starter has 2 bolts, so which direction and from which one? See http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=90081&d=1228941528 to identify bolt.

3) Is it possible your extremely tight turning bolt has the wrong pitch? See photo in link above.

4) Look at photo "flywheel FWD 7 bolt installed" below. Notice the water pipe mounting tab near the upper right portion of the flywheel. This very easily can flip down between the bell housing and the block while mounting tranny causing misalignment problems. This happened to me. It is supposed to go under the head of one of the 10x1.25x40 tranny mounting bolts. You might want to check this.

5) Below is photo of the FWD starter plate. Make sure yours is not now bent from all your starter engagement problems.

6) It's hard to believe the tranny has missing dowel pins since you've driven it a year with no problems. It's also extremely difficult to install/align the tranny without them. You do have the 8x1.25x60 bolt going the other direction from block into tranny (goes through a dowel pin) right?

 

[NHerron]

Yes, 21832P is the bracket and 21807 are the 3 bolts I'm speaking of.

Luv2rallye has some good points, I would start with pulling the inspection cover.



Hey Luv2rallye, I can't remember, are our flywheel ring gears beveled, or is it just the starter pinion gear that's beveled?

 

[BLOHS7844]

I removed the plate right away. Its kind of a tough angle but you can see shiny metal on each of the teeth so I know it was getting chewed away.

The bolt I added the bolt thats in 1-2 o'clock position in your picture.

10x1.25x40 was the bolts dimensions.

Yes the other bolt with the dowel pin is in place.

Is it possible that one missing bolt on the rear mount could cause this?

And if it makes a difference, on the front mount, one of the inserts is kind of pulling away from where it should be. Like its not inside the mount completely

 

[DSM Jeff]

If you're missing the engine to trans bolt in the rear (firewall side, the one that goes through the 2nd dowl) it can cause starter issues. I know this because I've seen it. It can do a whole lot more damage over time. I would make sure you have ALL bolts in, and tight. Also I would be sure you got the correct starter as there is a difference between manual and auto starters.

 

[BLOHS7844]

All that was covered in previous posts. Correct starter, not missing any dowel pin bolts, just one of the bolts for the rear motor mount

 

[luv2rallye]

I can't see how any missing engine mounting bolt (especially the anti-roll mounts) or damaged insert would cause starter problems. May let the engine move/roll around more than normal but since the starter is bolted to the engine, it moves with the engine.

The bolt DSM Jeff is referring to is the 8x1.25x60 which goes the other way (engine block into tranny) and I agree it must be there or damage will eventually result.

Is my item #4 look ok?

Is your starter mounted completely flush to the bell housing? It's easy to get it cockeyed while screwing in the 2 bolts since you normally can't hold starter in place while doing so (without a 2nd person). Maybe remount it with someone holding starter in place?

 

[BLOHS7844]

about #4, I looked and I didn't see a tab at all on the water pipe and there weren't any tabs through the tranny bolts.

I've taken the water pipe out multiple times so it couldn't have gotten caught in between the trans.

I could try taking out each transmission bolt one at a time and see if one might have gotten sheared/snapped somehow? I see all the bolt heads from all the bolts and they were secure when I tried moving them. (only tried with my hands, not a wrench or rachet)

One thing, If the engine wasn't supported with the driver side bracket, and there wasn't anything under the oil pan, could that cause something to bend?