FINALLY the machinist speaks!!

[josh1095]

so as some may know, i had an engine built and got rod knock after 330 miles. and whined like hell about it every post on here . so i got off the phone with the machinist who finally took it apart today. he says QUOTE "theres alot of wear on the tops of the rod bearings and the bottoms of the mains, rod #4 was bad enough it started knocking. i cant blame the guy who cut the crank, it looks like you werent pulling timing far enough while boosting"

now theres where i jumped in. ya see, that makes no ###ing sense. theres no signs of detonation... ANYWHERE. even he admitted that. i told him i didnt change anything in the timing tables and ran a MAX of 11psi i.e. stock ###ing boost levels on a fully built engine.

his excuse seems lame and the fact that all the bearings are showing excessive wear seems odd too. i think the guy who cut the crank messed up, or the machinist didnt use the right spec bearings. i asked if he used acl. he said ""no i got clevites, but it looks like im going to get a set of acl race bearings this time""

again, what is going on here? i did the motoman then changed oil about 45 miles, then 100 miles, then again about 150 miles later. thats when i noticed gold in th oil.
long story longer: hes doing all labor free but charging me parts. full set of bearings plus another cometic MLS hg. FML FML FML, over 3100 bucks now just in the goddamn mother ####ing engine. around 10 bucks a mile, not counting all the other little stuff.
sorry to rant

 

[Calan]

short log here.

(when the car goes back together)...

For starters, you need to load up something other than the overly-conservative (i.e. pig rich) DA maps, zero all the sliders, and then work on getting the airflow calibrated. In that log you were adding fuel with the MAFComp sliders, then pulling it right back out with the fuel sliders.

If it was this rich during initial break-in, you most likely were pumping raw fuel past the unseated rings which would have diluted the oil. Could it have caused bearing failure? I dunno.... maybe.

What oil did you use for break-in?

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Poor car... .

Sorry no offense... . I just don't understand what people are thinking sometimes

....Can't wait to hear this. If he said this to me.. I'd be shitting. x.x

 

[josh1095]

....Can't wait to hear this. If he said this to me.. I'd be shitting. x.x

guy comes off as a bit of a prick right? i really liked the "no offense"....
im sure MY1GDSM knows his shit alot better than i but that really isnt helpful to hear. ive had enough grief with this thing.

i used quaker state 10 30 for break in. used 5 30 during first 45 miles then changed it. total of 3 oil changes. oil was never gassy. rings seated perfectly. i realize my airflow really needs work but like i said, i had virtually no time to mess with it. i was busy with work, then the damn thing started knocking. i just wanted to drive it.
everything your seeing is on a stock t25.

so in summary my timing was ok, or atleast not hurting anything?

 

[bryanwheat]

From my understanding you can alter anything you desire as far as timing in Link. If I'm not correct that's fine. But I was sure you could edit the timing for that as you have full access to the primary files of the ECU. Kind of like how you could edit the Bin files via Hex editing in a more primitive format. I understand that it's more of a physical/mechanical timing stance, but I was under the impression that you can alter the signal of the sensor and add/remove timing for all areas of the timing table. Correct me if I'm just way off here. I've had little trouble with this in the past as I don't normally own a 2G with a 7 bolt engine.

You can adjust the timing. But the base timing is not adjustable because the cam and crank sensors are in a fixed position. Base timing is basically the sensor being in correct time with the triggers.

 

[MY1GDSM]

so in summary my timing was ok, or atleast not hurting anything?

Nobody has commented on that so kinda quick to say "it's not on me" your issues are not limited to what your asking as Calan took part of the words out of my mouth... .

you most likely were pumping raw fuel past the unseated rings

I Really don't know all that much in my eyes... . But, I'd say I'm far from a prick... . But let's not get off topic this thread as already went 6 different ways as it is


Bottom line if you have a fresh motor that needs broke in regardless of your point of view on that you need your tune to be spot on so that you can properly do this...

If I had more free time I'd be more then happy to point out what your probably not seeing in the log or your settings.

Sorry, I didn't give you your answer you wanted to hear I was more curious just to see the "tune"

 

[2GJeremy]

One possibility, if you diluted your oil with raw fuel it COULD cause bearing failure. But then again, if you shoot a musket in the air it could come back down and hit you in the face. Same possibilities. No offense to whoever said that.

 

[josh1095]

well, im going to look around and get an idea on where my DA octane tables need to be. do a proper maf comp and all and learn and read alot more. that said, i didnt do a ton of boosting while breaking in. so the theory of gas going past the rings while possible, seems unlikely.
im going to reset it to stock when the engine gets back and post up a log if i cant figure things out. the rings are seated so the machinist told me im essentially broken in. still going to take it easy on it til i get another 500 miles on it. i guess, my main question has been answered, the timing did not cause bearing failure. as such i thought.
and jeremy

 

[Calan]

so the theory of gas going past the rings while possible, seems unlikely.

Raw gas went past the rings for the first 20 miles or so, at least. Probably a lot more than you think, especially with the car running that rich.

On the next startup/break-in, save some of the oil after the first change and have it analyzed, just for fun.

the timing did not cause bearing failure. as such i thought.

Not necessarily, although maybe not for the reasons you think. If the timing was way out in left field (which we have no way of knowing without looking at several WOT and closed loop logs), it could have caused numerous adverse things to happen...not just knock.

My guess is that it was a combination of diluted oil, oil that was too thin to begin with, an overly rich tune, and possibly some tolerancing issues on the machining. That hypothesis is just as good or bad as any though...it's really impossible to say at this point. (BTW - Did you use synthetic Quaker State or dino oil?).

 

[josh1095]

dino juice, calan. i read up on the break in procedure. and i really gotta say, i dont think it was running rich during the first 45 miles. i didnt have link. at all. i didnt have a wb either but there were no CELs coming on from rich conditions/o2 failures etc. everything was completely stock with the exception of a BOV and boost guage. my cruising afrs and idle were always around 14.7. but like you said, this is just hypothesis. the only thing i noticed about first 2 oil changes was a very light silvery sheen but i expected that. thats the rings filing down and a normal thing right? i noticed the gold in the oil on the last change and that was it. 30 miles later i could hear the problem.
ill grab some idle and cruise logs when she gets back up runnin and post them for evaluation. thanks for the help.

oh shit, just thought of something: if he put in higher compression pistons would that effect anything? i mean timing wise it has to right? whats the stock comp ratio on 2gs? i told him to use stock compression when buying the internals, i trust he did but now im thinkin...

 

[Aproductions]

8.5:1 is oem for 2g.

Now if you had the head and block decked it will change things.

 

[josh1095]

not sure if they were decked. will ask.

 

[josh1095]

little update. he says he used stock compression pistons. insists now on using "coated acl bearings" on this build. when i told him my timing he said it was indeed conservative. he says i can switch to synth if i want to now since the rings are seated. i dont know. hes jsut one of those people you cant get a bead on. cost is going to be in the neighborhood of 400. hes installing the crower 272s and springs i got so i guess hes charging a little for that.
he also told me the acls only go to 10 over so my crank is beyond that and he may have to find a core. these are his words. im just thinking of ordering a damn eagle crank but theres no reason. stock cranks can take the power im looking to make(400 to 450). this has turned me into a religious man , im praying to baby jesus every fn day this guy gets it right this time haha.

 

[BogusSVO]

Ask him what oil he wants you to run, what oil filter, and how he wants you to break it in.

 

[MichaelSuch]

I'm running clevite 77's in my build, will probably use them in my next car as well. But if I were you, search for a good core on here. I've always had good luck. And you are close to St. Louis correct? Make an account on gatewaydsm.org. There are local guys there that have parts and will be able to hook you up with a good crank as well.

 

[josh1095]

bogus, he says that the break in is essentially done but i will ask him exactly what oil and filter to use. he said bearings dont really break in. thats what i thought too.
michael, thank you. i completely forgot about that site. yeah im real close to stl. about 25 miles from the arch. im about an hr from you i think, maybe less. you meet up around here w other dsm'ers? pm me if ## up here and i have a running car .

 

[MichaelSuch]

I try to meet up with the locals there but it's hard to with me working 2nd shift and a lot of Saturdays. I work in Nashville but anytime I can I'm always down to hang out, cruise, work on cars, or whatever it is. I've always ran Napa Gold filters with my cars and they seem to work very very well. You can't go wrong with the OEM Denso filters either but I always have to order those online. Any high quality filter should work fine for break-in. I'll PM you my number as well.

 

[bryanwheat]

bogus, he says that the break in is essentially done but i will ask him exactly what oil and filter to use. he said bearings dont really break in. thats what i thought too.
michael, thank you. i completely forgot about that site. yeah im real close to stl. about 25 miles from the arch. im about an hr from you i think, maybe less. you meet up around here w other dsm'ers? pm me if ## up here and i have a running car .

So he isn't pulling the pistons out and cleaning the block and oil passages?

 

[Mr PopUps]

2 things wrong with this thread: Quaker State, and cut crank.

Quaker State out of the bottle is about as good as straight water and ashes.

You cut/turn a Mitsu crank, you ruin the factory hardening of the material and are asking for failure.

As far as breaking in a motor, break it in like youre going to drive it. Last motor i build for a friend, i warmed it up, drove on the city street to the x-way. In 2nd gear i started at about 15mph and ran it up to 35 full throttle, and coasted back down. Repeated this 3 times. Got to the x-way and did 4 pulls from 40-65 with the same coast down. Drove back home. Car with stock rewired 12 year old fuel pump, K&N, MBC@16 and full 2.5" t-back with cat then did 14.009 at around 96 IIRC, would have broke 13's but the clutch slipped on the last run so i called it a night. Thats nearly 250hp at the crank from an a stock motor.

 

[josh1095]

yes, hes cleaning block and head. not sure exactly what that entails.
michael, thanks, ive been hearing alot of good about napa gold. think ill grab one.

 

[ed1380]

Napa gold is a wix filter. It's good. As for oil, run any brand 15-40 except dino. You can get a case of 6 gallons shell rotella for $75 at sams

 

[josh1095]

i think the weight of the oil has been hammered to death in multiple threads. it kind of depends on clearnances in each individual motor correct? i was planning on running 10 40 and see how the oil pressure sits when warmed up to op temp. if its low, then 15 40 or 20 50 is next. it should NOT be low on a brand new motor though.

 

[bryanwheat]

2 things wrong with this thread: Quaker State, and cut crank.

Quaker State out of the bottle is about as good as straight water and ashes.

You cut/turn a Mitsu crank, you ruin the factory hardening of the material and are asking for failure.

As far as breaking in a motor, break it in like youre going to drive it. Last motor i build for a friend, i warmed it up, drove on the city street to the x-way. In 2nd gear i started at about 15mph and ran it up to 35 full throttle, and coasted back down. Repeated this 3 times. Got to the x-way and did 4 pulls from 40-65 with the same coast down. Drove back home. Car with stock rewired 12 year old fuel pump, K&N, MBC@16 and full 2.5" t-back with cat then did 14.009 at around 96 IIRC, would have broke 13's but the clutch slipped on the last run so i called it a night. Thats nearly 250hp at the crank from an a stock motor.

You obviously haven't been doing this long enough to know that it is perfectly fine to cut a hardened crank .010.

 

[daren_p]

You obviously haven't been doing this long enough to know that it is perfectly fine to cut a hardened crank .010.

Exactly, there are numerous guys, making well over 500awhp that would agree that running a cut crank isn't an issue.

 

[josh1095]

Exactly, there are numerous guys, making well over 500awhp that would agree that running a cut crank isn't an issue.

thank you.

and btw to the guy dissing the oil, quaker state is just fine for break in. i ran the shit in all my vehicles for years. i dont buy that its "junk". its just being used for break in. and i thought i posted this already: i DID motoman break in. on stock boost w t25. rings seated bro
tolerances were off/wrong bearings put in. thats my conclusion but im past looking to place blame, i just dont want it to happen again. through my fault or anyone elses. im ready to throw the thousands of $ in parts on this thing and have the reliable power car i was dreaming of since ive been 18. im 31, ive waited long enough , im an old man now haha

 

[white92talontsi]

2 things wrong with this thread: Quaker State, and cut crank.

Quaker State out of the bottle is about as good as straight water and ashes.

You cut/turn a Mitsu crank, you ruin the factory hardening of the material and are asking for failure.

As far as breaking in a motor, break it in like youre going to drive it. Last motor i build for a friend, i warmed it up, drove on the city street to the x-way. In 2nd gear i started at about 15mph and ran it up to 35 full throttle, and coasted back down. Repeated this 3 times. Got to the x-way and did 4 pulls from 40-65 with the same coast down. Drove back home. Car with stock rewired 12 year old fuel pump, K&N, MBC@16 and full 2.5" t-back with cat then did 14.009 at around 96 IIRC, would have broke 13's but the clutch slipped on the last run so i called it a night. Thats nearly 250hp at the crank from an a stock motor.

Fact just in case you did not know.
2g/Evo cranks are not nitride coated(this is the hardening process)

I run a cut crank in my 2g without issues.
The issue arises when you cut the crank, if not done properly you will ruin bearings.

Most issues arrise because the machine shop normally does what you ask them. If you tell them cut 0.010" off the rod journals but you do not ask them to check the final clearance then they won't.