FINALLY the machinist speaks!!

[josh1095]

so as some may know, i had an engine built and got rod knock after 330 miles. and whined like hell about it every post on here . so i got off the phone with the machinist who finally took it apart today. he says QUOTE "theres alot of wear on the tops of the rod bearings and the bottoms of the mains, rod #4 was bad enough it started knocking. i cant blame the guy who cut the crank, it looks like you werent pulling timing far enough while boosting"

now theres where i jumped in. ya see, that makes no ###ing sense. theres no signs of detonation... ANYWHERE. even he admitted that. i told him i didnt change anything in the timing tables and ran a MAX of 11psi i.e. stock ###ing boost levels on a fully built engine.

his excuse seems lame and the fact that all the bearings are showing excessive wear seems odd too. i think the guy who cut the crank messed up, or the machinist didnt use the right spec bearings. i asked if he used acl. he said ""no i got clevites, but it looks like im going to get a set of acl race bearings this time""

again, what is going on here? i did the motoman then changed oil about 45 miles, then 100 miles, then again about 150 miles later. thats when i noticed gold in th oil.
long story longer: hes doing all labor free but charging me parts. full set of bearings plus another cometic MLS hg. FML FML FML, over 3100 bucks now just in the goddamn mother ####ing engine. around 10 bucks a mile, not counting all the other little stuff.
sorry to rant

 

[ed1380]

Did you run an oil pressure gauge? It really looks like loose main bearing clearance which means low oil pressure. Or bad oil pump. As a machinist he should have plastigauged it.

If it didn't spin then there's a good chance that the rods are fine. A new crank, some king aluminum bearings, and a good washing and it'll be good. For under 500 I would run aluminum bearings. 500-600 it depends on how its gonna run. And 600+ trimetal or coated aluminum.

 

[fonzi90Tsi]

Hmm I had been waiting to see what came of this.

Hope it doesnt happen again!

 

[josh1095]

ed, he said acl ceramics. that ring a bell? im shooting for 400whp but i want room to grow. thats why i had forged internals and arp's and everything done. its more $$ and headaches. ive dealt with 2 pros with this car and both have screwed me. the only guy i can trust is me!! . well, and this forum. there are so many bright and helpful people on here.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Sounds like he's taking care of it, no? I mean sure, he doesn't sound like a very cool guy but at least he's covering you.

 

[FLASH1970]

Well, at least it's being taken care of. It sucks you have to buy parts again.

And a machinist shouldn't plastigauge. Plastigauging is for us poor people who can't afford the precision measuring tools any good machinist would have.

 

[josh1095]

hes KIND of covering me. i still have to pay parts. it was a tough call. either take the free labor from him or just take the engine elsewhere and pay labor and parts. i decided to give him another shot. when he told me all bearings had excessive wear thats when i freaked a little. i was giving him the benefit of the doubt before thinking that possibly one bearing was bad from the factory. not the case.
ahh well, im calmer today. what else can i do right? grin and bear it.

 

[daren_p]

What did you do to prime the engine before initial start up?

 

[BogusSVO]

I can see where the machinist is going with the tops of the rod bearing and bottom of the mains, and not pulling enough time under boost.

What was your base timing set at? Should be 4* BTDC
Now if the cas was screwed, and firing the plugs at 20* BTDC, if this was the case, then the piston is trying to compress the A/F mix as it was ignited too early, and that would shove the whole rotating assembly down, when it should be going up.

IF this was the case, then you would not have pre det on the pistons.

Do you have logs you can review from when the engine was running to make sure timing was being pulled as it should have been?

With my ford, the general rule of thumb is 2* pulled for every 1lb of boost to a total of 20* pulled.

 

[kchaazz]

Dont use race bearings in a motor for a street car; the race bearings do not allow the enevitable tiny debris in the oil to embed into the bearing surface the way "normal" bearings do.

 

[josh1095]

no, pump was not primed with a drill. i unplugged the crank pos sensor(disabling spark and fuel) and cranked it over a good amount. when i fired it it had lifter tick for a few minutes then went away and never returned. guess it wasnt fully primed. used 5 30 oil for the first 45 miles.
yes i do have logs. checked them. at full boost of 11psi timing was around 3 degrees. cruising at 2400 rpm with low load, timing was about 25 degrees or so. but it ran great, i mean really good and pulled very hard for a stock engine. compression at 300 miles was exactly 180 across all four.
im not to knowledgeable on spark timing yet, but if my timing was that far off wouldnt it show in link and possibly run alot worse?

i will pass on info about race bearings. should i just tell him to get acl's? im so worried this will happen again guys. its getting crazy with this car.

i have a 97 with, according to the crank sensor style, a 95 or 96 engine in it. how can i tell if my timing is that far off. now im worried. i just could swear if it was firing that far btdc it would run bad. i dont know i AM a noob still

bogus: how do i set base timing?

 

[hypergenesis]

no, pump was not primed with a drill. i unplugged the crank pos sensor(disabling spark and fuel) and cranked it over a good amount. when i fired it it had lifter tick for a few minutes then went away and never returned. guess it wasnt fully primed. used 5 30 oil for the first 45 miles.
yes i do have logs. checked them. at full boost of 11psi timing was around 3 degrees. cruising at 2400 rpm with low load, timing was about 25 degrees or so. but it ran great, i mean really good and pulled very hard for a stock engine. compression at 300 miles was exactly 180 across all four.
im not to knowledgeable on spark timing yet, but if my timing was that far off wouldnt it show in link and possibly run alot worse?

i will pass on info about race bearings. should i just tell him to get acl's? im so worried this will happen again guys. its getting crazy with this car.

i have a 97 with, according to the crank sensor style, a 95 or 96 engine in it. how can i tell if my timing is that far off. now im worried. i just could swear if it was firing that far btdc it would run bad. i dont know i AM a noob still

bogus: how do i set base timing?

Did you say you used 5w-30 oil for your first start up? Idk I thought you were suppose to use another type of oil for the first break in for an engine than the normal kind?

Anyone else care to chime in on this?^^

 

[josh1095]

yes, idea was thinner oil to start with. then i switched to 10 30. machinist recommends 10 40 all the time. id really like to hear about this possible timing issue.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Can you post a log? I'd like to see your settings.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

About priming - just going to quote an old post of mine.

Before you do the timing belt, you need to either use a drill and spin the oil pump at a high RPM to move oil through the system, or - if you have already done the timing you perform this trick -

1: Remove the nipple on the back of the intake manifold that the Brake Booster connects to
2: Remove the Oil Pressure sending unit (Bell)
3: Screw the Nipple from the intake manifold into the threads where the Oil Pressure Sending unit was
4: Using a hand pump (Purchased from any parts store), pump about 2 quarts into this nipple with the aid of a rubber hose
5: This will move oil through the system safely. When you see oil come up to the head, stop.
6: Replace the Nipple on the back of the intake manifold (Clean of course) as well as the sending unit
7: Your engine is now primed.

This allows you to prime the engine without turning any parts. I'd suggest rotating the engine a few times to get things coated after you prime it, but that's just me. I personally am against cranking an engine to prime it.

 

[kchaazz]

2G cars do not have adjustable base timing.

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

2G cars do not have adjustable base timing.

With a tuning solution they do. One can only logically assume that if someone has a vehicle with a built engine for high horsepower, they have a way to tune and accommodate changed to generate the power levels they are striving to achieve.

 

[kchaazz]

I am aware that he could change his base timing with Link, I was merely pointing out that unlike 1G cars, the 2G motors dont have adjustable base timing. I should have been more specific

 

[josh1095]

short log here. it should show u what i was working with.

this is after(i believe) i adjusted fuel sliders to get better afrs under boost. before they were going to like 9:1. waaaaay rich. i still went cautiously with it.
and another note: the boost est is off. i didnt find a way to make my guage match that. was going to but the knock started shortly afte

basically let me understand this. when lets say in link, it says 8.9 degrees timing.
does that mean that the spark is firing 8.9 degrees before top dead center?
i hear of peple running 18 degrees under boost, im either way safe or just the opposite and i caused this. either way, my fault or not, i want to know so it doesnt happen again.
i never adjusted timing tables either. they should be bone stock

 

[1fastlaser]

Dont use race bearings in a motor for a street car; the race bearings do not allow the enevitable tiny debris in the oil to embed into the bearing surface the way "normal" bearings do.

This is half true, you can use them in a street car just fine. I ran acl race bearings for 8 years in a built 2.4 street car that its last two years was on a gt4294 and a 50 shot. when I took the motor apart the bearings looked brand new.

 

[Calan]

With a tuning solution they do.

Which software allows you to change the base timing...and how?

 

[ed1380]

2G cars do not have adjustable base timing.

If you wire in a 1g cas they do

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Which software allows you to change the base timing...and how?

From my understanding you can alter anything you desire as far as timing in Link. If I'm not correct that's fine. But I was sure you could edit the timing for that as you have full access to the primary files of the ECU. Kind of like how you could edit the Bin files via Hex editing in a more primitive format. I understand that it's more of a physical/mechanical timing stance, but I was under the impression that you can alter the signal of the sensor and add/remove timing for all areas of the timing table. Correct me if I'm just way off here. I've had little trouble with this in the past as I don't normally own a 2G with a 7 bolt engine.

 

[MY1GDSM]

short log here. it should show u what i was working with.

Poor car... .

Sorry no offense... . I just don't understand what people are thinking sometimes

 

[josh1095]

damn dude, elaborate!
well, i hadnt had much time to mess with it. i see you are a pro tuner. can u tell me if something in there is causing every bearing to fail in my car or not? thank you.
weve all established im an idiot that cant tune ,MY1G. now did or didnt my actions cause failure of bearings in 300 miles? keep in mind i wasnt running link for those 300 miles. maybe, maybe 100 miles.