1G Fidanza flywheel act clutch issues

[AlexGsxCummins]

Hey guys never had this issue and I have replaced clutches on these cars before without issues. I bought this car and the guy before tore it apart about 15 years ago and never put it back together. He said the tranmsission was rebuild and it appears so, he also have me a act 2600 clutch and pp that was brand new in the package. There was no flywheel so I grabbed a fidanza I had sitting around and like an idiot I forgot to have the step height checked but also its in new condition, its been installed but never ran. I started the car once all installed and couldn't shift any gears and the clutch would not disengage. I looked at the fork position and it is just a hair to the driver side in the window. I found out the pedal needed welded, so I took that out and fixed it with no change. So I ordered a new slave and that didn't work either, ordered a new master and still no change so I ran the master out as far as I could and finally the clutch disengaged. Less then 1 inch off the floor it engages again and the master is holding on by 1 thread. Is there issues with this clutch combo playing together at this point I was going to order a forged clutch fork, possibly say screw it and get a south bend clutch and act flywheel as that is the setup im use too. Any ideas? TOB is oem aswell.

 

[95FullSend99]

Well you already know but I would have checked step height. How used was the flywheel? I do hear of the aluminum plates warping every once in a while.

 

[AlexGsxCummins]

Well you already know but I would have checked step height. How used was the flywheel? I do hear of the aluminum plates warping every once in a while.

Yeah not my proudest moment, the whole time I was putting it together I was thinking I should have checked it. But to answer your question, the flywheel was/is new.

 

[pauleyman]

Hey guys never had this issue and I have replaced clutches on these cars before without issues. I bought this car and the guy before tore it apart about 15 years ago and never put it back together. He said the tranmsission was rebuild and it appears so, he also have me a act 2600 clutch and pp that was brand new in the package. There was no flywheel so I grabbed a fidanza I had sitting around and like an idiot I forgot to have the step height checked but also its in new condition, its been installed but never ran. I started the car once all installed and couldn't shift any gears and the clutch would not disengage. I looked at the fork position and it is just a hair to the driver side in the window. I found out the pedal needed welded, so I took that out and fixed it with no change. So I ordered a new slave and that didn't work either, ordered a new master and still no change so I ran the master out as far as I could and finally the clutch disengaged. Less then 1 inch off the floor it engages again and the master is holding on by 1 thread. Is there issues with this clutch combo playing together at this point I was going to order a forged clutch fork, possibly say screw it and get a south bend clutch and act flywheel as that is the setup im use too. Any ideas? TOB is oem aswell.

You already answered your own question

 

[AlexGsxCummins]

You already answered your own question

What part? I thought step height would cause slipping issues? Or am I wrong? There was like 3 things i said I could try differently.

 

[95FullSend99]

What part? I thought step height would cause slipping issues? Or am I wrong? There was like 3 things i said I could try differently.

Step height. Pull it out and check step height.

 

[pauleyman]

What part? I thought step height would cause slipping issues? Or am I wrong? There was like 3 things i said I could try differently.

Could cause either. Depends on if it's too deep or too shallow. I've never been a fan of ACT for this very reason. I could never get mine to disengage well. Just for grins make sure the firewall isn't flexing, get the max adjustment you can get and double check you have the right slave.
https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/clutch-basic-101-a-clutch-basics-thread-for-everybody.459908/

 

[XC92]

From the relatively little I know about such things it sounds like the step height since it looks like you've tried everything else. You'll need to drop the trans and take out the flywheel to find out and fix it if so. But don't Fidanzas just get a new friction surface instead of being machines?

 

[AlexGsxCummins]

could c

Could cause either. Depends on if it's too deep or too shallow. I've never been a fan of ACT for this very reason. I could never get mine to disengage well. Just for grins make sure the firewall isn't flexing, get the max adjustment you can get and double check you have the right slave.
https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/clutch-basic-101-a-clutch-basics-thread-for-everybody.459908/

I'll have to double check the bore size to make sure its correct. I think I may just order up the combo I normally have luck with, the southbend / act flywheel combo.. I just had all these sitting here new so I figured I would give it a shot.

 

[95FullSend99]

I didnt think about it but ACT. Maybe the @pauleyman can clarify as I have only been around 5 years. Idk what the "wiseman" emblem is caused by but probably more than 5 years. Anywho, I have heard the clutch disks by ACT can be weirdly thick. I have seen complaints come accross facebook groups a few times. Something to check as well.

But don't Fidanzas just get a new friction surface instead of being machines?

Yes. The friction surface tends to warp easily due to it being aluminum. This is why I had asked how used the flywheel was. But he clarified as new.

 

[AWD-Tony]

You definitely want to check the step height and if the fork is centered, you’ll want to shim the pivot ball.
You can shim the pivot ball without pulling the transmission

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[XC92]

You definitely want to check the step height and if the fork is centered, you’ll want to shim the pivot ball.
You can shim the pivot ball without pulling the transmission

You mean if the part of the fork that the slave pushrod connects to is centered R-L on the boot? Isn't it supposed to be slightly more to the driver's side, and certainly not to the passenger's side, which a fulcrum shim would fix? Doesn't adjusting the clutch pedal assembly and master rod bolt under the dash do the same thing and is the FSM-recommended way to fix this?

Btw, isn't the boot upside-down? Every image I've seen has the part # on top, upside-down. I doubt that it matters much but the boot opening has this little projection that I thought had to go inside the fork recess to make a proper seal.

Also, nice paint job on the trans! I might do that myself when I pull it. Does the trans get hot enough in use to need high heat primer and paint, or is the regular stuff ok?

 

[AWD-Tony]

The fork should sit more towards the drivers side. Adjusting the master rod does not change the rod position in the slave. It only adjusts how much fluid is pushed through the system.

Think I used engine enamel. It doesn’t get too hot.

@AlexGsxCummins make sure you can push the slave in by hand after adjusting the master rod. This makes sure you don’t block the relief port in the master for self adjusting.

@XC92 the boot is on correctly. The indent on the right side is for the slave

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[XC92]

Ah, I see. Most images I've seen of it had it upside-down, which I thought odd.

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But that's a different boot model, for a different car, I think the EVO. My mistake. Probably doesn't matter that much either way.

As for the MC/SC, if you adjust the MC rod further into the MC, doesn't that push the SC rod further into the fork? I'm not saying that you should do it enough to preload the fork, just so there's positive contact and the tip of the SC rod isn't loose or dangling. If you do this, doesn't that mean that your MC rod and thus pedal are properly adjusted?

Also, I understand that a good time to push the slave rod in is when bleeding, to bleed the slave itself, after bleeding using the pedal. Much easier with a speed bleeder. This is how I determined that my slave was bad. Bleeding with the pedal got rid of air, but pushing the rod in introduced new air into the system. Ordered a new OEM slave, no more air.

(Still not sure what was wrong with the old slave because when I took it apart and cleaned everything the piston seal appeared to be fine--but near the end of the bore, just before the opening, there was a bit of roughness, so maybe that was it.)

 

[AWD-Tony]

Ah, I see. Most images I've seen of it had it upside-down, which I thought odd.

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But that's a different boot model, for a different car, I think the EVO. My mistake. Probably doesn't matter that much either way.

As for the MC/SC, if you adjust the MC rod further into the MC, doesn't that push the SC rod further into the fork? I'm not saying that you should do it enough to preload the fork, just so there's positive contact and the tip of the SC rod isn't loose or dangling. If you do this, doesn't that mean that your MC rod and thus pedal are properly adjusted?

Also, I understand that a good time to push the slave rod in is when bleeding, to bleed the slave itself, after bleeding using the pedal. Much easier with a speed bleeder. This is how I determined that my slave was bad. Bleeding with the pedal got rid of air, but pushing the rod in introduced new air into the system. Ordered a new OEM slave, no more air.

(Still not sure what was wrong with the old slave because when I took it apart and cleaned everything the piston seal appeared to be fine--but near the end of the bore, just before the opening, there was a bit of roughness, so maybe that was it.)

When you’re adjusting the master rod, the slave rod does not move in and out. All you’re doing is moving the piston in the master.

 

[XC92]

But if you adjust it to push the rod in, that pushes fluid down the line, which pushes the slave piston, which pushes the rod. So how could it not do this? Where would that fluid go?

 

[AWD-Tony]

Back through the relief port. The slave rod will always rest stationary relative to the fork position.

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[XC92]

But isn't adjusting the rod in the same as pressing the clutch pedal, in terms of its effect on the downstream hydraulics and mechanics? They don't know what caused the rod to go in.

I thought the relief valve was to handle situations where the slave rod wasn't able to move out any further because the pressure plate springs were maxed out, and the fluid pressure had to go somewhere so it didn't blow a line or hose or break something.

 

[95FullSend99]

You definitely want to check the step height and if the fork is centered, you’ll want to shim the pivot ball.
You can shim the pivot ball without pulling the transmission

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How?

 

[AWD-Tony]

But isn't adjusting the rod in the same as pressing the clutch pedal, in terms of its effect on the downstream hydraulics and mechanics? They don't know what caused the rod to go in.

I thought the relief valve was to handle situations where the slave rod wasn't able to move out any further because the pressure plate springs were maxed out, and the fluid pressure had to go somewhere so it didn't blow a line or hose or break something.

Have someone move the clutch pedal up and down about 1/2”. The slave doesn’t move. Might be from not building enough pressure.

How?

Remove the slave and boot. Use a slim 14mm open wrench. Cut a washer so you can sneak it around the threads of the pivot ball using a magnet and a screwdriver to guide it in. It takes some time but doable. You can drop the washer too so you have to be careful

 

[XC92]

An endoscope would help, I suppose. But isn't shimming the fulcrum a shortcut to fix a problem that's more properly dealt with by adjusting the master rod under the dash?

 

[pauleyman]

But isn't adjusting the rod in the same as pressing the clutch pedal, in terms of its effect on the downstream hydraulics and mechanics? They don't know what caused the rod to go in.

I thought the relief valve was to handle situations where the slave rod wasn't able to move out any further because the pressure plate springs were maxed out, and the fluid pressure had to go somewhere so it didn't blow a line or hose or break something.

Incorrect. When the master rod first moves you are not moving fluid. The adjustment removes free play and lessens how far the rod has to move Before the relief valve closes and you have motion. The purpose of the relief valve is to allow for clutch wear and adjustment as it wears. If the valve didn't exist the fluid level would never change either.

 

[XC92]

Thanks, good to know.

 

[We're on Boost]

The master rod has to move about .080" to close off the port to the reservoir. So during that first .080" of movement the master piston is just pushing fluid back up into the reservoir - is not moving the slave at all. As soon as that port is closed, you get fluid moving to the slave.
On top of that, you are supposed to have a small amount of "pedal free play". Quarter inch or so.
In the "free play" range, the master rod is not moving at all. You are just taking up slop in the clutch pedal assembly parts.
It takes about 5 pounds of force on the master rod to make it start moving. This is because of the spring inside of the master cylinder - not from hydraulic pressure.
If you have some free play, any free play at all, you can be sure that the master piston is not in too far. It will be all the way rearward like it is supposed to be, hard up against the rear end of the master cylinder.
When adjusting the master rod for free play, it's nice if you can see the master rod at the same time that you are operating the pedal by hand, watching the pedal and the master rod both. The amount you have to move the pedal before the master rod starts to move is the "pedal free play".
So here's a pic of how I do it, using a mirror to watch the master rod, and throwing lots of light up there with a work light:

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[XC92]

Thanks for the additional info. For some reason this relatively simple subsystem confuses me. This week I intend to remove the steering column, for unrelated reasons, which will give me better visual and physical access to all this and make it easier for me to adjust whatever needs adjusting.

As it is with the new clutch and slave cylinder and having replaced and bled the fluid, the clutch engages and disengages properly with no slipping, shudder or other issues. But fine tuning the pedal and rod are steps I definitely intend to get to, hopefully this week.

Other than a short drive to test things out and fill the tank, the car hasn't been and won't be driven until I replace the dry rotted tires and get the car inspected in a week or two, so I have some time to adjust all this. I've waited this long so it's no big deal.