2G Evo 8 maf +evo 560+ no safc?

[PlanZero]

I know this has been discussed numerous times but there are several discrepancies in old threads and the few people who actually tried this haven't responded to my PMs.
I have a s16g I'm looking to up the boost a little. I have read that even without a safc it is possible to use the evo 8/3g MAF/MAS with evo 560cc injectors on a 2g and still run well. Has anyone tried this with success? Or will I need a safc? Of course I would be monitoring the a/f ratio on wideband.

 

[Sjd6795]

Unsure on the evo and 3g Maf/mas, but on my 1g I had using a 3" gm maf and translator alone with the stock turbo and injectors it seemed to be alright for getting around but not something you would want to run permanently. If you got hard into the throttle it had issues keeping the afr in a safe place and it seemed to stumble at times. You can pick up a safc 2 for pretty cheap around $150 now days and you can have some type of control over your afr.

 

[OGDSM1989]

I would never ever try to run any larger injectors / turbo's with out a S-AFC .... just because your using the Evo 8 Maf/Mas that still not adjust for the fact that you have larger injectors. Maybe since they are all from the Evo 8, but the turbo is different so ( maybe close to size ) the computer maybe able to to compensate , I would just hate to a lean condition ruin another car.

 

[lasershark]

It is similar to the 1g's running the 2g maf, there are people that have done it and say it's safe but the real question is why?
Why take the risk when their is proper ways of doing things now...
Short answer the evo 8 maf will do the same thing for the 2g that people sometimes do with the 1g running a 2g maf...
Is it worth it? That's your call...

 

[PlanZero]

I can't find the links right now, but it was basically inferred that this combo was possible on a 2g ecu. However, most threads are referring to either a big or e3 16g. I planned on getting a safc at some point but I stumbled upon this option as well. Just not trying to hit fuel cut at 16 psi on my DD.

 

[lasershark]

If it's something you really want to do, just make sure you really monitor your afr's.

 

[brane_97talon]

It will run. How it will run, however remains untested...
In a 1g, people add a 2g maf for better flow and resolution, and 550's (100cc over stock) to go with that additional air. Evo maf and Injectors on a 2g makes sense to me.
*EDITED* Idle and cruise will be cool At stockish boost levels (10-12psi), youll be fine. Up the boost too much and you will run lean damage something because you wont overrun the Evo maf...get a 99 Blackbox ecu and you will be good to go.

 

[PlanZero]

Just one example:

Running 560 cc/min injectors on gas with a stock 2G ECU and an EVO8/3G MAF would be a nearly perfect match. Based on ECU data from both the EVO8 and 2G, I'd guess you'll run about 5% lean at idle (which will be easily compensated for with fuel trims) and about 4% rich at WOT. Cruise should be nearly dead on.

To run pure E85, which has a stoichiometric ratio of 9.8526:1, and still maintain stock ratios, you would need closer to 835 cc/min injectors:

560 / 0.670 = 835.8

A little more E85 data can be found on the following page.

e85fuel [ECMTuning - wiki]

You can run smaller injectors on E85 to get a leaner ratio at WOT, but you'll be pushing the trims pretty far out during idle and cruise. 750s are about 10% leaner than the theoretically "perfect" 835s. Combine that with the 5% lean you'll be running at idle just from the MAF swap and you're definitely pushing the limits.

Thomas Dorris
ECMTuning, Inc.

However, I can't find specific info with this setup on a small 16g.

Seeing that I can find a used safc for $100-150 I'm seriously undecided. I was going to the junkyard in the next couple days and I thought I'd hunt for the proper 3g maf. Obviously this is a cheaper option but it's pointless if I still have to use a safc anyway.

 

[lasershark]

The particular turbo isn't really the concern, it is the way the evo maf compensates for the larger injectors. Just like the 2g maf in a 1g, it meters air differently and makes the evo injectors "a match". I personally wouldn't go trying to max out the s16g without a proper way to tune or monitor knock.
My old eclipse (rip) I ran at 18-20psi on a s16g with 560s and a safc monitored 0 knock with palm logger, if I had to choose between your two options listed, I would go with the safc for adjustability purposes.
I kept an eye on craigslist and scored a safc for cheap.
Good luck to ya!

 

[EvilGST]

In my opinion people should stop looking for shortcuts and get some kind of engine management so they can make the car run properly and get the most from the parts they are adding. don't get mad, just my opinion. If I could do it all over ECMlink would have been the first thing I installed on my car.

 

[OGDSM1989]

+1 EvilGST
I would never buy a DSM "any year" w/mods and w/out some sort of tuning option, but that is just my opinion. In my case with current car a S-AFC has been a tried and tested way to utilize the current list of modifications ..... ( ECM link or v1 AEM is my next bigger purchase) and if you can grab one for a measly 100-150 dolllars plus have your Evo 8 upgrades that would be a no brainer in my book ......

 

[talon20g]

Anyone have any experience instead of an opinion? I've been curious about this as well. I'm not going to back track to see how it works. Currently I've bypassed this stage of performance by a log shot and have dsmlink.

 

[PlanZero]

Ironically my fwd Tsi has become my DD "build" because of a spun rod bearing and the decision to drop a built motor in her. My awd was intended to be my project, now my gf DDs her instead. The evo maf and injectors were intended to work together. I was only planning on putting 560s in this car, and I'm trying to find the most practical option. I'm still on the fence right now about getting link if for no other reason than I don't really need it at this time. After injectors on this car, I'm moving on to my awd which needs some serious maintenance attention and will be stealing all of my disposable income.

 

[laster969]

I know this has been discussed numerous times but there are several discrepancies in old threads and the few people who actually tried this haven't responded to my PMs.
I have a s16g I'm looking to up the boost a little. I have read that even without a safc it is possible to use the evo 8/3g MAF/MAS with evo 560cc injectors on a 2g and still run well. Has anyone tried this with success? Or will I need a safc? Of course I would be monitoring the a/f ratio on wideband.

My eclipse now does not a maf at all runs like a champ. 500 horsepower strong going for 600 next two weeks

 

[steve]

The evo maf and injectors were intended to work together.

They were designed to work together along with the factory tuning of the EVO ECU.

On a stock 2G ECU they don't work together, at best they're a poorly matched set.

 

[zedicus]

iv'e got the injectors and maf and everything all ready to go. soon as i get some time i have been planning on doing this exact mod to my 2g. there is no reason why it should cause any problems and provided you have a solid fuel pump it should not be an issue.

there is a concern that i have. this mod will slightly alter fueling and might actually cause the timing to go more advanced. running GOOD fuel and NO E85 or anything is going to be required. AND i am wanting to get a front mount before doing this mod. ANYTHING that can be done to help avoid knock would be good. helping control the intake temp with a front mount would help fend off knock compared to a heat soaked side mount during hard pulls.

again the mod itself should not cause any issues, but the new fueling pattern is going to mean you NEED to correct the other deficiencies. the fuel pump and intake temps being my next concern.

They were designed to work together along with the factory tuning of the EVO ECU.

On a stock 2G ECU they don't work together, at best they're a poorly matched set.

i wouldnt go so far as to say 'poorly matched' in time we shall see.

OF NOTE: i actually picked up a 482 maf, its not truly an evo maf and for some reason i remember thinking it would work with the evo 560 injectors better. i did a bunch of math on it at one point but i do not remember what i was calculating off hand.

 

[steve]

i wouldnt go so far as to say 'poorly matched' in time we shall see.

Try it, log all the actual AFR vs the target AFR and post the results.

I've run both the real 399 EVO MAF and the 669 2G MAF with the EVO VIII 560cc injectors in my 1G and know what I had to do to the stock code.

 

[zedicus]

Try it, log all the actual AFR vs the target AFR and post the results.

I've run both the real 399 EVO MAF and the 669 2G MAF with the EVO VIII 560cc injectors in my 1G and know what I had to do to the stock code.

well how far off was it?

my backup plan is to just swap to a black box ecu. should i just go ahead and do that first?

 

[m_0ney_pit]

Definitly let us know what it runs like.

In the code the Evo 8 maf has a higher maf scaling and maf size then the 2g. When you use the Evo 8 maf with the 2g scaling on a 2g ecu it should be leaner because the ecu thinks there's less air.

Now the Evo injectors also have a lower latency than the DSM injectors so this will lean out idle and cruise as well. Where you'd expect it to break even or go richer than the 2g afr map is at part throttle and cruise as injector size becomes more important.

So theoretically it should be leaner than stock at idle and cruise and closer to correct at part throttle and wot.

You'll probably have decel fuel cut issues with stalling and lean fuel trims but may run a decent afr at wot.

 

[91stocker]

Im not familiar with the evo maf, but just run the numbers and see how close they "match". Remembering things lke base fuel pressure and what pressure the injectors are actually rated at. I know evo injectors flow more like 580's at 43psi, which is why people have problems running evo injectors with a 2g maf in 1g's.

I ran a 2g maf/rc550 combo last year with success. The rc550's at that fuel pressure was a nearly perfect match.

If you have a wideband i say go for it. But do you math on which injectors match the cloest percentage wise to the maf change.

 

[m_0ney_pit]

Ah crap brain fart the lower latency of the Evo 8 injectors should richen up idle and cruise so what we are really talking about here is if latency difference between dsm injectors and Evo richening offsets the 2g maf scaling leaning for low maf hz. I think someone compared 1g to 2g to Evo maf scaling at some point so you could tell right away which way it's going to go compared to a 1g with the Evo 8 injectors and maf.

 

[RamenPride]

The theory behind using an Evo MAF and 560's in a 2G is that the injectors are roughly 20% larger than stock, and the Evo MAF reads roughly 20% more airflow than the stock 2g MAF. In a sense, they basically cancel each other out (kind of like running a 2g MAF and 550 injectors in a 1G).

While I do run this setup with an SAFC-II, unfortunately I can't answer too many questions about it because I rarely drive the car and I haven't done any WOT tuning. I can say that it runs much, much better with the addition of the Evo MAF (vs just the SAFC and 560's). I have the SAFC adjusted to compensate for the leanness at idle as noted above, and basically zero'ed out everywhere else.

 

[brane_97talon]

I picked up an Evo 8 Ecu to go with my Evo injectors, maf and turbo. They were kinda designed to run together..

Sounds like you should listen to Steve on this one.

 

[zedicus]

I picked up an Evo 8 Ecu to go with my Evo injectors, maf and turbo. They were kinda designed to run together..

Sounds like you should listen to Steve on this one.

actually the more i see the more i think it should work fine with out any change to the ecu. not to argue against steve, he knows a thing or 12,000. but even up to a 4% variance the ECU should be able to learn out over time and deal with it fine. WOT would be worth checking with a wideband. Still fuel pump upgrades and other supporting mods are going to be a requirement.

and it's not that i am trying to be overly cheap. The black box ECU is on my todo list. but really this car is in no way a race car. my 14b, an evo maf, and evo injectors would basically put me perfectly where i want the car to be performance wise for the rest of it's (my) life. if it was do-able with out any other alterations that would be gravy.

 

[brane_97talon]

I completely understand, the 2g ECU should be more than capable of adapting to that 4% learning curve...however....

It may not give you the performance you desire, unless you want a stockish car with 40-50 more horsepower due to turbo upgrade (t25-16g)...Stock AFR trims are rich and timing conservative to keep your motor from exploding. I saw a huge difference in the way my car ran going switching between stock 1g, 2g and Evo maps btw...

I wasnt saying that you HAD to buy the Evo ecu...just that the learning curve would be easier on the ecu and the user, so I decided to match up the hardware in the end.