Evo 1 Gsr Awd Lsd Transmission In 2g

[ceedawg]

I have always shared my good and bad experiences on these boards, fortunate to say I have had more good than bad . Yeah I agree with you I am not new to the awd plateform it was my first dsm

Gotcha!! You know how these projects are sometimes . Got the gears back yesterday, I haven't time to do anything trying to punch out a big project before the year end. We are under the gun, but when its over I will definitely get back to it for sure. I want to see how they hold up just like everyone else, wpc fwd made me a believer! Oh by the way I am no stranger to the awd dsm plateform
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/hey-look-what-happened-to-my-car.212148/#post-1767148

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Smh jeezus!! Mannnnnnn Wow!!!!!! Dude!! Yeah bro you are fortunate.God's hands bro!!

 

[CrackedDSM]

Holy hell, man. How fast was that dude speeding up to slam into you that hard. It looks like someone hit you at 60mph while you were sitting stock still.

 

[91 GSX]

Can an awd Dsm 2nd gear be used on the Evo 1 input shaft gear set? Press the Evo 1 2nd gear off and press on the Dsm 2nd gear.

The evo 1 uses the weaker large hub/sliders on 3rd 4th gears. Evo II III uses stronger small hub sliders on 3rd 4th gears. Are the 1st and 2nd gear hub/sliders all the same between Evo I, II, III's and Dsm's? Any known to be weak like the evo 1 and 93-99 dsm 3/4 hub sliders?

 

[Canadian_CD9A]

Just a quick note, I'm not certain that the Evo 1's 3/4 hub and slider is the "weak" one. There were 4 different hub/slider assemblies, and two of those were for the larger synchro gear. I've seen the Evo 1's hub & slider referred to as HD, so it might not be the weakest. Carry on though!

 

[Sp1kE]

I've heard similar.
My local trans builder actually told me he has opened an evo 1 trans before and it was running a 90's style center diff and shaft.

 

[TSi-Rocket]

I thought the evo 1 had the HD hub also but I guess maybe it depends on which evo 1 trans. Between the jdm gallant and the evo 1 variants there are 4 different transmissions I think. Some of the evo 1 transmission have pads on the shift forks, I'm thinking they were plastic?

The 90-early 91, and the late 91-92 have the better hub/sliders. There are differences between the 90, early 91, late 91-92, and 93-94. The late 91-92 are the better ones to have, but the 90 and early 91 have the better gears but have an obsolete center diff gear profile. The early 91 is an odd ball but I have 3 of them and they were a nightmare until I did some comparing, they have the aluminum 5th/rev. Jack's had a little info on the differences between the early 91 and late 91. I think a good setup will be to take the gears from the 90 or early 91 and install them on the shafts of a late 91-92 which is my end goal with the transmissions I have right now. The 90 has the "HD" gears and I believe the early 91 does also.

I hope to get some video explaining the differences between the 90, early 91, and late 91-92. I am suppose to have a 2g input and intermediate cluster but upon a quick inspection it appears to be from a 92. I tore 4 transmissions apart while on layoff(paid vacation ) but found a job I wanted pretty quick which derailed my video making. Routine maintenance on vehicles has taken up all my free time lately. I will try to get some video of the differences when I get the time.

Sp1ke my evo 1 had a newer style center diff internally but the outside gear profile was the same as a 90/early 91 but was 23 spline(maybe someone had changed the output shaft before I purchased the car?).

 

[Sp1kE]

Humm, whats the internal differences between the newer style center diff and the 90's?
I bought a quaife center diff, and my builder got concerned that I may have had the 90's style intermediate shaft (different gear angles)
But my evo 1 came with the newer style gears, 91+ (with the little notches)
Tsi-Rocket, so yours came with the 90's intermediate, and center diff?

 

[bastarddsm]

TSI rocket, I can't make sense of what your post says, but I think that you need to know that 3rd, 4th, intermediate shaft, and center diff housing all need to stay together across the early 91/late 91 border. They changed the tooth profile, and they are not compatible. It might go together and work, but it certainly will not last long.

Also you need to be carefull with some 90 early 91 stuff. the very early 90's have a different CD body, and it uses a different lower thrust washer. Additionally the early stuff has some oddball needle size bearings and spacers in the clusters. In particular I remember one set I had had a spacer under 3rd gear in between it and second.

Spike, internally it's pretty much just the CD body and lower thrust washer that is different on the very early 90's.

 

[91 GSX]

Sorry for causing more confusion/debate, was not my intention. This 1st quote is from the 8th post of this thread by keltalon quoting twicks. It sounds like they are saying the evo1 1st/2nd gears cannot be separated to combine the 2.571 evo1 1st gear and 1.684 evo2/3 2nd gear(also 1.684 dsm 2nd gear). But that's what I'm trying to verify.

The Evo 1 Input shaft, 1st gear and 2nd gear are a matched set. They must be used together as the 2nd gear is 5% taller than a DSM or Evo 2/3 2nd gear.

This 2nd quote is from this thread as well. Notice the wording "evo 1 HD large diameter", and "evo1/2 HD small diameter". I'm guessing evo 1 had two different versions of hub/slider, both being durable(HD)

Evo 1 HD large diameter 3rd/4th hub and slider- MD747651
Evo 1/2 HD small diameter double synchro 3rd/4th hub and slider - MD746716
92-93 Evo 1 large diameter single synchro for 3rd or 4th gears - MD742536

Evo 1 Reverse idler gear shift lever (MUST USE WITH EVO 1 Input Shaft and 1st/2nd gear assembly) - MD743281

If you are going to use the Evo 3 double synchro 3rd/4th gearset with a USDM 3rd/4th hub and slider assembly (MD747646), you will need to machine the hub to clearance the double synchros, otherwise you will desroy it immediately. You should otherwise use the proper hub/slider assembly from Japan (MD747378).

This 3rd quote seems to be referring to keltolon's evo1 gear box internals, which seems to indicate weak evo1 large diameter hub/sliders.

If your trans has the large synchro 3-4 you'll want to toss those parts in the trash, as the large synchro 3-4 uses the 2g style hub/slider that explodes over about 400ft/lbs.

Are there any weakness issues with the 1st/2nd gear hub and sliders on any of the evo 1-3 or dsm trans?

 

[twicks69]

The part numbers posted above, he simply copy and pasted from a spreadsheet I had posted some info in the past.

I have seen three variations of Evo VR4/EVO 1 stuff in the past. I have had boxes with 1990 style profile gearsets typically from special edition GVR4's like the Monte Carlo edition, super early Evo 1 boxes as well, which both had small diameter single synchro 3/4 Evo ratio gearsets, and 90 style center diff housings and with viscous lsd front diff options and full steel shift forks without pads and forged shift rails. The typical Evo 1 stuff has a later version profile (92-99 style) with two versions of 2nd gear (single and double synchro versions) and large diameter single synchro 3/4 hub and slider assemblies with aluminum 3-hole 3/4 shift forks and forged/broached hub and slider assemblies.

As for 1/2 hub and slider assemblies, there are no issues with the Evo 1-3 broached ones.

Regarding Evo 1 broached 3/4 assemblies, they are stronger than the OEM DSM versions but can still explode the slider.

As for the 1st/2nd gear stuff, you need a matching Evo 1 1st/2nd gear with input shaft along with the reverse idler gear lever to have a matched set. You cannot mix and match.

 

[keltalon]

Holy hell, man. How fast was that dude speeding up to slam into you that hard. It looks like someone hit you at 60mph while you were sitting stock still.

Well its kind of crazy. I lost control of the car way before the rear end impact, The car spun around and the rear end hit the car coming in the opposite direction. 55mph traveling and 55mph traveling in the opposite direction equals a 110mph impact.

Smh jeezus!! Mannnnnnn Wow!!!!!! Dude!! Yeah bro you are fortunate.God's hands bro!!

Yes I am glad to be here.

 

[TSi-Rocket]

Bastard what I was getting at with the mix and match was using the 90 gears because they are suppose to be "hd" and I get what you are saying about 3/4 I overlooked that this morning. I need to research more how people use the 90 HD gears. 3/4 seem to be the gears that fail and if you use 90 input/intermediate your gonna have trouble finding a replacement CTD bc the profile is different than the 92+. The one 90 I opened up had the early CTD with the obsolete thrust washer design. However my evo 1 and 3 early 91s came with the newer thrust design with the same outer gear profile as the 90.

 

[Canadian_CD9A]

For us idiots, what can Evo 1 stuff handle torque-wise if it's still a failing point?

 

[bastarddsm]

Pretty much the same as all of it. The changes to the profile are so minor you'll never tell a difference. First and second are probably stinger, becuause they are closerr to 1:1. The smaller gear in a pair always has the highest bending stress in the teeth. That point is moot thought... No one really breaks first and second, unless you try really really hard.

 

[twicks69]

The amount of torque in 1st and 2nd with traction is obscene, I have broken DSM, GVR4 and Evo 3 1st gears, and I have cracked the Evo 1 1st at the roots but not broken, and that was on a shotpeened and cryotreated gear I magged after about a year or two of usage. I have broken 2nd a few times on the street and once at the track, 3rd many times, 4th damaged but never the root failure, never stripped 5th, even on fwd mode at 45psi though it did great rolling burnouts. I have imploded hubs, exploded sliders, shattered synchros and most regularly double 2nd or double 3rd on a mis-shift/lockout. Bent shift rails, broke rail ends, twisted input shafts, sheared intermediate shafts, sheared output shafts, broken bearing plates, let alone all the differential failures of front and center in the past. When you are racing or abusive you will find a failure mode. It's simply a design limitation and you can only do so much to increase the service interval before failure occurs when you are working with any transmission. I'm happy when I can have one last a season, maybe two at my power level. Even if you go to a different gear manufacturer such as PAR or PPG, parts still fail, just typically you get a longer service interval out of them. Be it from drag racing, road racing, standing mile/salt flats, rally, etc. the parts can and will still fail. We are dealing with a transmission that was designed for 275-400HP for rally usage. Now quadruple the power output and add traction to the mix. How long is it going to survive?

 

[keltalon]

The amount of torque in 1st and 2nd with traction is obscene, I have broken DSM, GVR4 and Evo 3 1st gears, and I have cracked the Evo 1 1st at the roots but not broken, and that was on a shotpeened and cryotreated gear I magged after about a year or two of usage. I have broken 2nd a few times on the street and once at the track, 3rd many times, 4th damaged but never the root failure, never stripped 5th, even on fwd mode at 45psi though it did great rolling burnouts. I have imploded hubs, exploded sliders, shattered synchros and most regularly double 2nd or double 3rd on a mis-shift/lockout. Bent shift rails, broke rail ends, twisted input shafts, sheared intermediate shafts, sheared output shafts, broken bearing plates, let alone all the differential failures of front and center in the past. When you are racing or abusive you will find a failure mode. It's simply a design limitation and you can only do so much to increase the service interval before failure occurs when you are working with any transmission. I'm happy when I can have one last a season, maybe two at my power level. Even if you go to a different gear manufacturer such as PAR or PPG, parts still fail, just typically you get a longer service interval out of them. Be it from drag racing, road racing, standing mile/salt flats, rally, etc. the parts can and will still fail. We are dealing with a transmission that was designed for 275-400HP for rally usage. Now quadruple the power output and add traction to the mix. How long is it going to survive?

I don't expect to see any failures. I keep hearing the fwd didn't fail even at over 600lbs of torque because of spinning but what about when running slicks and making over 20 passes in a single day at the track several days someone has to ask what did he do to the transmission. Not to mention the Quaife lsd broke before any geart thought about breaking! I respect everyone's decision how they want to mod their cars , but just don't understand how someone can speak so negatively because of their own failures. I speak positive because I know what is working for me. Shot peening is a far cry from wpc and I have yet to see anyone use the process on tuners for the transmission. My conviction is based on success and I understand others conviction from all the posts in this thread is based on failure which is understood , that is why I will only post results from henceforth and let the mind wonder what did he do to keep the trans together for so long. Alone with the wpc treatment of the fwd tranny there were also several other steps taking to lead to a bulletproof tranny, I will do the same with the awd. Again reasonable minded people think about this how can I break a indestructible quaife and not a gear someone has to have wondered this, quaife didn't warranty the lsd because they said I was making too much power and that is why it broke therefore since it broke before any gear ,This means only one thing I am on to something for sure here is the video for quick reference Also shot peening does not strengthen the gears as does wpc just wanted clear that up!

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[twicks69]

Whatever dude, I chimed in to answer other peoples questions to clear up misinformation as it is my job on this forum to do so.

As for my "negativity", well, I'm a realist with experience. I've done 30+ in my car and almost 2000 transmissions over the last 8 years. I have a little more experience with this stuff. Saying that your parts simply won't break because of how you are assembling it or because you used WPC on stock gears without even simple detail work being done first is naive. I am being brutally honest because it is my job to not blow smoke up people's asses. Things break, especially when you exceed the design limits. There is no special fairy dust that makes it last forever, it's simply a longer or shorter service life before failure.

And for a fyi, the bolts that hold together the Quaife are notorious for shearing from wheel hop, just like the Belleville washers inside. The ATB helical gears typically don't break but can gall from oiling issues, and the pinion gears can crack/shatter from hard launching/wheel hop.

 

[keltalon]

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

my doesn't wheel hop

 

[keltalon]

Guys sorry I haven't been on the boards but I will be back soon , had two good friends to pass away in the same day. One was my friend Arthur who owned and operated dynolab here in Atlanta so sad!

 

[ceedawg]

Oh man sorry to hear that. Was checking to see what you posted but did not expect this. wow

 

[92AWDHX40]

Sorry to hear that.

 

[keltalon]

I'll be back soon guys still a little down in the dump! Haven't worked on the car much at all.

 

[Dsmkauai]

Get at it bro! . I know it's hard loosing friends and family trust me im no stranger to this either. But they would want you to live your life in there memory. Never forget use it as fuel bro. I've been down the last few years due to my hands. But no more man I got my surgery done on Monday. Now it's time to recover and push forward even harder. Not letting my life slip away like I was. We have to much to live for and a Creator that loves us to much!! Praying for you kels and stoked to see what you have coming. Be blessed my brotha

 

[Canadian_CD9A]

I think bastardssm had it right regarding the Boldt gears.

http://www.4gtuner.com/topic/21982-upgraded-evo2-gearbox/page-9#entry323319

 

[94awdcoupe]

I think bastardssm had it right regarding the Boldt gears.

http://www.4gtuner.com/topic/21982-upgraded-evo2-gearbox/page-9#entry323319

I would like to see pics of the gears if someone can post them here. I am not a member on 4gtuner. as such cant see the pics