Evo 1 Gsr Awd Lsd Transmission In 2g

[mavericktsi83]

3/4 & C-diff. weights for Matthias upgrade:

Intermediate shaft = 6.283 lbs.
3rd gear (input) = 1.126 lbs.
3rd double synchro = 4.192 oz.
4th gear (input) = 1.124 lbs.
4th double synchro = 4.192 oz.
Center diff. housing (less internals) + cover + 8-bolts= 7.422 lbs.
Total weight (less packaging materials) = 16.479 lbs.

I’m assuming some cost can be saved by not shipping the C-diff. both ways to have 2mm shaved off the outer circumference & grind down bolts to clearance the new 4th as that can be done locally. I was quoted 1550euro less shipping (back in June) which comes to $1710usd. BTW, custom ratios available for no additional cost. Includes install instructions but appears to have no warranty on gears or work performed.

Length of intermediate shaft 16.5” (approx.) for calculating box length
Priority Mail Express International = $108 + additional insurance?
Customs import fee (Germany) = 117euro ($129usd)
Shipping back to the States = $108? +
US customs = $0.00 duty free (import duty & taxes)

So unless I’m overlooking something major = $2055ish. I do keep hearing it is realistically around $3000 to do the upgrade but I’m assuming that is with a third party doing the final assembly?

I’m on 4gtuner and Evo123. Not seeing “lots” of Evo guys running this setup. Matthias has 10k on his gear upgrade with no failures—the only review I've heard of. Not sure what Matthias has all done to his trans besides this upgrade but I’m assuming he at least tears it down to replace other items intermediately...can’t imagine he sees long synchro life even with the doubles. I’m not on the ECMlink forums as I run AEM EMS…anyone else have additional details/insight to share? I would like to hear from or about someone with street miles like Donnie mentioned and more about the gears in particular.

 

[keltalon]

3/4 & C-diff. weights for Matthias upgrade:

Intermediate shaft = 6.283 lbs.
3rd gear (input) = 1.126 lbs.
3rd double synchro = 4.192 oz.
4th gear (input) = 1.124 lbs.
4th double synchro = 4.192 oz.
Center diff. housing (less internals) + cover + 8-bolts= 7.422 lbs.
Total weight (less packaging materials) = 16.479 lbs.

I’m assuming some cost can be saved by not shipping the C-diff. both ways to have 2mm shaved off the outer circumference & grind down bolts to clearance the new 4th as that can be done locally. I was quoted 1550euro less shipping (back in June) which comes to $1710usd. BTW, custom ratios available for no additional cost. Includes install instructions but appears to have no warranty on gears or work performed.

Length of intermediate shaft 16.5” (approx.) for calculating box length
Priority Mail Express International = $108 + additional insurance?
Customs import fee (Germany) = 117euro ($129usd)
Shipping back to the States = $108? +
US customs = $0.00 duty free (import duty & taxes)

So unless I’m overlooking something major = $2055ish. I do keep hearing it is realistically around $3000 to do the upgrade but I’m assuming that is with a third party doing the final assembly?

I’m on 4gtuner and Evo123. Not seeing “lots” of Evo guys running this setup. Matthias has 10k on his gear upgrade with no failures—the only review I've heard of. Not sure what Matthias has all done to his trans besides this upgrade but I’m assuming he at least tears it down to replace other items intermediately...can’t imagine he sees long synchro life even with the doubles. I’m not on the ECMlink forums as I run AEM EMS…anyone else have additional details/insight to share? I would like to hear from or about someone with street miles like Donnie mentioned and more about the gears in particular.

Maverick you my friend are the man!! Thanks for the additional information. 2000.00 is a far cry from the 6000 to 7000 over priced dog box for sure IMO! I am definitely getting it done.

 

[bastarddsm]

Man I don't blame you, I've been very close to putting the PAR synchro set on my credit card. It's just hard to drop that much on something unless you know exactly what your getting. Stock input shafts have there limits. Might have made 400ft*lbs when I did that ol.

 

[da_reeseboy]

Hey Kel, call me later today... or at least before you ship overseas. My brother is a machinist and might be able to help out.

 

[94awdcoupe]

the quoted 1700 is for 3rd and 4th and center diff? I would think you would want 5th as well for 1/2 mile pulls..

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all internal gears and shimming in great low mileage shape. the outer gear has two chipped teeth. the worst can be seen in first pic.

 

[keltalon]

the quoted 1700 is for 3rd and 4th and center diff? I would think you would want 5th as well for 1/2 mile pulls..

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all internal gears and shimming in great low mileage shape. the outer gear has two chipped teeth. the worst can be seen in first pic.

Wow I am just now seeing this post. send me your paypal information I'll take it off your hands. Thanks. Yeah he quoted me 2100 for 3rd 4th and 5th gears conversion not bad.

I finally got my gears and shafts back from being cryo and rem finished. I will post pictures when I get to the shop. Here's a short video on why Still think with the cryo and rem followed by ultra sonic shots of the wpc will make the gears almost unbreakable for my setup. with the alignment of the metal through cyro and stress relief of the remfished both done prior to wpc provides a compressive stress layer that none has even experienced in the dsm community. All theoretical but logical and soon will be put to the test.

WPC offers some advantages over shotpeening. Due to the small low mass projectiles and high impact velocities able to compress the root of the gear better, this is where breakage occur most , WPC produces a higher amount of compressive stress and an increase in the degree of grain refinement to the base metal over shotpeening. The velocities are so high that in addition to shotpeening-like grain refinement via cold working, there is also a melting and quenching phenomena going on at a very micro level as well. The result is an extremely fine grained, slip plane less nano crystalline structure with a high degree of surface hardness formed over the surface of the part, unlike shotpeening which has only a slight effect on surface hardness and strength. Because of this ultra fine grained surface, WPC has superior fatigue strength gains and stress corrosion fracture resistance when compared to shotpeening.

I believe the concept of the video its similar to the principle in woodworking of strengthening wooden beams for greater load via lamination of the outer support layer. All theoretical will be put to the test soon with the gears.

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[ist dwa]

You can polish a turd, but it is still a turd. Once over 500ft/lb of torque in an AWD DSM it isn't will it break, but when will it break. All this time and money gonna be down the drain. These cars are 25 years old and every trick in the book has been tried by the best. Buschur quit the AWD thing in 99, Shep prolonged it but eventually decided a dogbox was the only real savior. Any brainiac idea you think you have or because you did some searching on tuners makes you think your gonna build some indestructible trans is asinine. Go ahead with your project, I had fun reading about it, but as many have already told you, it isn't gonna last long.

 

[keltalon]

You can polish a turd, but it is still a turd. Once over 500ft/lb of torque in an AWD DSM it isn't will it break, but when will it break. All this time and money gonna be down the drain. These cars are 25 years old and every trick in the book has been tried by the best. Buschur quit the AWD thing in 99, Shep prolonged it but eventually decided a dogbox was the only real savior. Any brainiac idea you think you have or because you did some searching on tuners makes you think your gonna build some indestructible trans is asinine. Go ahead with your project, I had fun reading about it, but as many have already told you, it isn't gonna last long.

Blah Blah Blah Go stand in a mirror and repeat what you just said above and come back and tell me how you looked saying it, it just save me from saying it besides admission is the first step to recovery That's what they said About my fwd tranny i wpc treated it and its still holding up 809whp over 600ftlbs torque and the awd tranny suppose to be stronger according to the gurus ! By the way post another thread where another dsmer or guru wpc treated an awd drive tranny and it broke and I will delete this post.. Guess what you will not find one not by shep, buschur, tre, twick, jack, none of them quit being so narrow minded , this is the same mind set that has lead to the reason the dsm brand us dying out! shep and those other shops stop doing dsm trannies because they can make more money on gtr trannies not because they have wpc treated one of ours and it broke those guyss reason we got to feed our families thats why they stopped they got tired of dealing withe the broke dsm community do your research! Since i do my own stuff just watch how keltalon does it !

 

[TSi-Rocket]

To all of the people that have stripped 3-4 gear what tires were you running and did it happen on the street?

I could see stripping gears with slicks on at a tacky drag strip. On the street with street tires @ 800hp the gears wouldn't been under so much stress with the tires spinning right?

 

[keltalon]

To all of the people that have stripped 3-4 gear what tires were you running and did it happen on the street?

I could see stripping gears with slicks on at a tacky drag strip. On the street with street tires @ 800hp the gears wouldn't been under so much stress with the tires spinning right?

That is why you can't run slicks and twin disc clutches with a modified stock tranny you have to give the tranny some slip room any idiot know the tranny will break jeeze!. Good clutch with street tires and all the gear treatment is why this tranny will live a long time IMO.

I have a nice center diff with 4 spider conversion and torrington bearing upgrade. it has a couple of chipped teeth. perfect for sending in for the boldt upgrade if you are interested. want 200 for it.

thanks for the good deal I will put it to use

 

[maximum9898]

A guy on the evo forums also was very ambitious to get the wpc treatment on everything in the trans, in the head, Ect.. And in the end, after 100 miles its worn off.. Read through his thread and he says it for himself that you should just invest the money somewhere else on the car. http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/pr...an-s-2016-lightweight-class-evo-10-build.html

I like REM treatment, but it doesn't strengthen the gears.. Here the link for that also..
http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pages/gear-work-and-strengthening

 

[keltalon]

A guy on the evo forums also was very ambitious to get the wpc treatment on everything in the trans, in the head, Ect.. And in the end, after 100 miles its worn off.. Read through his thread and he says it for himself that you should just invest the money somewhere else on the car. http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/pr...an-s-2016-lightweight-class-evo-10-build.html

I like REM treatment, but it doesn't strengthen the gears.. Here the link for that also..
http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pages/gear-work-and-strengthening

wpc worn off how can something that not applied wear off? Basically you saying the metal wore off itself man listen to how that sounds. Nobody has to convince me of wpc I have used it and know first hand the benefits. That's the problem it's the misinformation that leads to ignorance. He had it done and didn't know what he was getting done .

 

[maximum9898]

wpc worn off how can something that not applied wear off? Basically you saying the metal wore off itself man listen to how that sounds. Nobody has to convince me of wpc I have used it and know first hand the benefits. That's the problem it's the misinformation that leads to ignorance. He had it done and didn't know what he was getting done .

Well thats kinda where you are wrong... I never said it was coated. This is quoted from WPC treatment... "Furthermore, solid lubricants such as Tin (Sn) and Molybdenum Disulfide (MoS2) can be utilized as media in the WPC process to embed them into the product surface."

This media they had in the treatment, that was suppose to embed into the metal. That is what had gotten worn off of his transmission gears...

 

[keltalon]

Well thats kinda where you are wrong... I never said it was coated. This is quoted from WPC treatment... "Furthermore, solid lubricants such as Tin (Sn) and Molybdenum Disulfide (MoS2) can be utilized as media in the WPC process to embed them into the product surface."

This media they had in the treatment, that was suppose to embed into the metal. That is what had gotten worn off of his transmission gears...

Yeah the media they use embeds as a extra benefit of ultra sonic high velocity shots of the media blasting at the metal being treated but that's not what makes wpc effective it's what the media does to the metal when the shots hits that makes wpc effective, it is compression of the metal which in turns leads to the metal being strengthen.

 

[maximum9898]

it embeds as a extra benefit of ultra sonic shot blasting but that's not what makes wpc effective it's what the media does to the metal when the shots hits it compression of the metal which in turns leads to the metal being strengthen. So that boom at the end was the sound of your suicide vest

Wow that vest bs was uncalled for get a life... The embedded metal is part of WPC so it did fail and did wear off. Weather its part of it or all of it it still failed. Good luck

 

[keltalon]

Wow that vest bs was uncalled for get a life... The embedded metal is part of WPC so it did fail and did wear off. Weather its part of it or all of it it still failed. Good luck

! It was suicide your comment backfired on you.

 

[TSi-Rocket]

I didn't see where the dudes evo actually broke the transmission gears. He just said the wpc surface look work off. Quote what he said to correct me but I read the entire blog but didn't see it. Maybe I read between the lines.

Molybdenum is used as a lubricant. Look up an oil analysis and you will find all sorts of minerals to help protect the engine from wearing.

 

[94awdcoupe]

I saw that thread on evo m about the WPC wearing off at 100miles. I would take it with a grain of salt. he didnt offer any pictures or any real tech as to exactly what parts didnt benefit. he claimed to have treated all sorts of parts and then just blanket states everything wore off quickly and was a waste of money.. just hard to count data from people like that.

To all of the people that have stripped 3-4 gear what tires were you running and did it happen on the street?

I could see stripping gears with slicks on at a tacky drag strip. On the street with street tires @ 800hp the gears wouldn't been under so much stress with the tires spinning right?

I broke six transmissions in my two cars.
both cars are 100% street cars. I like to drive my cars everyday. building cars for ten seconds twenty times a year makes no sense to me. both cars are on the light side. with smaller easier to rotate, lightest 205 series radial tires i can find.. 22.5-23 inch tall. on 11.5 volk rims. (26-29lbs per corner) both cars have three LSD diffs. no welded centers.

yellow car broke four transmissions. 2650lb car. 170lb driver. soft engaging tilton carbon carbon clutch. very good driver , not hard on parts. 450-550tq at the wheels. transmissions lasted about nine months each. maybe 3000-4000 miles each. maybe a couple dozen hard launches on each, but likely 3-400 pulls in 3/4. all dsm trans with HD gears.

blue car 2800lb . act 2600 with street disc. 400-450tq. evo 2 transmissions. each of the two trans lasted about five years. 10-12000 miles. maybe 1500 pulls 3/4 .

interesting most of these trans didnt break under full power. two did. the other four broke just normal driving at a light cruise. suggesting a cracked gear can hang on for a short time before they let go.

TRE states these trans were designed to handle 275tq. so beyond that the life gets shortened. from my experience pretty drastic shortening going from 450-550tq.

these are my latest gearset in the blue car 1.5 years now. cryo, shotpeened, tre "wpc"
amazing. kinda like chrome plated. I wasnt expecting this. I like torque, gears dont. this should help.

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[92AWDHX40]

Nice tre does great work just picked up transmission yesterday shot peened gear detail and some more goodies should be fun kelaton gonna help for next build excited.

 

[keltalon]

I broke six transmissions in my two cars.
both cars are 100% street cars. I like to drive my cars everyday. building cars for ten seconds twenty times a year makes no sense to me. both cars are on the light side. with smaller easier to rotate, lightest 205 series radial tires i can find.. 22.5-23 inch tall. on 11.5 volk rims. (26-29lbs per corner) both cars have three LSD diffs. no welded centers.

yellow car broke four transmissions. 2650lb car. 170lb driver. soft engaging tilton carbon carbon clutch. very good driver , not hard on parts. 450-550tq at the wheels. transmissions lasted about nine months each. maybe 3000-4000 miles each. maybe a couple dozen hard launches on each, but likely 3-400 pulls in 3/4. all dsm trans with HD gears.

blue car 2800lb . act 2600 with street disc. 400-450tq. evo 2 transmissions. each of the two trans lasted about five years. 10-12000 miles. maybe 1500 pulls 3/4 .

interesting most of these trans didnt break under full power. two did. the other four broke just normal driving at a light cruise. suggesting a cracked gear can hang on for a short time before they let go.

TRE states these trans were designed to handle 275tq. so beyond that the life gets shortened. from my experience pretty drastic shortening going from 450-550tq.

these are my latest gearset in the blue car 1.5 years now. cryo, shotpeened, tre "wpc"
amazing. kinda like chrome plated. I wasnt expecting this. I like torque, gears dont. this should help.

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Hey coupe just one correction tre shot peen which is totally different than micro shot peening at ultrasonic super high velocity "WPC". I will definitely put the tranny to the test car weighs 3450lbs and I weigh 219lbs mix that with a lower gear transmission and rear diff , its going to be interesting. I think most of us base our confidence or the lack there of on our on personal experiences. I broke 3 fwd transmissions making only 500whp. I build the last one the same way I am building the awd and it is holding 600ft lbs with ease. That gear set looks nice

I broke six transmissions in my two cars.
both cars are 100% street cars. I like to drive my cars everyday. building cars for ten seconds twenty times a year makes no sense to me. both cars are on the light side. with smaller easier to rotate, lightest 205 series radial tires i can find.. 22.5-23 inch tall. on 11.5 volk rims. (26-29lbs per corner) both cars have three LSD diffs. no welded centers.

yellow car broke four transmissions. 2650lb car. 170lb driver. soft engaging tilton carbon carbon clutch. very good driver , not hard on parts. 450-550tq at the wheels. transmissions lasted about nine months each. maybe 3000-4000 miles each. maybe a couple dozen hard launches on each, but likely 3-400 pulls in 3/4. all dsm trans with HD gears.

blue car 2800lb . act 2600 with street disc. 400-450tq. evo 2 transmissions. each of the two trans lasted about five years. 10-12000 miles. maybe 1500 pulls 3/4 .

interesting most of these trans didnt break under full power. two did. the other four broke just normal driving at a light cruise. suggesting a cracked gear can hang on for a short time before they let go.

TRE states these trans were designed to handle 275tq. so beyond that the life gets shortened. from my experience pretty drastic shortening going from 450-550tq.

these are my latest gearset in the blue car 1.5 years now. cryo, shotpeened, tre "wpc"
amazing. kinda like chrome plated. I wasnt expecting this. I like torque, gears dont. this should help.

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Hey coupe trust me you can send your intermediate shaft 3rd and 4th gears in for wpc treatement on top of what tre did you will not regret it I promise you. for those 2 gears and shaft cost is around 125.00 turn around time is 3 days. Here is the cost for what I had done this includes the jdm cv axles for the gsr lsd tranny , my needle bearing collars(for oil retention), 3rd, 4th 5th gears and complete intermediate shaft are being treated everything will ship in 3 days hope to have my stuff back for assembly by the holidays so I can get this car back up and running. if you are interested I'll pay half I am a believer in the process fwd 800whp 600lbs no breakage some reasonable minded person have to ask how is this possible! since you are breaking these tranny this will be a great opportunity to put the process to the test.

http://www.wpctreatment.com/durability.htm


Compressive
stress I'll post this video for principle for those who didn't see it, it is in no way shape or form from wpc its is the principle I want to highlight. This video highlights regular shot peening but wpc is shot peening on steroids remember its fine media, secret according to wpc , projected the object 3 times as fast and is a harder media better compressive stress think about it! I had 3 oil pump failures when I had my oil pump and oil pump gears wpc treated , I been running the same oil pump for years now..

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https://www.highpowermedia.com/articles/1184/the-wpc-process/ another good read for the weary

The WPC process
Tuesday, August 17, 2010
Tags : surface-treatments

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​

For those of you with a high boredom threshold, a constantly recurring theme in my articles for RET-Monitor and Race Engine Technology is to stress the importance of compressive residual stresses at the surface of components which are cyclically stressed. The compressive stress is extremely effective in improving the fatigue strength of engine components, and there are a number of ways of achieving this; some of these have been discussed before in RET-Monitor.
There are various surface hardening techniques that also serve to stress the surface of parts in compression very effectively. Among those of note and which are used widely for race engines are carburising and nitriding. There are others such as nitrocarburising (also known as tufftriding) and carbonitriding which offer thinner surface hardened layers but which also stress the surface in compression.
There are mechanical treatments as well, such as shot-peening, which are also very effective and which can be applied to a wider range of materials. Peening puts the surface into compression.
Another technique that appears to be extremely effective compared to shot-peening is the 'WPC' treatment, developed in Japan. The process is similar in principle to peening in that it involves the impact of hard media against the surface of the part to be treated. But it is sufficiently different such that the process has been patented and that the results achieved are different; it alters the nature of the surface material, markedly changing the structure (see Fig. 1).

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I discussed some aspects of the process with Izumi Ogawa from WPC Treatment Co. He reveals that it is commonly used on pistons and valvetrains in motor racing, as well as in transmissions, where it has proven more effective than conventional shot-peening in some applications. It is also widely used for series-production car engines.
Concerning piston applications, it is not only the skirt surface that is treated but also piston pins and piston rings. In the case of pistons, the benefits of the treatment are increased fatigue life, and improved tribological behaviour. Fig. 2 shows a treated piston.

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The commonly treated valvetrain parts are spring retainers and the valves themselves. The benefit of subjecting valves to peening and similar treatments may not solely be down to the fact that the surface is stressed in compression; there is also likely to be some advantage in having disrupted the pattern of machining marks on the valve stem.
In transmission applications, it is common to treat gears where fatigue failures are a problem, and the greater compressive stress the WPC process can provide compared to conventional peening explains the advantage. Clearly, in terms of engine design, we can use this knowledge to our benefit, especially where gear-driven camshafts are used. Providing that the mesh stiffness of the gears remains sufficient, we could employ narrower gears by using this process, thus making the engine lighter and with slightly lower component inertia.
As an illustration of the effectiveness of the process, I was shown some fatigue data for a high-strength steel. The test piece was a notched specimen in a material similar to 4340. The stress run-out for carbonitrided pieces was about 480 MPa at one million cycles. Conventionally peened specimens showed an improvement to 700-900MPa, but the WPC-treated pieces ran out at more than 1150 MPa.
Fig. 1 - The material structure of WPC-treated steel, which was previously carburised, quenched and tempered
Fig. 2 - A WPC-treated racing piston

 

[92AWDHX40]

How available is the process kelaton most states or cities have this.

 

[keltalon]

I

How available is the process kelaton most states or cities have this.

you can only get it done at one place in the united States wpc in California.
The process is secretive and no one else is qualified to perform ite

 

[94awdcoupe]

yeah, Kelvin i can see your WPC parts are more chromy than mine where. I have two evo trannies inline for spares. may have to try the WPC on the next one. but honestly feel the improvement you are gonna get is gonna fall short of the expectations. all style of treatments have been tried. there is no standout according to TRE, JACK, and Jon. they all suggest about 20% increase in TQ capacity should be expected. then you have to weigh how much you are spending. it makes more sense for me to break near stock tranny, then sell the leftover parts that are still good and usable. i end up spending about 2 or 300 on each trans in the end. if you spend 700-800 on treatments you dont get that back.

 

[keltalon]

yeah, Kelvin i can see your WPC parts are more chromy than mine where. I have two evo trannies inline for spares. may have to try the WPC on the next one. but honestly feel the improvement you are gonna get is gonna fall short of the expectations. all style of treatments have been tried. there is no standout according to TRE, JACK, and Jon. they all suggest about 20% increase in TQ capacity should be expected. then you have to weigh how much you are spending. it makes more sense for me to break near stock tranny, then sell the leftover parts that are still good and usable. i end up spending about 2 or 300 on each trans in the end. if you spend 700-800 on treatments you dont get that back.

Those parts in the picture was only cryo and rem I then sent some after these two treatments to be wpc treated. They will be back next week. Wpc recommended that if I performed any other treatment rem cryo to get them done first then send them to them and that's what I did.

http://www.jmf.or.jp/monodzukuri03/en/article/p08/

Here's a picture of the fwd gears after wpc treatment. The awd gears will look like this also. The rem treatment before complement the wpc in that the rem removes the microscopic highs and lows of the surface to gives a more uniform compression

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[bastarddsm]

you guys are all talking about maybe a 10-20% increase in fatigue strength you need a 200% increase to make these things live. It's just not gonna happen.