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2G Engine Failure

Posted by spyderdrifter, Sep 7, 2019

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  1. spyderdrifter

    spyderdrifter Freelancer

    3,317
    340
    Joined Jul 11, 2009
    Fountain, Colorado
    I need some advice/input on my situation. I really don't know what to search for since there's a lot going on here. So, I decided to install my 6 bolt short block I to my 96 TSi. Still used the 2g head, drilled the head bolt holes to 12mm, have a green top 1g CAS, built my adapter harness for the CAS, did everything as instructed by the Magnus info. Keep in mind, this is not the first time I've done a 6 bolt swap, so I am quite familiar with the processes. I got the spark signal inverted, repinned the injector signals on the ecu. Base timing was set properly, and the CAS was set properly for timing. Primed the eng, all was fine. I started the car to burp the cooling system, and I heard faint knocking. The short block was build by a local shop. Has balance shaft delete, king bearings, eagle rods, weisco pistons, and the rest is OEM parts, all replaced new. Due to things, I had to get my car out of the shop and drive it home, 4 miles away. The car has an extremely high idle, 3-4k rpms, and nothing drops the idle. When in gear, it's experiencing clutch drag and that's what's moving the car. Could not go above 40mph, even though I wasn't really trying, it sorta happened. It builds no boost either, and struggled to maintain 25mph up a low hill. Oil pressure was at 30psi until I got home and it dropped to 5psi before shutting it off. I haven't been able to tear it apart yet, again. I did check the oil dipstick, and the oil still looks clean. No metal in it that I could see, but it was just the dipstick. My main concern is the head studs. I used ARP studs but had issues installing the washers. I had a hard time getting them past the valve springs in 4 locations. Is that normal for this hardware?

    I'm just looking for thoughts on what to pay close attention to while I tear it apart.
     

    920  2

    1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  3

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  5

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    automatic · 2G DSM
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  2. Cherry

    Cherry Proven Member

    193
    50
    Joined Jun 16, 2019
    Hull, Georgia
    For the idle, check the system for leaks and throttle cable adjustment first. If those check out then I would do a visual inspection of the throttle plate. There is far too much air getting past the throttle plate to drive the idle that high.

    For the list of things I would do for an idle issue would probably be something along the lines of
    -Base Timing properly adjusted
    -Throttle cable adjusted properly
    -Check for leaks
    -Throttle plate visual inspection (dirt or improper adjustment)
    -TPS adjustment and test
    -ISC/IAC wellness test
    -Proper BISS adjustment

    That would all be free and would give a very good starting point at least with the idle.

    I will say people will ask for a video of the knock since it could be anything and. Others would be better at this issue than an idle issue since I have been fighting my idle issue for a long time now. I should probably do a write up on idle issues and what all the issues could be. For a 3-4k idle way too much air is just getting past the throttle plate. I had a 2.5k idle and my throttle cable was adjusted too tight so when the car would warm up it would open the plate even more. According to Steve it seems that when the throttle cable warms up it will get tighter which is why there should be some slack in the cable while closed. There are other factors as well but I would say those would come in after all the things on or around the throttle body are checked or things that have a specific adjustment like timing.
     

    Street Build 256  3

    1991 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    fwd · manual · 1G DSM
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  3. silvreclips

    silvreclips Proven Member

    1,005
    167
    Joined Jul 19, 2005
    Greenville, South Carolina
    Forged pistons will knock a little when cold. They should quiet up as they get some heat in them.
     

    Autocross Build 187  1

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM
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  4. spyderdrifter

    spyderdrifter Freelancer

    3,317
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    Joined Jul 11, 2009
    Fountain, Colorado
    Thanks for the input. I won't start the engine for a video and risk more damage. Just the sad truth for this. As for the idle, I could hear air being sucked in around the throttle body, so the only thing I could have messed up, I think would be the orientation of the gaskets. The TB is completely clean and rebuilt with new shaft seals, biss and o-ring, FIAV seal, and the two gaskets. But now that I'm thinking about it, I put the tps on before pulling the old engine out, so I never adjusted it. The idle is the least of my concerns for now though, I need to pull the engine back out and pull it apart.


    That is true, however, this was well beyond that.
     

    920  2

    1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  3

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  5

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    automatic · 2G DSM
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  5. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

    4,430
    999
    Joined Aug 26, 2003
    Mendota, Illinois
    Sounds like a case of someone didnt clean the crank properly. Drop the oil into a clean drainpan and see how much glitter is in it.

    As for your head stud issue, yes that's normal. Next time, leave the studs out when you put the head on. Lube the washers, set them into place, then put the studs in. IIRC it was worse with stock dia springs, and less interference with kiggly springs.
     

    Showcar Build 5K  1

    1991 Eagle Talon N/T
    9.805 @ 144.00 · 1G DSM
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  6. rEclipserGST

    rEclipserGST Proven Member

    1,565
    49
    Joined Nov 17, 2007
    Columbus, Ohio
    MAF or SD? Could of been unplugged. Then check BISS and IAC. And of course the TB gaskets you mentioned. TPS and BISS can be figured out easily IF you have link.

    Drain oil and examine.
     

    Street Build 620  25

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    187 whp · 200 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  7. spyderdrifter

    spyderdrifter Freelancer

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    Joined Jul 11, 2009
    Fountain, Colorado
    Unfortunately no Link or SD. Maf was plugged in, even the IAC is new from maybe 3 months ago. @bastarddsm, as for torquing the studs, what is the proper procedure for them? Is it supposed to be the same way the OEM bolts get torqued?
     

    920  2

    1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  3

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  5

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    automatic · 2G DSM
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  8. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

    4,430
    999
    Joined Aug 26, 2003
    Mendota, Illinois
    Afaik, yes use the stock procedure, only to the arp specified value.
     

    Showcar Build 5K  1

    1991 Eagle Talon N/T
    9.805 @ 144.00 · 1G DSM
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  9. spyderdrifter

    spyderdrifter Freelancer

    3,317
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    Joined Jul 11, 2009
    Fountain, Colorado
    What is the specified value? My bolt set only said torque to factory spec.
     

    920  2

    1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  3

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  5

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    automatic · 2G DSM
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  10. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

    4,430
    999
    Joined Aug 26, 2003
    Mendota, Illinois
    What studs do you have? Link?
     

    Showcar Build 5K  1

    1991 Eagle Talon N/T
    9.805 @ 144.00 · 1G DSM
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  11. spyderdrifter

    spyderdrifter Freelancer

    3,317
    340
    Joined Jul 11, 2009
    Fountain, Colorado

    920  2

    1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  3

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  5

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    automatic · 2G DSM
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  12. spyderdrifter

    spyderdrifter Freelancer

    3,317
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    Joined Jul 11, 2009
    Fountain, Colorado
    I got the engine pulled out today, had to wait to get my crane back from my neighbor. Started tearing it apart tonight and everything looked fine, until I got the oil pan off. I drained most of the oil prior to this, but wanted some left to check for glitter, and there's enough in there to donate to a strip club...

    I checked the rods after flipping the engine and all four rods knock back and forth. Never seen this happen to all of them at the same time. So Monday I'm gonna try to get off work early to go to the shop to see what, if anything, can be done. Doubt anything will come of this other than me wasting my money.

    20190914_214436.jpg

     

    920  2

    1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  3

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  5

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    automatic · 2G DSM
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  13. DogWhistle

    DogWhistle Proven Member

    381
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    Joined Sep 13, 2012
    St. Paul, Minnesota
    So sorry to read this thread. Unfortunately, we’ve been there a few too many times. Sometimes the exact cause is hard to pin down, but I believe in at least one of our cases, it was dirt during assembly.

    It sounds like you did everything right during assembly, but the engine prep was out of your control, as it was done for you by the local shop. It will be interesting to see if they will make this right. On the other hand, how can they be trusted?

    There are only good expectations when rebuilding an engine. Sorry you have to go through this disappointment and extra work and expense.
     

    Drag Race Build 720  3

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    2K  6

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder N/T
    fwd · automatic · 2G DSM

    2K  0

    1991 Mitsubishi Mighty Max
    manual · 4G63t Swapped

    3K  6

    1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    385 whp · 378 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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    spyderdrifter likes this.
  14. spyderdrifter

    spyderdrifter Freelancer

    3,317
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    Joined Jul 11, 2009
    Fountain, Colorado
    Due to this happening, one of my friends is buying my talon, complete car minus the engine and turbo. He has a new engine down in Puerto Rico that he's gonna have shipped here. I bought a new car (new to me anyway) that's reliable and doesn't need work except routine maintenance. I decided I can't keep up with two DSMs at once. Been trying to build my GSX, but have had to take parts from it just to keep the talon driveable. No more of that. Just one car at a time.
     

    920  2

    1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  3

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  5

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    automatic · 2G DSM
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  15. DogWhistle

    DogWhistle Proven Member

    381
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    Joined Sep 13, 2012
    St. Paul, Minnesota
    At least it’s going to a friend. Two project cars, of any make, are discouraging at times. We have three going right now (GSX, 86 Race car, and Silverado) and it feels like getting stuck in a revolving door.

    The only DSM combo we found most effective was one turbo, and one non-tubo; either a 2.4, or 420. Despite the hard time people give the 420, ours ran well, and was great to have as our “backup” DSM.
     

    Drag Race Build 720  3

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    2K  6

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder N/T
    fwd · automatic · 2G DSM

    2K  0

    1991 Mitsubishi Mighty Max
    manual · 4G63t Swapped

    3K  6

    1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    385 whp · 378 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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    spyderdrifter likes this.
  16. Boomdeeze

    Boomdeeze Proven Member

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    Independence, Minnesota
    Check your balance shaft bearings to be sure they were turned or the block of bearings were installed. If they were left open, that's where your oil pressure could have gone and the reason your rods took a beating from no oil pressure.
     

    Street Build 4K  1

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    10.793 @ 128.98 · 2G DSM
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  17. jakk220

    jakk220 Proven Member

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    Akron, Ohio
    Definitely sounds like the bottom end was assembled incorrectly. Most likely the crank was not to spec or the incorrect size bearings was used. I had this happen to me before where someone built me an engine with incorrect clearances for both the PTW and the rod bearings. After that I was taught how to assemble it myself and its the best thing I have ever learned. So much time and money saved over the last few builds.
     

    305  1

    1991 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    1K  3

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

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    1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  18. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    Independence, Kansas
    Nothing like saying you did it, be it good or bad. Man Tom, that sucks. Do you have the mechanical skills to do the engine yourself? I am so hard on myself when building engines but it is a good thing. I would say that you can do just as good of a job as your shop did or BETTER!
    Just sayin......
     

    Street Build 3K  27

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · automatic · 1G DSM

    419  14

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    415  17

    1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS
    rwd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 592  4

    1998 Eagle Talon TSi
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM

    Street Build 5K  11  25

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    13.620 @ 108.460 · 1G DSM
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  19. spyderdrifter

    spyderdrifter Freelancer

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    Fountain, Colorado
    Yes, I do have the ability to build my own engines, and I've built them for my last 5 DSMs, but this time, I just wanted it built right. I don't have the fine measuring tools needed to measure the crank and so forth. All the old engines I've just used OEM spec bearings and never had a problem. I was taught how to use the plastigauge stuff for the bearings, but it's been so long I don't remember. Which is why I choose to have a shop do it this time. Guess I'll need to relearn that part. Everything else is easy.
     

    920  2

    1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  3

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  5

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    automatic · 2G DSM
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  20. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    Independence, Kansas
    Its easy stuff Tom. I am a Small Block Chevy guy and just started building these about 5 years ago, but you can handle it man! I have faith, keep your head up!!!!
    Marty
     

    Street Build 3K  27

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · automatic · 1G DSM

    419  14

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    415  17

    1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS
    rwd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 592  4

    1998 Eagle Talon TSi
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM

    Street Build 5K  11  25

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    13.620 @ 108.460 · 1G DSM
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  21. spyderdrifter

    spyderdrifter Freelancer

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    Fountain, Colorado
    Thanks for the encouragement ;)
    Later today I'm stopping by that shop to see if they'll do anything, likely not. However, I'm not out of these cars. I still have my gsx shell I'll be throwing more attention to now. I'm hoping to have it done by next year's Shootout. I had to skip this year unfortunately, but hopefully the gsx will be there next year.
     

    920  2

    1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  3

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  5

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    automatic · 2G DSM
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  22. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    Independence, Kansas
    Atta boy!!!!:) :thumb:
     

    Street Build 3K  27

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · automatic · 1G DSM

    419  14

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    415  17

    1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS
    rwd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 592  4

    1998 Eagle Talon TSi
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM

    Street Build 5K  11  25

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    13.620 @ 108.460 · 1G DSM
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  23. spyderdrifter

    spyderdrifter Freelancer

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    Fountain, Colorado
    Update...

    So the shop did end up taking my engine back and said they would "make it right". They said they'd call me once they found out what was wrong. They never called, I had to call several times and finally got an answer this last Friday. Turns out they didn't install the proper bearings. What a surprise. So they're ordering new, proper bearings and repolishing the crank. Other than that, they said there was no damage. So once it's done, and I have it back, I'm tearing it apart to double check their new work. Gonna have to ship out my turbo to be rebuilt too, yet it's new, and barely has 5-600 miles on it. So another needless waste of money to ensure it's back to being perfect.
     

    920  2

    1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  3

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    1K  5

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    automatic · 2G DSM
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  24. jed344

    jed344 Proven Member

    558
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    Joined Jan 10, 2008
    Waterville, Iowa
    So they didn't check bearing clearance before giving you the motor back? I would also clean everything and anything that oil touches.
     

    810  26

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  25. Doubleot

    Doubleot Proven Member

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    Joined Mar 15, 2009
    Spanish Fork, Utah
    Man sorry to hear this, keep you're head up and check their work hopefully they do it right this time.
     

    Street Build 3K  4

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder GST
    279.1 whp · 325.3 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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