turboglenn
15+ Year Contributor
- 6,375
- 123
- Nov 5, 2007
-
RIpley,
West Virginia
well, ever since making the swap to ethanol i quickly learned that running in the area of 12.8;1 AFR yielded much cleaner pulls with no signs of phantom or "rich knock" and for a long time i've tuned that way with great results, safe EGT's and a weird feeling in my stomach.
Well over the last few days of getting some things on track in my car and fixing some boost leaks that popped up i have began another tune on the AWD setup running the pt6776rs, 1000cc injectors, 1 x walbro 255hp pump with -6 feed and OEM feed made into the return (so you know what i'm working with)
Well, as i've said i've been very happy with the leaner AFR's and made good power, however with this tuning session things ended up richer in the top as i started with higher base fuel prssure as well as having some more "trim maps" come into play like barometric compensation. These few things have added fuel (made AFR's rich) up top but yet consistant and as i've tuned up through the boost ranges in 5psi increments smooothing the pulsewidths between i've come to be running a solid 11.4 and sometimes a tad richer and leaner depending on the RPM and exact boost.
well, the AWD has been a traction blessing but tonight it made me realize something that i doubt is just myimagination (had a apassenger too
) when I was in the mid 12's for AFR's i was pulling awesome but not ripping the tires loose but i didn't expect to in AWD.. the the weirdest thing.. at the same boost and timing levels (temps outside same too 31* F to 35* F ) I did some solid pulls and datalos of the 11.4 AFR and got a greatsurprise.. the rich knock came back as i expected it to, but i set the J&S to not pull the timing,but to only to alert me of the knocking sounds and that's when things got really funny/weird.
At 24-25psi, timing ramping from 16 to 21* (from 4500 to 8k RPM at said boost) The car was becomng much more alive than it did at 12.5 - 12.8, in fact it was a damn animal.. There were several situations where in 2nd gear going straight down the road I was breaking the rears, fronts and sometimes any combo of the pairs loose at 3/4 throttle in 2nd gear, and consistantly (no there wasn't oil on the road)
I kept the AFr's there the remainder of the night (we rode around for about 95 miles cruising and playing through the night) with every stomp of the heavy peda,l when the AFR's were rich i would see a little sign of noise in the engine (i won't call it knock at this point) and with the J&S set to pull 2* , then 3* and then again to not pulling at all, no matter what the setting the car was just insane in comparison to the same results at the leaner AFR.. I was coming sideways off an exit ramp once by accident as i passed the apex and laid into the throttle and the rear end broke free with very little lateral G force and the car was broadside (thank god for some RWD 5 liter experieince), as well as there being many times the rear wanted to pass the front on dead dry pavement.
Well, being that i can globally trim the fuel values i decided to let the closed loop keep things at a good cruising AFR and dialed back the fuel into the mid 12's again.. same timineg same boost..
This time there was a bit less "reported engine noise" but the car was notably and consistantly slower feeling in the lower partof the powerband where there's more torque being made then HP. Although there were no direct signs from the engine that it would be having a hard time or struggling while making any less power, but by damn it was for some reason.. And it may not have been "horse power" that was down, but i think it was torque that took the drop from the leaner mixture.. the pulls in top end felt about the same but the abrupt delivery and raw wheel spin was gone with the leaner AFR's (even if ther engine was "quieter")
All in all i have no definitive "proof" but being one that's always firmly believed to tune my ethanol leaner for less noise i thught this was a nice glimpse into the other school of thought for tuning on e85 as we seem to pick at those who report tuning to 11.0 - 11.5 AFR always saying "go leaner, go leaner" well, maybe we are onto "our thing" = leaner, linear, less torquey curve that makes less engine noise... and maybe they are onto their thing.. richer, noisier, way more torquey/abrupt delivery and dealiing with a little engine noise which the "noise" in my opinion is nothing to pull timing over (which brings me to a side note.. turn theknock sensor down to where it's not catching every little noise, make it ignore as much as you can and only go off when you KNOW there's something not right in that engine... tuning forthe mitsu KS has to bethe biggest handi-cap in people makingpower on the DSM platform that i've ever seen) But anyway.. those of us/you that are "lean-ies" go out and bump up FP or whatver you can to just try a mid 11 AFR for a few hours, telll me what you think.. and those that tune rich.. lean that puppy out a bit for a day and give me your thoughts if you would. I'm seriousely thinking there's not only reason, but benefit to each method/schoool of tuning on E85 and i think both have valid and usefull points so i'd like to hear thoughts experiences from everyone brave enough to change up their game for a day and report back
Thanks!
Lets see if these excel logs showing AFR's and other engine data host correctly
<a href=http://www.filedropper.com/wooo><img src=http://www.filedropper.com/download_button.png width=127 height=145 border=0/></a><br /><div style=font-size:9px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;width:127px;font-color:#44a854;> <a href=http://www.filedropper.com >online backup storage</a></div>
ok, here's all 4 in excel format
dont' mind the column "F" called "air/fuel" it's the 0-5volt signal, look int the last colum called "value" and that's the actuall AFR derived from the widebands signal via the formual =sum((k4/1000)*2+10)
the other colums are correctly labeled
FileSwap.com : glenn.csv download free
FileSwap.com : wooo.csv download free
FileSwap.com : 12pulllll.csv download free
FileSwap.com : woww.csv download free
Well over the last few days of getting some things on track in my car and fixing some boost leaks that popped up i have began another tune on the AWD setup running the pt6776rs, 1000cc injectors, 1 x walbro 255hp pump with -6 feed and OEM feed made into the return (so you know what i'm working with)
Well, as i've said i've been very happy with the leaner AFR's and made good power, however with this tuning session things ended up richer in the top as i started with higher base fuel prssure as well as having some more "trim maps" come into play like barometric compensation. These few things have added fuel (made AFR's rich) up top but yet consistant and as i've tuned up through the boost ranges in 5psi increments smooothing the pulsewidths between i've come to be running a solid 11.4 and sometimes a tad richer and leaner depending on the RPM and exact boost.
well, the AWD has been a traction blessing but tonight it made me realize something that i doubt is just myimagination (had a apassenger too
) when I was in the mid 12's for AFR's i was pulling awesome but not ripping the tires loose but i didn't expect to in AWD.. the the weirdest thing.. at the same boost and timing levels (temps outside same too 31* F to 35* F ) I did some solid pulls and datalos of the 11.4 AFR and got a greatsurprise.. the rich knock came back as i expected it to, but i set the J&S to not pull the timing,but to only to alert me of the knocking sounds and that's when things got really funny/weird.At 24-25psi, timing ramping from 16 to 21* (from 4500 to 8k RPM at said boost) The car was becomng much more alive than it did at 12.5 - 12.8, in fact it was a damn animal.. There were several situations where in 2nd gear going straight down the road I was breaking the rears, fronts and sometimes any combo of the pairs loose at 3/4 throttle in 2nd gear, and consistantly (no there wasn't oil on the road
)I kept the AFr's there the remainder of the night (we rode around for about 95 miles cruising and playing through the night) with every stomp of the heavy peda,l when the AFR's were rich i would see a little sign of noise in the engine (i won't call it knock at this point) and with the J&S set to pull 2* , then 3* and then again to not pulling at all, no matter what the setting the car was just insane in comparison to the same results at the leaner AFR.. I was coming sideways off an exit ramp once by accident as i passed the apex and laid into the throttle and the rear end broke free with very little lateral G force and the car was broadside (thank god for some RWD 5 liter experieince), as well as there being many times the rear wanted to pass the front on dead dry pavement.
Well, being that i can globally trim the fuel values i decided to let the closed loop keep things at a good cruising AFR and dialed back the fuel into the mid 12's again.. same timineg same boost..
This time there was a bit less "reported engine noise" but the car was notably and consistantly slower feeling in the lower partof the powerband where there's more torque being made then HP. Although there were no direct signs from the engine that it would be having a hard time or struggling while making any less power, but by damn it was for some reason.. And it may not have been "horse power" that was down, but i think it was torque that took the drop from the leaner mixture.. the pulls in top end felt about the same but the abrupt delivery and raw wheel spin was gone with the leaner AFR's (even if ther engine was "quieter")
All in all i have no definitive "proof" but being one that's always firmly believed to tune my ethanol leaner for less noise i thught this was a nice glimpse into the other school of thought for tuning on e85 as we seem to pick at those who report tuning to 11.0 - 11.5 AFR always saying "go leaner, go leaner" well, maybe we are onto "our thing" = leaner, linear, less torquey curve that makes less engine noise... and maybe they are onto their thing.. richer, noisier, way more torquey/abrupt delivery and dealiing with a little engine noise which the "noise" in my opinion is nothing to pull timing over (which brings me to a side note.. turn theknock sensor down to where it's not catching every little noise, make it ignore as much as you can and only go off when you KNOW there's something not right in that engine... tuning forthe mitsu KS has to bethe biggest handi-cap in people makingpower on the DSM platform that i've ever seen) But anyway.. those of us/you that are "lean-ies" go out and bump up FP or whatver you can to just try a mid 11 AFR for a few hours, telll me what you think.. and those that tune rich.. lean that puppy out a bit for a day and give me your thoughts if you would. I'm seriousely thinking there's not only reason, but benefit to each method/schoool of tuning on E85 and i think both have valid and usefull points so i'd like to hear thoughts experiences from everyone brave enough to change up their game for a day and report back
Thanks!
Lets see if these excel logs showing AFR's and other engine data host correctly
<a href=http://www.filedropper.com/wooo><img src=http://www.filedropper.com/download_button.png width=127 height=145 border=0/></a><br /><div style=font-size:9px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;width:127px;font-color:#44a854;> <a href=http://www.filedropper.com >online backup storage</a></div>
ok, here's all 4 in excel format
dont' mind the column "F" called "air/fuel" it's the 0-5volt signal, look int the last colum called "value" and that's the actuall AFR derived from the widebands signal via the formual =sum((k4/1000)*2+10)
the other colums are correctly labeled
FileSwap.com : glenn.csv download free
FileSwap.com : wooo.csv download free
FileSwap.com : 12pulllll.csv download free
FileSwap.com : woww.csv download free
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