General E85 on 1000s and a holset, seems to be done?

[95burgundyesi]

Saw a log of a holset hx35 with a setup almost identical minus cams run 28psi on E85 and 950s. Now I have 1000s and on pump at 25-26psi I see 80% duty cycle. I can't see how he got 28psi on 950cc. He only fglowed 2lbs more but was on slightly higher boost.

Any ideas? I was going to go 1600s but if I can do it on 1000s why not. Any ideas would be appreciated.

 

[toofast82]

What was the fuel pressue and a/f ratio on both cars?

 

[95burgundyesi]

Both were base 2g fuel pressure 43.5 is it? I forget But he listed base with the number provided.

Looking at the log he was a pretty consistant 12.0:1 based on dsmlink. While I am at a 11.1:1 or very close on pump.

 

[Mr Peepers]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/253452-e85-injector-max-lb-min-calculations.html

Good way to figure out how much injector you'll need for a given turbo's potential.

The nice thing about e85 is that you can lean it out and get farther with your injectors. I say try it; bump up your fuel pressure a little bit if your pump can handle it.

 

[kahl23]

If he was running a leaner AFR than you are then there's your answer as to why his IDC's were lower.

 

[95burgundyesi]

Well I should be flowing 45lbs or close at 27-28psi. Based on similar set ups, give or take which puts me at 80% according to the chart. Now LINK says PTE 1000s flow 940cc accually so that puts me 90-93% at 45lbs.

For the intresting part, I am already at 80% on pump at 25 psi. So that makes me think I have a 190 walbro and not a 225. Time to buy bigger I guess and see what happens. Lines and everything are fine, because I just rewired it and went through a small deliverly problem.

 

[Car Cannibal]

Go Bosch 044 and consider Meth Injection to help even more. I have a similar setup on a different car and the Meth can help big time on IDC while allowing a TON of boost and timing to be run.

AF/R like mentioned has a lot to do with IDC.

 

[jrohner]

Well if you're flowing 45lbs/min of air, that's only around 10% more than me, and I'm only running 750cc injectors on E85.

 

[turboglenn]

What are you running for a pump? I was having issues right at 25-26psi on my 57 trim when i stepped up from 720's to 1000's and when i still ran out of fuel at the same time i decided i build a dual pump setup and once i finally got 2 matching 255hp pumps in it, i've had all the fueling i need. This is on a 57 trim turbo which supposedly by garrett's map can flow enough air to generate damn near 500 horses in the best case senario (i say best case because i've pushed and pushed this turbo and haven't hit 500 yet..the 332 was a pump gas 20psi tune

But anyway, you are probably in need of a better pump or an additional pump to keep the rail full. as you know it takes a good bit more E85 compared to gas to get the same AFR's, but is well worth every last ounce of it.... I just wonder when the volume of fuel will start to displace too much room in the combustion chamber raising the effective compression ratio just that much more

 

[jrohner]

I just wonder when the volume of fuel will start to displace too much room in the combustion chamber raising the effective compression ratio just that much more

Well it's not like we're running the 2:1 AFR of nitromethane or something. I would think it would raise the CR slightly, but that would be a good thing since E85 can handle it [compression] better than pump gas.



I would think that just looking at how your fueling is adjusted, you could pretty much tell if you're running out of pump.

 

[95burgundyesi]

Well I bought a walbro 255, but after seeing IDC with 720s and 1000s on pump I knew the fuel pump was my weak point. So I rewired the pump and on pump gas, 1000s were at 80% Still high I guess but worked for the mean time while still on 93 octane.

Now I want e85 and have to look at the pump again. I had a friend with a scm6162r at 30psi run e85 on a single 255 walbro. That turbo is a 35r and flows more air than me so I think a single 255 would be sufficante. I was wondering is low or high pressure would make a difference though, but I don't see how it would.

And then I might need to replace the feed line from filter to rail. I am not sure yet.

 

[toofast82]

I was wondering is low or high pressure would make a difference though, but I don't see how it would.

And then I might need to replace the feed line from filter to rail. I am not sure yet.

I'm assuming you're talking about the fuel pumps. The HP flows quite a bit more at higher fuel pressures or under a decent amount of boost.
I would definitely look into upgrading the feed line in the near future! It's definitely on my list

 

[2gGSX]

Post a log. You'll be able to tell if your fuel pump is not keeping up from the log.

 

[95burgundyesi]

Ha I have a 190 in the tank. When I bought the pump I was told it was a 255. So Friday I will have my 255. I plugged in some numbers and converted cc into liters a min then hour and it has to be a 190. It is rewired and there is no way a 255 flows like the numbers I got, But the 190 fits like a glove


And for the log of my current tune, it's on the laptop...in a friends car 200 miles away until this weekend haha but I will get it up here.

I have word from friend on e85 that they made 28-30 psi on the stock line and a rewired 255. So for now I will run it.

 

[Car Cannibal]

A proper E85 fuel system is all about the kind of power you're going to make. Going from a 190 to a 255 hot wired isn't that awesome considering E85 automatically eats up 28% of it's volume.

Why not do it once and go Bosch 044, from here you can easily tweak everything else when needed unlike when you run out of volume on the 255 and will have to pull the pump again.

 

[JayRolla]

I agree, go with the bosch pump and 1600's. Dont look at others setups. Just go off the math and get the larger injectors to be safe. My brother see's 74% IDC's on e85 with 1000cc injectors and thats only flowing 38lb/min on a 16g.

 

[kittay]

Just FYI, for E85-
1000cc @ 100% IDC will support 55.89 lbs/min.
1000cc @ 80% IDC will support 44.72 lbs/min

 

[Car Cannibal]

Ya injectors are one piece of the puzzle, start robbing around 30% of a fuel pumps volume and you're in some trouble at 75psi unless you have a beast ( 044 is this very beast ).

I went -8 feedline on my gas setup so if I were back there, I'd run -10 with the Bosch and see how far my current injectors can take me. -10 line will free up some pump pressure/volume by not having to push so hard through the stock line at WOT.

Injectors are much less of a hassle to swap than pumps and lines, one and done dude.

 

[ed_dogg23]

My .02. . . . Im on a 255 hp, 1200s, 60 trim, and 6an braided from the stock location of our filter and at 34 psi the idc is aroud 78%. On the dyno the fuel pressure was up over 75 psi. On the other hand going all out is even better but for broke ass peeps like me I can not wait to save that kind of money. I just want the car running!!!!

Oh, and can someones else call Slowboy for me and tell them I need my turbo back? They are so sick of me calling, begging, whinning and all that. Its only been 3 freakin weeks since OLIVER told me it would be next dayed!!!!!!!!!

 

[95burgundyesi]

This is what I came up for math. Using the table-

1000cc @ 100% IDC will support 55.89 lbs/min.
1000cc @ 80% IDC will support 44.72 lbs/min.

So a holset hx35 in bolt on housing at 28psi flows between 40-45lbs a minute. I will just call it 45 to be safe. 80% off 1000cc is 800cc. Thats 3200cc with 4 injectors or 3.2 liters a minute. Times 60 minutes is 192 liters an hour. Thats not factoring pressure drop from the pump to the rail. you would have to hook a gauge up at the pump and at the fuel rail to see the difference. At 100% injector duty cycle 1000cc will flow 240 liters an hour, still below 255, the flow rate the walbro 255. So unless I messed something up I think it might accually work, never does though

Also leaning out the A/F and calculating on the high side should give me a little room. I am expecting 86-95% duty cycle before I lean it out with just the new pump.

I have the new pump already and it takes ten minutes to pop the new one in and put the seats back. I will just try it and see. If this doesn't work I will replace the feed line.

 

[Mr Peepers]

Pumps lose flow at higher pressures. Add psi of boost to base fuel pressure and see what a rewired 255(14v?) flows according to its map.

 

[95burgundyesi]

Well call it 30psi and 42.5 base is 72.5psi. But whats the formula or chart to see flow rates at certain psi. I understand the need to look at this though. I am starting to doubt a single 255 rewired will keep 1000cc injectors below 90 IDC.

 

[jking29]

Look here for the flow charts for the Walbro pumps. Walbro Pump Flow Info
It looks like a 255hp will deliver around 180lph @ 72psi. So you are definitely going to want to remove any restrictions to flow to be able to get close to maxing the injectors out. I have a rewired 255hp with FIC 1000's and I upgraded the filter and filter to rail line to -6AN. I will have results on a hx35 and e85 in a couple of weeks. I have a date scheduled to get my car tuned on the dyno for June 6th.

 

[95burgundyesi]

Update! I was able to run 29psi on my hx35 flowing around 42lbs/min. at 93% injector duty cycle. Before switching to e85 I upgraded the line from the filter to rail to a -6 ss line and that alone dropped my IDC 10%. Most likely more because the log I based IDC on before the line was only at 25psi, and this pull was on 29-30psi. So the feed line really really helps! And it loves timing!! I am sad though that I don't have the bottom end to really add some timing and more boost. O well 1grod/2g piston is working good for now.

The only thing I am dealing with now is Some boost issues. Within less than a week the car ran funny whiel trying to build boost. It does not like to roll into boost and spool very slow. I am thinking fuel filter or gummed up injectors. I know the fuel filter needs to be changed a few times after the first few tanks but this was awefully quick. I will make a separate thread about this, since I can't get my laptop back for a few days to look at IDCs and stuff.

 

[Car Cannibal]

Sounds awesome, what timing are you running though with 29psi?

Your -6 upgrade shows how restrictive the stock banjo and line are and how vital a proper system is when running E85. If you keep in mind that E85 needs 28% more, you need to use that concerning your pump, lines and injectors to really dial the whole system in.

Notice any coolant temp differences with the E85 switch?