E-85 and Coolant Temps

[habitatguy187]

So I've been playing around with mixing e85 and 93 pump lately. (I know I know, don't give me crap for it, if I blow it up so be it )

But anyway I've noticed quite a decrease in coolant temps (according to the stock gauge, haven't logged the temps yet) I was wondering if this is normal when people switch to e-85? I've read that it cools the cylinders, but my gauge use to linger right around the middle and now it's moved over to the beginning of the "water" in on the gauge.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Maybe a little bit but I wouldn't get your hopes up about it. Get a logger on it and see, I've never notice a vary big drop maybe 5-10*. although it does take longer to warm up. FYI I started blending E85 with 92 about 2 years ago before going straight E85, just get it strait on E85 if you have the fuel system for it

 

[JayRolla]

Yea I noticed a little drop. It takes my car forever to hit full temp. I can drive 10-15min and when I get to work my fuel trims are still dont cycle. I use the stock boost gauge to read my fuel trims so I can see it.

 

[habitatguy187]

FYI I started blending E85 with 92 about 2 years ago before going straight E85, just get it strait on E85 if you have the fuel system for it

I'm heading that way, going to be super cheap about it (for now) but mathematically everything will work fine . What were your results with mixing? I read a pretty good article on e85 and it stated that when it's mixed with gasoline the octane raises from 100ish to 116ish. Not sure how accurate that is but the rest of the article was pretty right on so if that's true then a mix can have higher octane than straight e85, it's just more of a pain/less consistent.

It takes my car forever to hit full temp. I can drive 10-15min and when I get to work my fuel trims are still dont cycle.

Yeah this is what I noticed. It was about 80 out and I went out and started my car then took the dog out and talked to my wife for a few, went out about 10mins later and the needle was only up to 1/4 of the gauge. I just wanted to make sure this was normal since I've never read anything about it.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Well 2 years ago there was not even near as much info on E85. I had no Idea how much more fuel it was going to take. So I got an Idea by starting to mix it never was very fun trying to figure out what mix was in the tank. So I just drove it to empty one day and filled it up with strait e85. Those octane ratings while mixing are BS e70/e85 has an octane rating that high but not while mixed less then 70/30.But honestly I see you have only 550's and realy wouldn't recomend even trying to run E85 it takes about 30% more fuel I would say if you have plans on running the boost up past safe pump gas levels(with a good amout of timing) your gonna need/want at least 850's and I would recomend at least 1150's and a 255

 

[habitatguy187]

I understand that right now I don't really have the means (750s are in the mail though)

But really this doesn't worry me much. The stock afr under WOT I've read is 9:1, waaaayyy rich. If you ran straight e-85 that would take your WOT afr to 12.3ish:1 , not too bad for e-85. (I guess most guys aim for 12:1)

So a mix isn't going to hurt anything on WOT pulls, even if I mixed it 50/50 (which I haven't been). And with my 550s and 2g mas setup I run rich all the time, so rich in fact that the fuel trims are all maxed out taking away fuel, so it LOOKS like I'm good to go as long as I don't get too crazy. I really need to get a wideband though...

Anyone have any opinions/find any faults in what I'm thinking?

 

[MY1GDSM]

What IDC are you hitting now ?
There's one big problem with you saying you asuming that your going to be at 12:1 without a wideband
Also your getting to the point that with that much ethanol you can go very lean and not be picking up much if any knock,also What are you using to tune the car?

 

[donniekak]

Yea I noticed a little drop. It takes my car forever to hit full temp. I can drive 10-15min and when I get to work my fuel trims are still dont cycle. I use the stock boost gauge to read my fuel trims so I can see it.

When i ran e-85 last winter i lowered the temp sensor threshold for closed loop.

 

[habitatguy187]

What IDC are you hitting now ?
There's one big problem with you saying you asuming that your going to be at 12:1 without a wideband
Also your getting to the point that with that much ethanol you can go very lean and not be picking up much if any knock,also What are you using to tune the car?

I was in mid 70s on 93 pump. And I have nothing to tune with

I know that a lot of people say that I'm playing with fire, but mathematically everything's well within specs. Fuel trims can handle closed loop fine, and my injectors can handle the WOT pulls (with a mix)

I'm going about this the cheapest way possible, which of course isn't going to be the safest. I'd love to get an eprom ecu, Jackal and huge injectors and run E85 the right way but it's nowhere near in the budget right now. So I might blow it up.

But hey, afterall it's just a toy, that's why I bought it. If I blow it up then I'll get to tear it down this winter in my new garage, more learning and I'll be able to take my sweet time with it. Compression isn't that great anyway.

Oh and by what I've calculated a 30/60 (might've been 40/60 the paper's at home) mix of e85/pump will put your WOT a little richer than 10.6 afr.

 

[rstchris]

If you are on a crazy budget I would say at absolute least adding a afpr and borrow a friends WB to get it as close as possible. If you are on a budget like you say then replacing a block with a big hole in it is out of the question.

 

[habitatguy187]

^^^ Here we go again. There's a lot of wrx guys that run a 30/70 mix of e-85 on their almost stock cars. Mine is "hacked" in that I have a 2g mas and 550s, that tune allows me to run more than 30/70 without consequences.....mathematically.

I'm going to go with it, if it adds up then it's probably ok. A lot of you are probably going to freak when I run my 750s and straight e85 with no tuning either. Again though, mathematically I'll end up on the rich side, I don't feel I have anything to worry about, which is why I'm going through with it. It's not like I didn't do research first.

 

[My1GLaser]

So there isn't a problem with blending pump & E-85 in and of itself, right? Just that you are doing by "shooting from the hip?" (with research of course, so educated shooting )

I am planning on blending a 50/50 mix tomorrow and dialing in a tune, but I have Link, a WB & 950s. Do you have a link to that article you were talking about?

How much better does the car run & pull on the E-85 blend over just 93 pump? Any 70-90mph or track times or just the good ole butt dyno? Did you ever run meth and have a comparison?

 

[rEclipserGST]

If you are on a crazy budget I would say at absolute least adding a afpr and borrow a friends WB to get it as close as possible. If you are on a budget like you say then replacing a block with a big hole in it is out of the question.

Got to love these responses, just a waste of space. No help what so ever. I'm glad I got flamed for mixing 9 months ago. But thank you for giving it a shot, plenty of cars run on pump or e85... new chevy's and etc. Why the hell wouldnt it work if you mixed it?! Exactly.

So do your thing, post results and logs please. I am also Widebandless and I have 550's, 14b turbo, and a logger. Start the half-ass wave please

 

[donniekak]

There are several problems tuning e85 without a wideband. The most important is that pure e85 will burn a hole in a piston before it knocks. Some of the other problems are the non uniformity of e85 at the pump. There are 3 different grades of e85 that switch from winter to summer dependant of region. I ran a mix in my stealth sometimes, always 5 gallons of e85 to 12 gallons of 91, my tune needed adjusted each tank full. I'm not one to tell anyone how to run their car, but these cars have been around forever, and there is a clearly defined mod path. Sure there are many ways to skin a cat, but everytime i see people skimping on tuning essentials they break something, eventually. As far ar reading nb o2 from the logger i have seen 11:1 on the wb read from .80v to .95v on the same run.

 

[MY1GDSM]

I am planning on blending a 50/50 mix tomorrow and dialing in a tune, but I have Link, a WB & 950s. Do you have a link to that article you were talking about?

Just empty the tank and goto strait E85. make sure that change your fuel filter out after a few tanks and you'll be alot happier than constantly trying to dial your car in with the different mix each time you fill up

 

[BoostFrenzy]

Just empty the tank and goto strait E85. make sure that change your fuel filter out after a few tanks and you'll be alot happier than constantly trying to dial your car in with the different mix each time you fill up

Technically, you are supposed to do that with every fresh tank of E85 too. The ethanol content of E85 fuel can actually vary from 60% to 92% ethanol. This, is why most people who are running E85 dial in the car a little fat so it doesn't matter what % they get, it still will run fine.

 

[My1GLaser]

Just empty the tank and goto strait E85. make sure that change your fuel filter out after a few tanks and you'll be alot happier than constantly trying to dial your car in with the different mix each time you fill up

If I had it locally I probably would, but I have to drive 100 miles one way to get it and I only have 25 gal worth of cans.

Its my weekend car and I probably don't use more than 10 gal every 2 weeks, so I will only need to make a trip once every 2 months with a 50/50 blend. Plus I don't know if I have the fuel system to run straight e-85 and 28psi. I don't mind changing my tune once every 2 weeks...for now anyway

 

[JayRolla]

Technically, you are supposed to do that with every fresh tank of E85 too. The ethanol content of E85 fuel can actually vary from 60% to 92% ethanol. This, is why most people who are running E85 dial in the car a little fat so it doesn't matter what % they get, it still will run fine.

E85 is a minimum of 70%, so it wont ever be 60%. Also when the fuel changes the stock o2 should take care of it if your fuel trims are good.

 

[habitatguy187]

Do you have a link to that article you were talking about?

How much better does the car run & pull on the E-85 blend over just 93 pump? Any 70-90mph or track times or just the good ole butt dyno? Did you ever run meth and have a comparison?

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/hangout/308569-best-e-85-write-up-i-have-seen.html

No times yet just butt dyno, and it felt like a pull in 50* weather even though it was 80 somethin outside

There are several problems tuning e85 without a wideband. The most important is that pure e85 will burn a hole in a piston before it knocks. As far ar reading nb o2 from the logger i have seen 11:1 on the wb read from .80v to .95v on the same run.

That doesn't matter though if the stock timing map is 9:1 under WOT conditions. As I stated, 9:1 calculated into straight e85 is around 12.3:1, still not bad for e85 since I've read that most guys running it tune for 12:1, so a mix should be no problem at all, even for a stock fuel system running 15-16psi.

Plus I don't know if I have the fuel system to run straight e-85 and 28psi. I don't mind changing my tune once every 2 weeks...for now anyway

A member on here named "Jrhoner" is running 28psi on a 16g with full e85 and 750s, you should be fine. The tune should only need changed if you're really trying to get the most out of your setup, I seriously doubt the differences in mixtures is going to be enough to make you feel. it.

Also when the fuel changes the stock o2 should take care of it if your fuel trims are good.

Exactly! WOT is going to be the same afr, cruising on the other hand is what you have to look at. You have to look at your fuel trims to decide how much e85 you can "safely" run and that your ecu can adjust to, WOT shouldn't be a problem.

 

[donniekak]

This is a similar topic to running a 2g maf and 550cc injectors as the only method of tuning. Will it work, somewhat. Is it the best solution, no. If you payed to have your car tuned and this is how they did it, would that be accpetable? I just don't see the worth in doing it like this. I have $50 wrapped up in an eprom burner and chips. That is the cheapest, and one of the best methods to tune a 1g.

 

[habitatguy187]

This is a similar topic to running a 2g maf and 550cc injectors as the only method of tuning. Will it work, somewhat. Is it the best solution, no. If you payed to have your car tuned and this is how they did it, would that be accpetable? I just don't see the worth in doing it like this. I have $50 wrapped up in an eprom burner and chips. That is the cheapest, and one of the best methods to tune a 1g.

I fully agree with you that it would be awesome to have an ostrich and burn my own chips. If I went that route I'd run speed density though. But to do that I'd have to first get an eprom ecu, and I haven't seen burners for less than $100 yet so that's quite a bit of money wrapped up right there.

But again a properly running 1g could easily run 20% e85 without any problems whatsoever, and since the 2gmas and 550s changed my fuel trims in the way that they did I can run more than 20%. Probably in the 45-50% range and still have fuel trims under control.

Now the real question is about e85 mixed with gasoline to make 118 octane..... If that's true then every DSMer should be running at least 20% e85 in their cars if they can.

 

[donniekak]

$16 eprom burner. PCB35 Willem EPROM Programmer EEPROM,FLASH,PIC,AVR,MCS - eBay (item 250489336583 end time Sep-03-09 20:03:48 PDT)

 

[knochgoon24]

Where are you getting your octane ratings from?

Most places cite it as being 100-105 octane. One of the biggest advantages for us turbo guys is that it cools the intake charge better than gas.

Too bad that write up (Ethanol Fuel FAQ (E85 explained) - ClubIntegra.com - Acura Integra Forum) didn't cite a source for it's octane ratings. I don't understand how you can get 118 octane by mixing something with 93 octane and something that's 105 octane.

 

[habitatguy187]

$16 eprom burner. PCB35 Willem EPROM Programmer EEPROM,FLASH,PIC,AVR,MCS - eBay (item 250489336583 end time Sep-03-09 20:03:48 PDT)

Thanks for the link! All I've ever seen to use was the ostrich burners which are like $175 so this is great.

Where are you getting your octane ratings from?

Most places cite it as being 100-105 octane. One of the biggest advantages for us turbo guys is that it cools the intake charge better than gas.

Too bad that write up (Ethanol Fuel FAQ (E85 explained) - ClubIntegra.com - Acura Integra Forum) didn't cite a source for it's octane ratings. I don't understand how you can get 118 octane by mixing something with 93 octane and something that's 105 octane.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing, and my google search didn't yield any answers I was looking for, but I don't know much about chemical reactions but I wouldn't write it off as impossible. I might join that website to ask the guy who posted this about it, but he might not even be on there anymore.

Found some more info on the octane blending, seems to be pretty widely accepted.

Ethanol Myths from Aussie Ethanol - E85 conversion systems - Australia and New Zealand

E85-What octane is the 15% gasoline? - Subaru Forester Owners Forum

Blue County in a Red State: E85 mixtures get BETTER mileage?

 

[Dark_Horse]

For ethanol
129 RON + 102 MON / 2 = ~116 Pump rating for pure ethanol alcohol

116 pump rating 85% + 87 pump rating @ 15% would be 111.65 octane for E85. Now switching this to E70 would drop this to 107.30 pump octane.

Which is why pumps in Colorado say "Minimum octane rating = 105" when you purchase E85.

In truth, it is difficult to quantify E85's real octane rating. The reason is because E85 burns colder than gasoline so it cools the charge much moreso than gasoline does (methanol even moreso). So while the octane rating may only calculate out to between 107 and 112, the real world octane, at least IMHO, is a lot higher than that...which my be where the person in the integra link gets 118 octane from.

I have never been able to find a link that talks about the octane rating of the blending gasoline they mix in with Ethanol to get E85, so I just assume it's 87.