DSMlink, why so much?

[Madcap]

We all know Dsmlink is the end all be all of all tuning options for our DSM's. Why is it so damn expensive? In reality all you are buying is a cable, an Eprom and software. You would think someone else would be able to come up with something cheaper. DSMchips is similar to a degree only there's no software to make your own changes.

 

[dsm-onster]

He is speaking for everyone who bought ECMLink and didn't regret it. How many do?

You ARE being sarcastic and cynical, taking it personal but not liking it when others do. You want to understand personally why the cost is "so high" and personally don't want to feel like you got ripped off if you buy. To quote you, "it always turns personal when someone has nothing intelligent to say." If you don't want others to interject their personal feelings, then don't as us to debate with you on YOUR personal feelings of value. No one can tell you how to feel; we CAN tell you how WE feel. So you use your personal intelligence and draw your own personal conclusions about what a product is worth to you personally. We needn't hold your hand personally while you go over the ECMLink website, and Ceddy's thread, and Jackel's site, and whatever else you're personally comparing.

I will never change my tuning instrument:
-$60 98-99 Mitsubishi ECU (Yes you can cross flash the Ceddy ROMs to ANY 98-99 Mitsubishi ECU)
-$169 OpenPort 2.0
-Free Ceddy Mod ROM

Had made more than 50 flashes to my ECU never had a problem
The reflash has never failed me
And shutting down the for the reflash won't make me spend another $500 for the same results

Well no you donot get the same resulting features and benefits. You should look down the list of the ECMLink features and see if your solution can match it. There will be several holes. And those gaps fiilled by Link are VERY, VERY beneficial.

This is why it's worth it to me PERSONALLY. Not because Tom and Dave like money and I like them to have it becasue they are fine people that just try really hard. But because of the results of their time. They've individually invested 15-20 TIMES the man hours in one year than most of those who've developed more affordable options have ever put into their product currently. This is no offense to those folks, because that's why there is alot more there. Lots of guys work hart, but they've been working hard enough for long enough to earn the pay for those hours by coming up with significantly more options; but then also better service, and streamlining the content for the novice end user, and giving options that open it up to the more experienced tuner, and on and on. For heavens sake, they even have an eprom conversion for the 1g already so you'll never have to pay more than $165 to get your ecu compatible for them, so no hunting for more expensive eprom ecus (+$250) like most other solutions. With a 2g eprom conversion in the works right now.

And yet we all keep saying, 'Well, X is the same as Y; and Y is the same as Z' . . . I've used dsmap, EvoScan/ecuflash, LiveEdit, TunerPro RT, PCMX; ECMLink soundly and thoroughly exceeds all these in features, benefits, and ease of use. PERSONALLY, in my opinion, from my point of view, through my perspective, in my eyes, to me, I think, in my mind, cause my wife said it, after I found a turd that I sh!t had resembled ECMLink and I thought it was a sign, because I LIKE BACON . . . Some will get that last one

What is the point of this thread?

 

[HurleyTSi]

What is the point of this thread?

Not quite sure glad someone pointed that out.

Not sure if he's trying to start an ECMLink strike or spark us all into making a similar otion for less.

But all i really gotta say is....and this goes for everyone who hates ECMLinks prices...


YOU DON"T HAVE TO BUY IT!!!! so quit crying.

 

[donniekak]

I edit my own eprom images, and have never ran into something I wanted to do, that I couldn't research and figure out how to do. I have nothing against dsmlink, it has advanced the platform. If I was paid minimum wage for the time I spent learning what I know about programming my own eproms, I would be over $600. The bottom line is that they sell it for $600 because people buy it, capitolism. If anyone on here has something people will pay $600 for, but says they would sell it for $200, or $100, or whatever, has no idea how the world works, and will fail at any buisness they would ever attempt to start.

 

[92AWDHX40]

I have a non eprom and its hit or miss soo ill just have the non eprom service done at the same time. It will save me the hassle of spending 250 or so, dsm monster made a great point there. And im still spending less than getting one and adding link to it.

 

[ed_GST]

Well no you donot get the same resulting features and benefits. You should look down the list of the ECMLink features and see if your solution can match it. There will be several holes. And those gaps fiilled by Link are VERY, VERY beneficial.

What is the point of this thread?

By results i mean WHP and TQ
That if i want 18 deg of timing advance i get 18 deg of timing advance
If i want an AFR of 11.0:1 i get an AFR of 11:0:1

With the help of Ceddy the reflash has gone further adding 1byte load, 2byte load, cel on knock, 2step, antilag, map switch, NLTS, big maps and now speed density
This plus all the 20+ maps that can be modified to make the car behave as you wish

Isn't that the point of a engine management system?
Why search for one if from stock you have it already?

Point of this thread ... I think is a valid point because if DSMLink were $200 cheaper maybe i have bought it but its high price made me search for another option
And i found it.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Everyone will have their choice of tuning systems pricy or not, also everyone has thier idea of pricy. Other things for my car are pricy, compared to other things. Whatever makes us happy i guess.

 

[Turbowing]

DSMlink is by far the most advanced tuning system for a dsm so far. Besides AEM were you need your PHD to get the car to idle properly. I have recently just ran 10.9@140 on DSMlink.

DSMlink FTW

 

[habitatguy187]

The ONLY thing that makes me want link is the simplicity, and the ONLY thing that pushes me away is the price. And I believe that for the majority of dsm'ers these two things will be the main deal makers or breakers in buying link.

It really makes you curious as to whether or not if they sold it for cheaper if they would make more profit, maybe not in the past since there were no other good options, but in the future and even now I think that they would have ended up losing more and more customers to other options, which is why they're coming out with linklite.

I'm still undecided in which route I'm going to take, the way I see it the extra $145 I'd be paying for linklite over tunerpro could go towards a wideband or a better fuel setup, or even more importantly, diapers.

I guess that when I think about it rationally I see no reason to buy link, when I could spend some more time learning how to use a different tuning option and save some money which I could be putting to a much better use in another area of life. (diaper money)

 

[twdorris]

I can't possibly respond to everything here. But I do take offense to someone calling this a "cash cow" for us. If anyone believes we're raking in the dough, they need a reality check.

We are barely getting by and that's it. There's a reason we're not sporting big trailers to the track or driving new cars. There's no BIG money in this. We charge what we have to in order to stay in business. That's the bottom line.

We're offering services and investing in development of new products that nobody else does. We can only do that by charging what we charge. Any less and there would be no overhead to invest in stuff like the 1G non-EPROM conversion or the 2G non-EPROM conversion we're trying to finish up. Or drop-in flash modules that basically convert 20 year-old ECUs to modern flash equivalents. You don't need separate logging and flashing cables and you don't need wires hanging out of your ECU. It's a nice, clean, well-supported drop in conversion and a lot of people flat out prefer it for good reason.

Bottom line, I work 10-14 hours PER DAY and most weekends trying to keep up with support while also trying to develop new stuff. If I had put that kind of time into the high-dollar consulting gig I gave up to do ECMTuning full time several years ago, I'd be a crazy rich dude right now.

So it's not about money. I gave up real money to do this because I really thought it'd free up more time to spend with the kids. But, clearly, that hasn't happened either. Our schedules are certainly more flexible, but the net result isn't any more "free time".

So why are we still doing it? Because we enjoy it. It's fun working on these cars and these ECUs. And it's fun being part of the community. This is the same community we've been a part of for 15+ years! And we are still apart of to this day. There's a lot to be said for personal satisfaction and right now, I'm pretty happy knowing we've developed something to be proud of.

I get e-mails almost daily from guys with other cars asking if we'll ever support their platform. That includes the new EVOs! I explain to them that ECUFlash and EVOScan exists and they are often already well aware of that. They just prefer our software and our approach. So I really think we're doing something right even with all the nay sayers.

DSMers should be proud of the community they have and that includes the commercial side of things. There are many, many other platforms out there that really "look up" to the DSMs in a way. They wish there was as much cool stuff available for their cars as there is for the DSMs.

Thanks to everyone standing up for us here, BTW. We seriously appreciate the positive comments. It's too easy to get drug down with the few negatives you hear from time to time.

Thomas Dorris
ECMTuning, Inc.

 

[95gst16g]

Another example of ecmlink's great customer service is,I had a computer shop ''socket'' my eprom ecu.They used no socket whatsoever,they had messy solder on the top of the pins and the bottom.My ecu kept reseting and the car would just randomly die.I sent it in to them and when they got it they fixed it that day and I had it back a week later.Anyways they could have screwed me out of another 30 bucks for a eprom,but instead they salvaged it for me.If I was them seeing how the chip was in there I would have just cut it out and made the person buy a new one.I appreciate what they do.

 

[robbo185]

I can't possibly respond to everything here. But I do take offense to someone calling this a "cash cow" for us. If anyone believes we're raking in the dough, they need a reality check.

We are barely getting by and that's it. There's a reason we're not sporting big trailers to the track or driving new cars. There's no BIG money in this. We charge what we have to in order to stay in business. That's the bottom line.

We're offering services and investing in development of new products that nobody else does. We can only do that by charging what we charge. Any less and there would be no overhead to invest in stuff like the 1G non-EPROM conversion or the 2G non-EPROM conversion we're trying to finish up. Or drop-in flash modules that basically convert 20 year-old ECUs to modern flash equivalents. You don't need separate logging and flashing cables and you don't need wires hanging out of your ECU. It's a nice, clean, well-supported drop in conversion and a lot of people flat out prefer it for good reason.

Bottom line, I work 10-14 hours PER DAY and most weekends trying to keep up with support while also trying to develop new stuff. If I had put that kind of time into the high-dollar consulting gig I gave up to do ECMTuning full time several years ago, I'd be a crazy rich dude right now.

So it's not about money. I gave up real money to do this because I really thought it'd free up more time to spend with the kids. But, clearly, that hasn't happened either. Our schedules are certainly more flexible, but the net result isn't any more "free time".

So why are we still doing it? Because we enjoy it. It's fun working on these cars and these ECUs. And it's fun being part of the community. This is the same community we've been a part of for 15+ years! And we are still apart of to this day. There's a lot to be said for personal satisfaction and right now, I'm pretty happy knowing we've developed something to be proud of.

I get e-mails almost daily from guys with other cars asking if we'll ever support their platform. That includes the new EVOs! I explain to them that ECUFlash and EVOScan exists and they are often already well aware of that. They just prefer our software and our approach. So I really think we're doing something right even with all the nay sayers.

DSMers should be proud of the community they have and that includes the commercial side of things. There are many, many other platforms out there that really "look up" to the DSMs in a way. They wish there were as much cool stuff available for their cars as there is for the DSMs.

Thanks to everyone standing up for us here, BTW. We seriously appreciate the positive comments. It's too easy to get drug down with the few negatives you hear from time to time.

Thomas Dorris
ECMTuning, Inc.

well said. If he only knew all the time you guys spend on your forums just helping people with their problems (for free might I add), maybe he would see that the 600 bucks is a cheap price to pay. I know you have helped me on at least 3 separate occasions.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Looking forward to purchasing the new version ecmlink3.

 

[boostedjay32]

"If you think ~$600 is unreasonable, you should see how much people are spending on K swapped cars just for tuning solutions..."

HAHA my friend swapped a K into his crx Cost like 6k + Hondata
and this is what it looks like in the weekend . Not running. (But quick when it is)

Dont mind the dsm I was just cleaning things up and checking for play

 

[Achelea]

I have yet to purchase any tuning software, but I tend to agree. Look at the cost of other parts of the car. Trans rebuild, engine rebuild, tires, wheels, brakes, roll cages, seats, pain jobs, etc etc. There is are a lot of other parts on our cars that can easily wander north of $600 if you are trying for quality parts.

And a majority of these parts are static. They do 1 job and 1 job alone. Some are adjustable to a degree. But that's it. They do what they are designed to do and do it well.

Wheels just roll and hold the car up, but people pay a pretty penny for them.

The brakes only stop a car, but they aren't cheap. Pads can be changed easily enough, if you spring for it, you can adjust bias.

Transmissions can run over a grand, but you can't really adjust anything while it's in the car. You can select gearing and internals, but it's not like you can pull out your 5th gear if you are feeling spirited that day.

Adjustable seats are expensive as well. Some static ones are too. But then most people choose one position and stick to it, or only use the car for racing.

As for tuning, if some one has the time and wants to put in the EFFORT you could make your car run as good as some one with most programs out there. Some programs decode the information for you. And even others can let you adjust some of the settings for different uses. And the high end ones pretty much do everything you would want or need. Short of basically manufacturing an entire new computer for the car. . . which is Extremely expensive.

They build it, and actually listen to the needs of the customers, and make revisions as they go. They are working on these things out of passion for the car, not for the dollar. If they were trying for money, they would have dropped these old cars for something where the owners have deeper pockets.

It's a fair price to pay for a Hobby. Which, when you get Right down to it. Unless you are professionally racing, that's all it is. A really EXPENSIVE toy with a Huge following and very understanding vendors.

TL;DR - The price is very fair for the amount of work they put into it. It's an extremely flexible tool that does more for a car than any other car part equal in price.

 

[jrohner]

With the alternative tuning solutions we have now, I think it's AFC's that are the rip off; I ebayed my SAFCII and got most of the money to get what I have now. I got my Evo 8 ECU for $55, and the openport 2.0 cable for $189 with flash connectors for mitsubishi and subaru. I can tune whatever I want, run speed density. No emissions or other useless sensors with no CEL. ECU-controlled boost (way better than any MBC). Now that 98/99 ECU flashing has come about, I wouldn't have even needed a different ECU to tune.

I also think link is too expensive, but that's because there are other solutions out there that work great and are less than 1/2 the price (and I'm fairly tight with my money). I was very unimpressed with the older versions, but this new one does look pretty sweet. What they are doing is a total tuning solution and running as a business. You can't expect them to not make money doing it. There's a lot to running a successful business.

Look at what it costs to tune other cars and you will crap yourself.

If you want something else, go with the reflashable ECU's (98/99, Evo 8), or an EPROM ECU. Either is great.

 

[Turbowing]

I have heard very good things about the Evo ECUs but 600 isnt a bad price for a tuning system that has seen 8s.

I have been 10.97 @ 138 on this software.

And Tom Dorris and Dave provide Excellent customer service

 

[Madcap]

What is the point of this thread?

Have you read the ENTIRE thread? It has opened up a pretty good discussion about alternative tuning options and ways to improve current and future tuning solutions. I've been asked stupid questions as to why I would bring up the topic, if I get stupid questions, I'll give you stupid answers. I was ostracized as if I had looked a gift horse in the mouth.

I've taken nothing personally. What someone has to say about me behind a computer screen means nothing to me. Most have seen this as a great discussion of possiblities. Other have seen it as blasphemy. You'd think we were talking about religion.

I'd like to have a Moderator close the thread. If my motives continue to be questioned I will continue to defend them with the same explaination over and over. If people are really that angry with me PM me. Other than the arguing I believe this thread has been informative.

And to Tom, as a business man I hope you can understand and appreciate some of the questions that have been brought up from a consumers view point. And any discussion about your product is benifical. Any press is good press as they say. And that's also true for the other option brought up.

I'll see everyone around while discussion less volatile subjects

 

[twdorris]

And to Tom, as a business man I hope you can understand and appreciate some of the questions that have been brought up from a consumers view point.

Sure. I hope you understand my reply as well. Hopefully getting the answer straight from the source helps reduce the confusion of so many opinions being posted.

Thomas Dorris
ECMTuning, Inc.