DSM 1/4 mile time lists of old...

This is the single best thread I've read on here in 8+ years--thanks to everyone for the great stories!

 

You won't. You have to now.

 

Yes, it was tough getting into each new time zone. I read Sean's post down a few from yours and he says it wasn't tough getting into the 11's. Well the reason for that is it had already been done by the time he got into DSM's. Getting into the 10's was tougher because it wasn't something that was laid out in black and white already. The DSM's ran low 15's stock new, mine ran a 15.11. I bought the first on in November of 1989. I then bought my black cherry '91 in 1991, the car John Shepherd has now. That car was the one I really started modifying. I did a Dynomax 2.25" catback, K&N filter, Horgen manual boost controller and ran a 13.48 with it first time I went out with it. I was HOOKED. I wanted to go 12's and back then EVERYONE said it was absolutely impossible. I aligned myself with Turbo Performance Center in MD. He was a Porsche guy and HKS dealer. HKS was going to release this great new engine controller called a VPC. I got the FIRST one ever, wasn't even in a box. In order to get it I had to drive to Glen Burnie (SP?)MD and have it installed by Mike the owner. I did that, he used a Fluke meter and the 02 voltage to dial it in. I returned home and built more parts. Offroad pipes, down pipes were all BRAND NEW never before offered parts then and I was making them to sell. The car dropped into the 12.90'.s It was a HUGE ordeal, Mike used the car in his ads in Turbo Magazine because of it. Then I said, I want to go 11's. He laughed his ass off. About a year later I had put together a formula to do that too, like now you just buy the right parts, drive decent and run the times because it was all right there on how to do it. Getting into the 10's was tough as hell. I refused to gut my car or take the interior out. I refused to run without exhaust, just like now I wanted my car nice AND fast. There were no good tires for street cars then that fit. We were running on a re-capped radial with some soft compound on them we called "Green dots".

Man I could go on and on and on.....

 

No one is stopping you from going on.. and on and on..

 

What would I do different? Oh man, that's a tough one. I have very few regrets. We've outlasted every single DSM shop that was around in the beginning, well Archer Racing is still around but doing Vipers. I don't have many regrets. A lot of people I wish I had never met or wasted time with is the biggest one for me. I think though, so I don't get off on a tangent, you are talking simply about performance.

So, based on that, I would have to say I'd have simply moved forward sooner on technology. Fuel management being one for sure. I'd have also NOT built such a lightweight chassis for the tube car. It worked but did not work that well and we had a lot of handling issues with the car because of my demanding it be super light. By the time Brent decided to use Gary to build his car too, Gary new better than to use the super light/undersized tubing we did on my car. It was safe but not as rigid as it needed to be. I would think running 6's at this point in time in a tube chassis car would be a near no brainer and I'd think it could be done reliably without 80 psi of boost. I mean our black EVO ran 172.74 mph, which is damn near the same as the tube car did and that was shifting a standard stock trans through the gears, more weight, AWD, no real aero work, no nitrous etc. etc.

I'm building a new toy now, '32 Ford 3 window coupe. Ford 9" rear, TH400 trans, same engine/head/cams/turbo/engine management that's in the Bad Bish, should be fun. About 2300 pound when it's done. Was suppose to be a cruiser but I think it will end up doing something else.

 

I remember seeing on EvoM that you were doing a new Coyote 5.0 Mustang build. Is this still a project as well?

 

Awesome read! I still remember much of this, as if it was yesterday!

Sean and Dave touched upon this, but I think that it is important to point out VPC’s role in the DSM history. For many people, VPC made it easy to go fast! It, along with a few mods made it pretty easy to run low 12’s. But it didn’t really become popular and effective until Todd Day started TMO, which created modified chips and a way to datalog things!

The combination of TMO/VPC and SAFC really made the difference! It make crude VPC a somewhat viable tuning tool! What many people didn’t realize was the limitations of VPC… Its “3 bar MAP”, which should have given you 29psi, actually went flat at 23-24psi, so anything above that boost was just extrapolated in a linear manner, based on RPMs. It is a wonder why more people didn’t blow up their engines, but they didn’t (I am sure that race gas helped a lot). That is part of the “VPC magic” which many techies (like Sean) detested and many “practical tuners” (like me) embraced!

VPC/TMO/SAFC combination worked, despite the fact that it shouldn’t have! People went fast and that made it popular! Unfortunately, because of this early success, people stuck with VPC longer than they should have. What early on, gave DSM community an advantage, in later years caused a bit of a delay in growth. Many of us could have been faster in ‘00/’01 if we have gone to standalone EMS. But that is easy to say looking back…

 

Hi Sean! That 70mm did work well. For those that do not believe Sean, he speaks the truth. I will vouch for him, I've worked on the car.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to discount the VPC as holding the cars back. With modded chips the 4g63 was given what it wanted for timing and fuel. Hard to argue with how fast the BR tube frame Talon ran. Takes a lot of HP to run that MPH. Especially with a nonlockup converter glide.

 

Oh, come on! Knowing what we know today, VPC SUCKED!!! Dave, knew his stuff and he made it work "well enough". He was fast INSPITE of having VPC, not because of it! I have little doube that he would have gone even faster had he switched to some sort of standalone EMS.

As I said before, VPC stopped seeing boost at 23-24psi. That is 16G level of boost. So really, you shouldn't use with any larger turbo.

And before you group me with the rest of the VPC haters, you should know that I was one of the faster VPC guys back then, having gone 10.7 on it, back in 2001. I finally switched to AEM EMS in 2002, but I should have done it sooner!!! I kept seeing 13.5:1 AFR's on the dyno (running consistant 450-460 whp on a Dynojet) and thought "I can't possibly be THAT lean, or my engine would have bown". Guess what? I was that lean!!! And my engine was saved by my insistance to always use race gas.

 

Completely agree with GRNDSM on the VPC issue. I have two datalog screenshots to share to illustrate this point perfectly with the map sensor limitation. These were logs from 2001 on my yellow 1g done on an FJO wideband that had it's own onboard logging. This was so "back in the day" that it was over $1000 for a wideband o2 sensor and honestly, noone had them back then other than shops and on the dyno. The graphs show rpm, wideband, and the AUX is the VPC map sensor.

VPC with boost set to about 27-28psi


VPC with boost set to about 25psi



The other thing that hasn't been mentioned is that around the same time that VPC was "cream de la cream", our overall datalogging, wideband, and information was still quite lacking. Most of us were tuning with the oem oxygen sensor at the track, and if we had access to a wideband, it was attached to the dyno and not available at the track or on your datalogger. As I said...back in the day a wideband was $1000+ item. We didn't have map sensors with enough range to handle the boost pressure most of the fast guys were running. We didn't have control over ignition timing on the basis of being able to tune it at the track run by run without screwing with the CAS or fudging the fuel settings at the same time. We were basically trying to juggle boost level, AFR, Timing, Knock with only one variable that is intermingled: Maf frequency (or VPC generated estimate frequency). When you got lucky, it worked great. When you weren't lucky, racegas covered your butt for the most part.

Granted, back in 2000-2001-2002, most of us didn't know crap about tuning anyway so even given an AEM EMS + wideband +5bar map, we weren't able to take advantage of it on the enthusiast level. We had very basic tools and at the same time only basic knowledge to use it.

 

Hey Dave, what made you buy the unknown import at the time? Was it because you had the turbo Buicks and knew maybe I could get these 4Bangers to go fast? They werent cheap in 1989! Ha I was 19 years old and couldnt afford one.

I had to wait till 10 years later and still drive one today. You should keep one in your stables if you dont already...

 

Awesome reading material. I havent read this much "way back material" since way back. I got into dsm's when they started picking up in my area and i think the fastest one then was like 12.1. I thought it was the coolest thing since sliced bread, and immediately fell in love. Of course i was 16, and my first dsm only had a fuel pump, injectors and mbc and ran a best of 14.3 on a 14b. Ive owned nothing but dsm's and mitsu products since and cant wait to get the one i have now to the track on this new setup. Just need one of sheps trans to run as hard as id like. Keep this thread going its awesome.

 

Nate, I had similar looking boost logs (after TMO released bata version of their datalogger, which gave us an ability to log boost). At first, I had boost set at around 24-25psi and though: "Boy, my boost controll is VERY GOOD!!!". A week later, moved the boost to 28-29psi range and noticed that logged value hasn't changed! That is when I realized that what was going on! I even borrowed Mike Rizzotti's MAP to make sure that it wasn't a problem with my MAP. Next, to make sure that it wasn't a problem with my manual gauge, I added another gauge to the set-up!!!

The result of this experiment confirmed my original speculatioin: VPC MAP did not see above 23-24psi!!!

So when you guys read about early days records, keep in mind that it was done on relatively low boost, few people vetured much above 30psi and those who did go up to 40 psi, didn it blindly!

 

Still a great thread, I remember the green dot recaps.

 

I'd like to know who started filling blocks first and when exactly this started.

You guys are really both responsible for what this is today. We thankyou.
I think a you guys should do a reunion build. Maybe some sort of charity event where the big names from the past can take part in building a 16G or 20G car on a small budget all the same. Maybe meeting up at the shootout next year?? I'm sure a couple bucks from each person could make this happen. Just as thought.

 

I remember 5 years ago when I converted my 90 to an auto, and Brad telling me about all your ventures attempting the auto conversion back in the day. Talked about how crazy it was that making it work seems so simple now in hindsight, but back then somehow every expert on the planet failed epically.

I miss the good old days of racing for a win. These days it's all about record chasing it seems, in the "import" world. It's just not as fun to watch, or be a part of.

Another thing I've seen over the years is the evolution of the DSM shootout. I still have a blast every year, and probably will never miss one as long as they exist, but it doesn't feel the same as it used to. Probably just because of increased communication online, etc, cars being around longer, and already knowing a lot more than we used to. I remember when I first started going back in 2000ish, every year you never knew what you were going to see, there was always someone guaranteed to show up with some sort of new trick or technology that either worked out awesome and put on a good show, or failed majorly. Saturday nights there were repairs, last minute tweaks, etc, going on all over the parking lot. We all partied and had a good time, including some epic shenanigans, but it wasn't a bunch of bros throwing a frat party like it is now. Back then we started out with a caravan and picked up people along the way. Seemed like we couldn't stop at a rest stop on the trip without running into other DSM guys. These days I make the trip with about 3-5 locals, and we don't see any DSMs along the way. Kindof funny considering the growth in attendance every year. While more people are showing up, I think less DSMs/Evos are showing up now. Just seems like the cars competing get faster every year, while the number of people participating gets smaller. A lot more people used to be into the fun runs, etc, and everyone was fearless - we'd make the 8 hour drive and beat the hell out of our cars, race them down the track, etc, without hesitation or thinking twice. I remember all the years Ed drove his car from Va to Ohio, no trailer, and won stock appearing, and we never even had a single moment of "what if something breaks?" These days 9/10 DSM guys won't even bring their car because they are scared they won't make it out of their own town.

I also remember a day when a "local meet" would yield 100+ cars. Now a local meet is 2 cars, maybe 3. As much as the Evos helped revive DSMs, they also helped kill them I think. The Evo crowd seemed to be half ex DSM guys, and half snobs that wanted nothing to do with DSMs and ignored the Evo history, and quickly shunned the DSM community, making it difficult to mesh two crowds that should have easily become the same community.

 

Reading this was enjoyable. Actually reading things from people who actually know what they are doing and talking about is a pleasure. I wish you guys would start a thread where you answer questions and shut the bench racer and armchair mechanics up. It seems the new trend is to trash on manual transmissions and make claims about how the quality of reputable transmission builders isn't what all these guys of yesteryear claim them to be. It makes me sick hearing people telling others that a Shep transmission or TRE transmission or part from Buschur won't hold up more than three 11 second passes before breaking.

Then you come and read the words of people who have been there and done that, so refreshing to actually derive something useful from a post again. Please keep this thread alive and full of real stories of real experiences.

 

I agree
Alot of junk parts being made for all cars. Chinese ebay junk breaks or doesn't perform as it should. Good quality US made parts by the guys that know what they need to go fast REPEATEDLY. Shep, Buschur ...thanks for the parts, the entertainment, and the support over the years. Keep up the great work and good luck Dave raising the bar to the next level!

 

What I have found interesting for the DSM's is that the VPC was utilized completely backwards from traditional fuel management. In that respect, it had a tuning limitation and the way around it was to make the rest of the car work to it. Backwards, but it worked--- sometimes. The VPC that I had always felt like the knobs were disconnected. I also had the GCC as well, and that too acted the same. I had 550cc injectors, 20G and the car was pissed off more than it was happy. That was on my 90 GSX that eventually was Jack's car. No matter what I did, it was never right. The interesting part was that when I decided to make the Talon "the" car, I had started to disassemble the Eclipse and return it to stock. The first thing I took off was the VPC and stuck the stock mass air meter back on with the one screen removed. It was really interesting as even though it idled with too much fuel, it actually ran better everywhere else than it had ever run before. That was mine and I know others have worked. I also agree that Todd Day made improvements, but that was on something that I felt was a limiting factor to start with. During that time I did have the opportunity to work with some on Supras.... now THAT was a different story. Turn the "idle" down.... next thing you know it is stumbling. Turn it up and it is sputtering on fuel. VERY responsive. From there I got hooked up with Doug and his PMS system. Damn I wish he would have used a GM sensor, but he had that love of Ford sensor. Again, it worked, but to a point as we over ran the sensor. I did get into larger ones, but soon after I went standalone.

Now, I do know one of the people that had bought John's red 92 Talon and when he got it we looked it over--- VPC (and I think AFC II) still installed. That car ran great with it. So it seemed more like when you had a good one and worked you were going to run well and the AFC addition didn't hurt either. Ones like mine were best suited to hold down a shelf or shim a leg of a wobbling table.

For the DSM's there were three milestones that changed tuning forever. First was the AFC. The first sucked as it only had one curve, but when the AFC II came out with throttle points and two curves--- THAT was perfect and on top of it all it worked like a charm every time. Next was DSMLink. When Dave of ECM Tuning had his original variant of it, this was the time of Lyle Holmes and his 2G. It was a new season and the PMS simply wasn't cutting it anymore. At that time his ECU had a GForce eprom that was supposed to have all sorts of stuff done--- it only had the rev limiter raised 500rpm. That was it. While on the dyno and being frustrated, I had that "great idea" and borrowed a prototype version of DSMLink. With a stock 2G MAS that was gutted I began tuning.... the only problem that we ran into then was that the eprom was programmed through the throttle.... made it very interesting and you had to pay attention, and secondly it had a hard programmed injector scaling of 550cc injectors in it and the 800-1000cc injectors that we ran.... we ran out of adjustment. So as a temporary patch on top of an already temporary solution I had another customer that had a car at the shop that was taking out his original AVC with the knobs..... we wired that in and for a quick fix, it all worked. That weekend Lyle went 11.2 @ 127 if I remember correctly. It was wild as there were the naysayers that swore it wouldn't work, but pass after pass it ran like a charm.

The third was standalone engine management. I have run Haltech, AEM, Autronic, Motec, ProEFI (when it was the sequential 4 way back when), and now the new ProEFI. I have to say that for me it was a gift of life. Unlike today's standard of "plug and play", back then it was wire it, play with it, get pissed off at it, almost get it to run, then get it to run and then go and play. I also remember my first wideband--- a Baily engineering "box" that took forever for the sensor to heat up and was about the size of my lunch box when I was in kindergarten. It gave a whole new insight to tuning as previously everything was a "A/F" meter whether it was a Norskog or some other unit that hooked up to a stock sensor. I have to say that it was impressive to run 10's and not have a wideband..... Now with direct plug in boxes and jumper harnesses that are all pre-done.... it makes for everything to be that much easier without all of the drama.

So what do I like the most is going to be the question. Well, unlike some with a catch all, it depends. I have used DSMLink before it was even DSMLink and to this day I still use it. I also use many different types of reflash software and that also has worked well too. For standalone units I have to put my favorites as ProEFI and Motec. The main reason is for support and control. With engine management I am a demanding control fanatic and it must all work correctly. With those two they have been spot on. I stopped using Haltech years ago as I had moved on to AEM when they first came out. Autronic is also a good unit as it is very precise, but support is lackluster, so I had to spend most of my time figuring things out on my own. No matter what system, I went 8's on the Haltech, AEM, and Motec.

Now the retread tires..... they worked, but it was always a little disconcerting that you would get some with the "core" being mounted up backwards in respect to the tread. The other thing that I never liked was that on the street they were squirmy as they were really really soft. They worked, but we stopped running them when Jack came back one time with a 4" chunk missing in the center of the tire.

 

You know, after reading this thread I have a whole new perspective on our cars. I was only 13 when I first saw Fast and the Furious and that's what got me hooked on the DSM. I have had 5 since then and I will never stop loving these cars. I know all of us younger guys appreciate the guys that paved the way for these cars and really started modding the 4g63 and giving us insight. For you guys to contribute to this thread and for us to hear your stories of first owning these cars is awesome. Thanks a lot

 

Wasn't Doug Derby the guy who started Doug's Dyno in Vegas? IIRC he built the first twin turbo DSM using 2 T25's.

 

Doug started way before Vegas. 95 Durango Copper Pearl GSX. Dougs Dynopower.

 

wow..seems like this wasn't that long ago, Sean, i don't know if you remember but you sold me my first e6s eons ago and helped me get the wiring right over the phone as i did the swap to my new 26k mile 2g in my g/f's parking garage with a butane soldering iron. NOw i'm a dealer and installer tuner as well

AS for proEFI, if you talk t Jason Siebles, Tell him to make his brother Kurt call me

good old days, i'm not even gonna tell stories but enjoy the times in my head thansk for a great thread!