Does GM MAP allow for MAF deletion?

[v8s_are_slow]

I'm gonna order dsmlink but trying to figure out what I need to order as far as the MAF settings goes. Buddy of mine says that you can get a GM MAP and it'll see all the airflow and allows you to delete the MAF. Not sure if this is true or not. The guys at Dsmlink have allowed me to view the forums but I can't post there and can't find the answer.

I'm seeing guys that run high airflow numbers having problems with the GM MAF and are doing some sorta "switchover" but have no clue what they're talking about. Since I'll be running a T-67 that flows about 75lb/min with an sbr stage 6 head and comp 101400's, I'll definately be in the flow area that'd make me have problems if I'm using the GM MAF. If it's possible to use just a GM MAP and delete the GM MAF, that'll take care of the problem. IF being the keyword.

Any input appreciated. Thanks!

Scott

 

[WikedSicc]

Off hand, I do not believe you can do this with dsm link. That being said, what you are talking about is speed density. On a dsm, you get rid of the maf and the manifold differential pressure sensor. You splice a map sensor (such as a gm map sensor) into these as well as a IAT sensor (inlet air temp). Once again, I am not sure that dsm link can do this on account of the fact it is a piggy back and the entire fuel map needs to be changed when doing this.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Yeah, I wasn't really thinking so either but my buddy was saying he knows a guy who's done it. But who knows. Either way, gotta find the best route to go since I'll be using a GM MAF and maft and hearing about people having problems in the higher airflow numbers using that with link. Maybe if dsmlink switches over to that it'll be good. Till then, gotta figure something else out I suppose.

 

[GVR4592]

There's at least one person running a speed density setup with a stock ecu and a modified eprom chip. Dsmlink doesnt allow the use of speed density, instead of a maf sensor...yet.

 

[Steve93Talon]

I am not sure that dsm link can do this on account of the fact it is a piggy back

DSMLink is NOT a piggyback!

You can use a MAP sensor with DSMlink and then set a point at which it will ignore the MAF and use the MAP sensor instead, but you still need a MAF in there. For your goals, have you considered an AEM?

 

[v8s_are_slow]

DSMLink is NOT a piggyback!

You can use a MAP sensor with DSMlink and then set a point at which it will ignore the MAF and use the MAP sensor instead, but you still need a MAF in there. For your goals, have you considered an AEM?

I really don't wanna go with aem mainly just because I'm sure the tuning would be a lot easier and want fewer headaches. Not planning on driving any kinda rally or auto-x, etc. Just drag and street. But may look into it anyway.

I wish I could see how easy it is to do the switchover. Is it just a box you check and then set the parameter where it ignores it or something?

Could someone give me the web addy for the aem? Been awhile and was wanting to look it over now that you mention it. Thanks!

 

[GVR4592]

Switching to speed density with aem is easy. The website is www.aempower.com
You can download the full software from the site to play around with.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Okay, I believe they (dsmlink) allow the use of a maf and then you can somehow switchover to a "fake" maf when you reach a certain airflow when you're about to get maf overrun. Sure they're about to maybe release a new version hopefully soon which incorporates a full speed density. Here's an e-mail I received...

That's a lot of airflow. I'd go with a 3.5" GM MAF and, I suppose for now, a MAFT. We hope to be able to incorporate the GM MAF directly into the ECU this winter, but until we get started on that project, I can't make any promises.

We also hope to add support for speed density (MAP and temp sensor only), but at this time, that's not supported for full time operation.
The Fake MAF function supports a switch over to a psuedo speed density operation, but that's not what you're talking about here.

Thomas Dorris
ECMTuning, Inc.

But looking at price tag of over $2,400 for the AEM just makes me when compared to the price of the dsmlink. I really don't wanna take a long time trying to figure out the AEM like I've heard a lot of people having to do and don't want anyone else but me to tune it. Dyno's in my area are far and few and don't really care for anyone else working on my car anyway.

I'm going with some pretty big toys for my car though. Big turbo, big cams, big ported head, etc. etc. etc. I really can't see the justification of spending almost $2k more on this setup over dsmlink if people with dsmlink are already running in the 9's. I'd ask for the pros and cons to compare between the 2, but I know I'm NOT gonna spend that much money for that setup.

 

[1fastlaser]

You wanna go fast,gotta spend the cash.Once you get into 950s or bigger,big turbos and worried about air flow its time to ditch the piggy backs and go for a stand alone!!!!!!!!

Im working on it now,the head ache will be worth the trouble.Because id rather have a car tuned to perfection when trying to make some power then just beat around the bush

 

[Quasimondo]

You might be better off using a VPC if you want to go with no MAF.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Yeah, but I also have to debate between eating or driving my car around I'll start with dsmlink. Who knows about the future though. I'm getting a fat paycheck from the govt. here soon but I've tried to budget it the best I can. And when people in the old days use to run 10's and probably faster on VPC's, I don't think dsmlink would really be ancient. Sure it's more than possible of doing what I need. But doubt many people with dsmlink are REALLY pushing the limits of it. <shrug>

 

[sickgsx-316]

hrm...a bit surprised nobody has brought up maftpro here. I kept checking the date to make sure I am not digging up an ancient post but it seems fairly recent. You want to run speed density affordably and easily, and already trust the GM maf translator than you should definitely check this site out...

www.maftpro.com

Whats even cooler is that the guys at DSMchips.com (I spoke with Jeff directly) have plans on writing codes into their chips to work with the maftpro that will allow you to adjust timing.

I was seriously about to buy a DSMlink about 6 months ago till I got wind of this product, now I am torn between a maftpro/dsm chip/speed density combo or going with a proven but dated DSMlink. About the same in price. Maftpro is a bit more expensive considering the couple of extra sensors and intake pipe you need to purchase to do the full s/d conversion, but seems worth it.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Okay well let's just do a maftpro and dsmlink comparison then. Have a feeling the dsmlink is gonna win this one. Also, the dsmlink might be a bit older but they do at least update it. Dunno if they can just throw out updates for the pro. Also, what about idle adjustment and injector sizing? I know the largest size injector I could use with the dsmchip is 800 I believe. Not enough to support the 950cc I'm going with. What else? Sorry, I'm taking my woman out to eat so short on time.

 

[BGGSTin]

You wanna go fast,gotta spend the cash.Once you get into 950s or bigger,big turbos and worried about air flow its time to ditch the piggy backs and go for a stand alone!!!!!!!!

Im working on it now,the head ache will be worth the trouble.Because id rather have a car tuned to perfection when trying to make some power then just beat around the bush

Hmm...After reading what you just said I think I'm now from a suburb of "Not Sure." Which is
"Not Sure: WTF You're talking about."

 

[sickgsx-316]

2400 for AEM? Who the heck is trying to get you for that much?! There is a reputable shop out here selling it and installing it with all the nice extra sensors, removing the maf, and tuning it for you for 1800 bucks! And with what your trying to do, you will likely end up with it anyway. Its really not very hard to use, I've seen it in action and its very user friendly. It creates usable base maps for you with basic inputs. If your not afraid of tuning a DSMlink, than dont be the AEM, its learning curve I would say is only slightly steeper than that of the DSMlink, and worth eating on the cheap for a few extra months. You've spent the cash for all the go fast goodies, now why not save up and buy the product that will get the most/safest hp out of them?

I just emailed Nate at keydriver to see if they one-off chips for larger than 800 injectors. Code is code and they know dsm code very well.

And the maftpro allows for upgrades just like the dsmlink, and has a support forum as well. Im not trying to say that one is better than the other, it just seemed like speed density was pretty high on your chart of needs and this is just another affordable, unmentioned solution for you that nobody has really spoken up about running around here.

Honestly, what are some of the most imortant things in regards to tuning? Timing, AFRs, and knock. Both of these products can tune for them.

**and on a side note I read that keydriver is readily shipping the timing code to work with the maftpro for an extra 25 bucks on the maftpro support forum.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Well this is where I got that price from....

http://www.aempower.com/product_ems_app.asp

Also you said this...

There is a reputable shop out here selling it and installing it with all the nice extra sensors, removing the maf, and tuning it for you for 1800 bucks! And with what your trying to do, you will likely end up with it anyway. Its really not very hard to use, I've seen it in action and its very user friendly. It creates usable base maps for you with basic inputs. If your not afraid of tuning a DSMlink, than dont be the AEM, its learning curve I would say is only slightly steeper than that of the DSMlink, and worth eating on the cheap for a few extra months. You've spent the cash for all the go fast goodies, now why not save up and buy the product that will get the most/safest hp out of them?

For starters, I've never even touched or seen anyone with dsmlink or aem. Also, the dsm crowd out here isn't big at ALL compared to other places. Just trying to get a meet together and have more than 10 cars is hard enough. Then try and get someone with EITHER the dsmlink OR aem would be next to impossible. I wanna set it up myself (cause I don't think there's anyone else out here that can do it for me) and wanna do my own tuning (cause once again, I don't think anyone else out here will have the experience).

All I've read about on here is how it's harder to tune with aem and most people having someone else do it. You're saying it's not that hard. Hmmmm....and me having experience with neither, I'm up in the air.

 

[SlowImport]

Well this is where I got that price from....

http://www.aempower.com/product_ems_app.asp

Also you said this...


For starters, I've never even touched or seen anyone with dsmlink or aem. Also, the dsm crowd out here isn't big at ALL compared to other places. Just trying to get a meet together and have more than 10 cars is hard enough. Then try and get someone with EITHER the dsmlink OR aem would be next to impossible. I wanna set it up myself (cause I don't think there's anyone else out here that can do it for me) and wanna do my own tuning (cause once again, I don't think anyone else out here will have the experience).

All I've read about on here is how it's harder to tune with aem and most people having someone else do it. You're saying it's not that hard. Hmmmm....and me having experience with neither, I'm up in the air.

You can find some info about the AEM EMS at www.roadraceengineering.com They also sell it. Also www.hopupracing.com sells the AEM for pretty cheap. If you think about what the AEM has to offer its actually pretty reasonable price. There are many tuners out there. Finding one that you trust is the big deal. Just remember DSMLink just like AEM EMS is only as good as the tuner.

Here is some examples of what AEM/Good Tuner combo can do.

http://www.garagedefeat.com/videos/Curt_Brown10.92@124_StockTurbo.wmv

check it out a "stock turbo" Evo vs. the "GT35R turbo" Evo. I think this says it all on what Dan S. and the AEM can do.

Also check out all testimonials of what people have said about John Reed and the AEM EMS have done.

http://www.torquefreaks.com/testimonials.php

Im not trying to make a debate of who is better, John or Dan, Im just showing you how the AEM is a the best mod you can do. That is as long as your tuner is good.

check out how much power John got out of a stock Viper. The only mod is the AEM and him tunning it.

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/videos/aemviperondyno.wmv

Another thing to look at is. With the AEM you will ditch the MAF all together. So if you are having a hard time to justify it then look at it this way.

1. You wont have to buy a 3" GM Maf
2. You wont have to buy a MAF Translator
3. Even with DSMLink you have to buy the translator and bigger MAF stuff.
4. AEM makes for a much cleaner install
5. With AEM you have launch control
6. Dont have to buy a boost controller, the AEM EMS has it already!
7. Have many different maps so you can run 91 octane, 93 octane, or even Race gas.
8. If you ever want to run Nitrous AEM has all the stuff you need to run it safely.
9. You can run as big of an injector as you want. buy big ones once, SAVES MONEY!
10. You dont have to worry about maxing out any MAF since you will have a MAP sensor.

Its your car, but I would hate for you to jump into this not knowing what the AEM has to offer. there are many more things the AEM has to offer that I have not listed also.

Do some research on both items. Im sure once you do you will see where Im coming from. just think of it this way. If you save up for an extra month you will have the AEM for much longer then a month and you will have a lot more flexability down the road.

goodluck with your choice,
Josh

 

[1990EclipseGSX]

1. You wont have to buy a 3" GM Maf

You don't "have to buy a 3" GM MAF to run DSMLink

2. You wont have to buy a MAF Translator

You don't "have" to buy the translator eiither. For now you can run a FAKE MAF, but V3 should have built in MAF translation, whenever it finally comes out.

3. Even with DSMLink you have to buy the translator and bigger MAF stuff.

WRONG! With FAKE MAF, you don't need either of these.

4. AEM makes for a much cleaner install

What is cleaner that replacing the chip in the stock ECU?

5. With AEM you have launch control

You have fully programmable stutterbox and No Lift To Shift w/ the link as well

6. Dont have to buy a boost controller, the AEM EMS has it already!

I would be very surprised if the AEM could control boost on a car that does not use a wastegate solenoid controlled by the ECU, but I will have to research this more.

7. Have many different maps so you can run 91 octane, 93 octane, or even Race gas.

I can save infinite maps to my palm or laptop, and load them in a matter of seconds with DSMLink

8. If you ever want to run Nitrous AEM has all the stuff you need to run it safely.

Again, DSMLink has FULL nitrous control. You set the RPM range, TPS requirements, tell it to shut off above a certain knock count, and you can tell it how much timing to retard while you are spraying. This can also be used to run numerous other things, including WI, or dual stage boost control.

9. You can run as big of an injector as you want. buy big ones once, SAVES MONEY!

Same with the Link.

10. You dont have to worry about maxing out any MAF since you will have a MAP sensor.

You don't have to worry about this w/ DSMLink either. You can make it run a crude speed density system based on volumetric efficiency, and if you have a MAP sensor, it will take this into account too. You just have to make it switch over before you max out your MAF.



Why again is AEM worth three times the price?

Chris

 

[WikedSicc]

1. AEM controll boost clear over 40psi with the gm boost solenoid.
2. I don't see dsm link controlling a dual staged injector setup
3. I would like to see dsm link handle 1600cc/min injectors
4. Biggest advantage is the drivablity, WOT is WOT. Many can tune this. The daily drivability is where AEM shines.

 

[1990EclipseGSX]

1. AEM controll boost clear over 40psi with the gm boost solenoid.
2. I don't see dsm link controlling a dual staged injector setup
3. I would like to see dsm link handle 1600cc/min injectors
4. Biggest advantage is the drivablity, WOT is WOT. Many can tune this. The daily drivability is where AEM shines.

So, you have to wire in a GM boost solenoid to control boost, correct?

No, Link will not control a dual injector setup.

Believe it or not, there are plenty of people running 1600cc injectors w/ DSMLink.

I have never driven a car with AEM, so I cannot say that the driveability is any better with one or the other, but I know I drive my car 70+ miles a day with 750's cc injectors and a 2.3L, and I get 25 mpg consistently with no drivability issues... Given this, I would say the Link does just fine. I'm sure nothing will change when I install my 950cc injectors at the end of the week.


In the end, yes, AEM is a *better* engine management system. Given the costs involved and the added complexity of setting up base maps, however, I do not think it is the best engine management system available for a daily driven car.

I think DSMLink is a more than capable engine management system for any DSM that is going to be daily driven. If you are building a strict autocross or drag only project, however, there are definite advantages to the AEM.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

1. You wont have to buy a 3" GM Maf
2. You wont have to buy a MAF Translator
3. Even with DSMLink you have to buy the translator and bigger MAF stuff.

Already have this in the car as is so no worries about buying it. It's already there.

4. AEM makes for a much cleaner install

Well, if I wanna shoot for much of a cleaner install than I'm already getting (abs delete, cruise control delete, etc.), to do this I'll have to buy new pipes which wouldn't require the use of a gm maf.

5. With AEM you have launch control

As someone already mentioned, it already has this.

6. Dont have to buy a boost controller, the AEM EMS has it already!

I dunno much about this part but I also already have a boost controller so dunno why I'd need this.

7. Have many different maps so you can run 91 octane, 93 octane, or even Race gas.
8. If you ever want to run Nitrous AEM has all the stuff you need to run it safely.

As someone already mentioned, dsmlink already has this capability.

9. You can run as big of an injector as you want. buy big ones once, SAVES MONEY!

The biggest I plan to run is 950cc's and know dsmlink will handle this very well.

10. You dont have to worry about maxing out any MAF since you will have a MAP sensor.

And I guess I apparently don't have to worry about this either if it'll do a switchover.

Alright, now let's just say I'm considering between the 2 (I feel I have a fairly open mind about things). After what I've stated above, can someone tell me why the AEM would be better to buy over Dsmlink? What additional features would I get from AEM that'd outweigh the benefits of buying the Dsmlink? Since people are saying AEM's are better than Dsmlink, gimme a break down as to why? I've searched but haven't really found much after all the threads I've read thru.

And as for MAFT PRO, I'm not even interested. I'd just get AEM before getting that thing so just count that out.

P.S. If you're gonna post about better features that AEM has, it'd be helpful if you knew what Dsmlink has or doesn't have instead of wasting anyone's time and just being contradicted. Thank you!

 

[WikedSicc]

Unless you have worked with an AEM unit, you can not possibly comprehend the capablities of it. With dsm link, can you control warm up fuel trims, idle air control motor, setup your motor for a COP setup, control timing other than at WOT. ....ect Untill you have worked w/ a AEM unit, you will think dsm link is just as good. I have worked with both, dsm link is no where near to the capabilities of AEM. Like I said, the daily driving aspect the AEM cleans up with all the low load adjustments and fuel trims.

 

[dsm-onster]

Unless you have worked with an AEM unit, you can not possibly comprehend the capablities of it. With dsm link, can you control warm up fuel trims, idle air control motor, setup your motor for a COP setup, control timing other than at WOT. ....ect Untill you have worked w/ a AEM unit, you will think dsm link is just as good. I have worked with both, dsm link is no where near to the capabilities of AEM. Like I said, the daily driving aspect the AEM cleans up with all the low load adjustments and fuel trims.

Ok i'm chiming in here. Everyone has good points... But obviously money is an issue with this... SOOOOO. since DSMLink can be had for way less AND it will let users run in the 9s.

So, why get AEM EMS? AEM EMS is infinismally useful. It truely does have more control.

But DSMLink has enough control for 9 second cars. So, to the original poster, get AEM if you plan on having the fastest DSM on the planet. Go DSMLink if you plan on never going past 9 seconds in the 1320.

DSMLink can get you on the road in half the time, if you've never tuned AEM EMS before.

What does the original poster want? If you want a 10 second car, DSMLink will get you there faster because you'll have the money to get other upgrades now instead of waiting because you dumped an extra $1000 into an ecu that you will never see the full potential. It's like getting a huge turbo. Why suffer through the lag if you're never going to get enough fuel to use a Hybrid super turbo? get an evo3 16g instead.

NOTE: I have never used AEM EMS. I have never needed to. will you need it? Get AEM EMS if it has what you need that DSMLink doesn't.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Unless you have worked with an AEM unit, you can not possibly comprehend the capablities of it. With dsm link, can you control warm up fuel trims, idle air control motor, setup your motor for a COP setup, control timing other than at WOT. ....ect Untill you have worked w/ a AEM unit, you will think dsm link is just as good. I have worked with both, dsm link is no where near to the capabilities of AEM. Like I said, the daily driving aspect the AEM cleans up with all the low load adjustments and fuel trims.

Okay, being that "currently" I've never used neither Dsmlink nor AEM, would you please explain to me what the benefits of some of those features are? I mean why would I need warm up fuel trims? And would having control of the iac motor be for something such as getting rid of a stock throttle body which would maybe eliminate the iac? What's a COP setup? Not sure why I'd even wanna be controlling my timing at other than WOT Figured that's where the knock would start coming on anyway.

Ya'll could sway me to AEM but just dunno yet. Also wondering exactly how long it'd take me to start getting use to it. One thing I'm scared about is that this is gonna be used on a brand new motor, tranny, etc. So yeah, that'd have me really nervous right there.

As for dsmlink being cheaper and being able to save for other mods, well, that's not gonna be much of an issue for me. Really, I'll have just about every mod in my car that I need other than maybe some minor stuff (aftermarket sway bar, bushings, brake upgrades, etc.). But all the go fast stuff WILL be there.

Okay, let's set money aside, ease of use and being able to set it up and tune ***MYSELF*** is my biggest concern as well as not blowing up my brand new motor or taking a year to figure the thing out.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Finally found the AEM unit on the RRE site (didn't know it was under the new products section) and like the $1600 price WAAAY better than the $2400. But hate that the forums aren't up on the website so it's kinda hard to do much actual research on it or get help if it's needed. I've heard it's been down for awhile. Anyone heard anything about when the forum is suppose to be back up?

Also, exactly what sensors would I need to buy. I know the 3.5 or 5 bar sensor (not sure which would be better) and 2g knock sensor. Would I need the GM Air Intake Temperature Sensor, 125 psi Fuel/Oil Pressure Sensor, and EGT Sensor (RTD Type) Kit? Does it log fuel or oil pressure? Does the EGT sensor go to my egt gauge AND the aem unit? What exactly would I need with this? Thanks!